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UA CEO Still Interested In CO Merger  
User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 15190 times:

From the Financial Times

Glenn Tilton, chairman and chief executive of United Airlines, says there may be benefits in revisiting merger talks with Continental Airlines, since the market approved of Delta's takeover of Northwest. "The market capitalization of Delta is approximately twice the combined market capitalization of United and Continental," he said. "The investor seems to have spoken. The market seems to have suggested that scope and scale in a global business are important."


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/0d6d9ef4-1...3-00144feab49a.html?nclick_check=1
-----------

How likely are UA and CO to get past the obstacles that prevented a merger before? I believe the key issues were surviving mgmt team, location, and name.

[Edited 2010-02-23 11:15:03 by srbmod]

150 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3602 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 15173 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
How likely are UA and CO to get past the obstacles that prevented a merger before? I believe the key issues were surviving mgmt team, location, and name.

I don't think those were the main stumbling blocks.

Ownership percentages, debt levels, and workforce integration seem to me to be the more difficult hurdles to overcome.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 15092 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
From the Financial Times

Glenn Tilton, chairman and chief executive of United Airlines, says there may be benefits in revisiting merger talks with Continental Airlines, since the market approved of Delta's takeover of Northwest. "The market capitalization of Delta is approximately twice the combined market capitalization of United and Continental," he said. "The investor seems to have spoken. The market seems to have suggested that scope and scale in a global business are important."

-----------

How likely are UA and CO to get past the obstacles that prevented a merger before? I believe the key issues were surviving mgmt team, location, and name.

I recall you losing a certain bet against Jacobin777....

Anyway, I don't see a merger between the two until the economy starts picking up again and the balance sheets for both companies improve.

[Edited 2010-02-23 10:07:24]


"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlinecba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 15078 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):

How likely are UA and CO to get past the obstacles that prevented a merger before? I believe the key issues were surviving mgmt team, location, and name.
Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 1):
Ownership percentages, debt levels, and workforce integration seem to me to be the more difficult hurdles to overcome.

If I remember correctly, one of the major issues was in fact management. CO's management wanted to be the ones in charge (and from their track record since the Bethune era, they should be), however Tilton did not want to cede the reins.

UA's finances were another issue...

Now that Kellner is gone and Smisek is in charge at CO, it will be interesting to see if the discussions pick up again.


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2455 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 15037 times:

Would any divestiture of routes be required?


The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineFlyIGuy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1158 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 14969 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 4):
Would any divestiture of routes be required?

Why would they need to? They only have a hand full of overlaping routes and they are the HUB to HUB routes and the Hawaii routes from California. I still wonder what HUBs will stay Hubs and what ones will become focus cities or just abandoned...Look at the DL/NWA merger...They swore up and down that they wouldn't need to cut flights but alas look at CVG and MEM dwindle in favor of DTW and ATL ...

Just my 0.02



The opinions I post are of mine and mine alone, not of the airline I work for.
User currently offlinebiggsfo From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 14944 times:

Quoting FlyIGuy (Reply 5):
I still wonder what HUBs will stay Hubs and what ones will become focus cities or just abandoned...

Cleveland will be drawn down in favor of Chicago. The bigger issue will be addressing the efficiencies surrounding EWR and IAD. Arguably both are sustainable on their own merits, but I can see some flights, especially feeder to international, being cut in one over the other.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11955 posts, RR: 62
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 14895 times:

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Looking from a purely network perspective, a combined United-Continental would be a monumental force to be reckoned with. They would not only have sheer size to rival (actually top) new Delta, but they would have far, far better hubs spread over a far superior geographic distribution around the country.

Newark and Dulles would be a phenomenal one-two punch for flying up and down the east coast and to Europe, Chicago and Houston are perfect mid-continent hubs, Denver is the 800lb gorilla of the Rocky Mountain region, and San Francisco and LAX are the single best hubs for the West Coast, Hawaii, Pacific and Asia.

Wow - what a national and global network that would be.

Quoting cba (Reply 3):
CO's management wanted to be the ones in charge (and from their track record since the Bethune era, they should be)

Agreed.


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 14808 times:

Quoting FlyIGuy (Reply 5):
They swore up and down that they wouldn't need to cut flights but alas look at CVG and MEM dwindle in favor of DTW and ATL ...

MEM has grown since the merger of DL/NW.

With a UA/CO merger, there's no doubt that CLE will be shed (if CO doesn't shed it first). It would be an interesting force, a merger UA/CO, a formidable challenger to DL's reign. It would also force AA to merge with someone to stay competitive. This would no doubt be a game changer in the US airline industry; unfortunately I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

Jeremy


User currently offlinejayeshrulz From India, joined Apr 2007, 1029 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 14781 times:

UA please be away from CO.I love CO and will hate if you put your dirty hands in them. :P


Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
User currently offlinecba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 14748 times:

Quoting biggsfo (Reply 6):
Cleveland will be drawn down in favor of Chicago. The bigger issue will be addressing the efficiencies surrounding EWR and IAD. Arguably both are sustainable on their own merits, but I can see some flights, especially feeder to international, being cut in one over the other.

CLE is almost to the point of RJ-only service as is... and will likely go the way of CVG.

There is certainly enough O&D in both the NY/NJ and DC/MD/VA areas to justify holding onto both EWR and IAD hubs. I don't see much changing at those two hubs.

IAH, ORD, DEN and SFO also go unchanged.

The network overlaps perfectly, except for CLE.

The fleet would be more complicated on the narrow body end... and of course the combined airline would have to determine if it wants to go 2 or 3 class. UA probably makes a lot of money selling F seats to LHR and Asia, however CO and DL have proved that a solid BusinessFirst or BizElite product can be very competitive.


User currently offlinebiggsfo From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 14693 times:

Quoting cba (Reply 10):
The network overlaps perfectly, except for CLE.

Agreed, except there will still be a big hole in their network for the Southeastern US.


User currently offlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 792 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 14694 times:

Quoting cba (Reply 10):
The fleet would be more complicated on the narrow body end... and of course the combined airline would have to determine if it wants to go 2 or 3 class. UA probably makes a lot of money selling F seats to LHR and Asia, however CO and DL have proved that a solid BusinessFirst or BizElite product can be very competitive.

Not just the narrow body end. The 757/767 fleets have different engines plus the addition of -300s or -400s depending on which side you come from. 777s have different engines between both companies. So you'd end up with a pilot group having A319/320 fleet, 737 fleet, 757/767 fleet that would have 757-200s with differing engines, 757-300, 767-200, 767-300 and 767-400. 777 with different engines. While the fleets are probably big enough to justify, the 757/767 fleet would have to undergo some staffing changes from what is the norm now at either company.


User currently offlineNW From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 155 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 14611 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 8):
MEM has grown since the merger of DL/NW.

  


User currently offlineCARST From Germany, joined Jul 2006, 836 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 14576 times:

I know similiar purposes have been brought up before, but what is about a triple-merger of UA , CO and US ?


If CO and UA merge US seems to be the one left out. And I could imagine them searching for an airline to merge with. Someone like the new merged CO - UA ... or perhaps AA.


Not to hijack this thread, but it is no coincidence that all legacy carriers are thinking about mergers. DL and NW just started it and the others seem to follow.
There seems to be a significant size for airlines to survive in the deregulated market and the existing legacy carriers seem to be under that significant size to survive on their own in the long-run.


User currently offlineDualQual From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 792 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 14448 times:

Quoting CARST (Reply 14):
I know similiar purposes have been brought up before, but what is about a triple-merger of UA , CO and US ?

US still hasn't figured out their merger with AWA. I don't think anyone is interested in taking on that mess.


User currently offlinejustloveplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1065 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 14421 times:

The doubling for market cap for similar consolidated size and assets is a big deal. Smisek has said he is a fudiciary in regards to this. Smisek and Kellner said when they left UA standing at the alter that they finally just couldn't take the risk. I know this isn't what Bethune and everybody has said, but what CO has said publicly seems to make the most sense. I would think the management structure would have been decided early and the due dilligence the latter activity. If UA keeps performing, therefore, this merger will happen, both stockholder communities will demand it. 100% value for combining? A fudiciary can't responsably ignore that.

User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7557 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14404 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
How likely are UA and CO to get past the obstacles that prevented a merger before?

I believe one issue that has been overlooked has been WILL the DOJ actually approve such a merger... especially given the current administration and congressional make-up?

Keep in mind that the back in 2000/2001, the DOJ flat out rejected UA merging with a smaller (pre-HP) US; the AA/TW merger was still fairly fresh at the time. CO is certainly larger than US was then and now; so what makes people think that the DOJ would give this even larger merger a pass this time?

The only way I see this happening would be if one of the carriers (either CO or UA) was on the verge of not bankrupcy but LIQUIDATION.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineArt at ISP From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 183 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14391 times:

I am of the opinion that UA/CO will happen some time before end of year. US will then be the odd man out. I am not sure how serious Tilton is about staying on, though, as I am sure he can be paid to go away. In all his time at UA, he still knows next to nothing about running an airline, while CO has just about the best management of ANY legacy carrier.

Jeff Smisek has already been quoted as saying that he might be willing to revisit a merger with UA. Perhaps Larry Kellner's opposition to mergers may have contributed to his moving on....?

In any event, a UA/CO combination would be a powerhouse, a significant threat to DL, and would likely leave US out in left field blowing in the wind........that company is a mess right now, and brings no value to any potential merger at this time...


User currently offlinebiggsfo From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2950 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14391 times:

With this all said, I wonder if AA would make a counter bid for UA? They could definitely agree to significantly reduce Chicago, but I can't see them sitting by. Their networks (minus Chicago) are just as complimentary - if not more so with the Miami hub.

User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14389 times:

Quoting cba (Reply 3):
If I remember correctly, one of the major issues was in fact management.

yes... which one survives. The new CO regime may well be more willing to figure out how to make a deal.

Quoting cba (Reply 3):
Now that Kellner is gone and Smisek is in charge at CO, it will be interesting to see if the discussions pick up again.

agree... ultimately, UA and CO mgmt should be interested in the stockholders' best interest... if a merged airline is worth more than the two individually, then mgmt should be looking at how to move forward

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 2):
I recall you losing a certain bet against Jacobin777....

Jacobin and others seem to think I lost a bet... but my position was exactly validated that AA/BA WAS in fact treated differently than other alliances..... we can discuss that individually if you would like but the evidence is overwhelming that AA/BA was treated differently.
You can let me know what other issues are at stake.... or how it ties into CO/UA

Quoting commavia (Reply 7):
Looking from a purely network perspective, a combined United-Continental would be a monumental force to be reckoned with.

you bet it would... and that is precisely why DL is moving very quickly to beef up its presence on the west coast and in NYC which is where the greatest differences will take place.... a combined UA/CO will have Chicago which is a viable market but in terms of total midwest revenue, DL is still larger..... DTW plus MSP and all of their spokes generate more revenue than either UA or AA does at ORD. CO is not large enough to move the needle in the midwest....
but I agree w/ you that UA plus CO will be a powerful force and will move them forward.
In terms of Europe and Africa/Middle East, DL and UA/CO are about the same size.
in Latin America, since CO and DL are pretty closely matched in size right now, the addition of UA will add more muscle, although CO and UA concentrate their efforts in different parts of Latin America w/ UA stronger in deep S. America.
Also, CO doesn't add a whole lot more presence in the top US business markets to what UA already has other than in CO hubs....

Quoting CARST (Reply 14):



I know similiar purposes have been brought up before, but what is about a triple-merger of UA , CO and US ?

doubtful it could happen because US plus CO plus UA is too large in both NYC and WAS. UA tried to merge w/ US once before and ran into troubles because of WAS.

IF US were able to do the slot deal w/ DL, the problems w/ NYC would be taken care of but WAS would only become more concentrated.

Quoting CARST (Reply 14):
Not to hijack this thread, but it is no coincidence that all legacy carriers are thinking about mergers. DL and NW just started it and the others seem to follow.

Analysts said several years ago that the US industry needed to consolidate. There were several sets of talks w/ the DL/NW talks the only ones that led to a merger. It is not certain that any one else can overcome the obstacles that a merger presents.... but it is also clear that alliances alone do not provide what is necessary to compete against a merged airline.
Whether people want to admit it or not, the merged DL/NW is a force to be reckoned w/ in the industry. The fact that UA's CEO is willing to go on record saying that a combined DL/NW is worth more than UA and CO are by a factor of 2 is indication that investors do recognize the value of mergers.


Of course the question in all of this is what AA does....


User currently offlinecba From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 4531 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14362 times:

Quoting CARST (Reply 14):
Not to hijack this thread, but it is no coincidence that all legacy carriers are thinking about mergers. DL and NW just started it and the others seem to follow.
There seems to be a significant size for airlines to survive in the deregulated market and the existing legacy carriers seem to be under that significant size to survive on their own in the long-run.

We've been talking about how in the long run there needs to be industry consolidation in order for the legacies to survive since post 2001 era... I think we're beginning to see this come to fruition.

A merged UA/CO would put US in an interesting position as the odd man out in the alliance... similar to that of the one of CO when DL and NW merged.

I don't think the DOJ would approve of a UA/CO/US triple merger, and frankly I can't see what US brings to the table for UA and CO...

-UA-CO would already have a strong presence on the east coast... DCA and LGA slots are US's only real asset there.

-In the West, PHX doesn't bring much to the table as UA is much stronger at SFO and DEN.

-Internationally, US is already the weakest link, and every destination that they serve is already done so by either CO, UA or both.

-CLT would provide a good Southeastern hub for UA-CO, however it could be argued that they have the region covered between IAH and IAD.

If Anything, US makes a better match for AA, but I don't see that happening any time soon... for the time being AA is large enough to compete.

Call me crazy, but I am going to toss this out as an oddball scenario: a AS-US merger could work...

Pros:
-Hubs at ANC, SEA, PHX, CLT, PHL... excellent geographic coverage save for the mid west
-US acquiring AS gives them the west coast pacific gateway that they're currently lacking... SEA
-The A332 and A333 can reach NRT, ICN, PVG and PEK from SEA. US could start Asia service soon instead of having to wait for the A350.
-Strong East Coast presence through PHL and CLT.
-Enhanced West coast presence with hubs at SEA and PHX with a focus city in LAS... would better compete with UA/CO at DEN/SFO and DL/NW at SLC/LAX/

Cons:
-Fleet: An all 737NG fleet vs. an A320 fleet
-Totally different airlines... AS is not a legacy and has a totally different business model
-I'm sure there are many others...

I know it sounds crazy, but I think it could work!


User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2176 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14358 times:

Quoting DualQual (Reply 15):
US still hasn't figured out their merger with AWA. I don't think anyone is interested in taking on that mess.

Actually it's just the east pilot group holding up their seniority integration. Otherwise, everything is already complete for the merger. I do agree that those guys make any merger with US toxic for the next 3-6 years when a lot of them finally retire.


User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3168 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14268 times:

Quoting jayeshrulz (Reply 9):
Quoting biggsfo (Reply 11):
Quoting cba (Reply 21):
Pros:
-Hubs at ANC, SEA, PHX, CLT, PHL... excellent geographic coverage save for the mid west
-US acquiring AS gives them the west coast pacific gateway that they're currently lacking... SEA
-The A332 and A333 can reach NRT, ICN, PVG and PEK from SEA. US could start Asia service soon instead of having to wait for the A350.
-Strong East Coast presence through PHL and CLT.
-Enhanced West coast presence with hubs at SEA and PHX with a focus city in LAS... would better compete with UA/CO at DEN/SFO and DL/NW at SLC/LAX/

It would be perfect. DL would simply go mad thouugh.



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6525 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 14216 times:

Quoting WorldTraveler (Thread starter):
How likely are UA and CO to get past the obstacles that prevented a merger before? I believe the key issues were surviving mgmt team, location, and name.

As I remember it, none of those issues were ever mentioned by either UA or CO. Those were only brought up on A.net which is hardly an official source.


25 CODC10 : The next year of combined DL/NW operations will be a telling factor. If DL can navigate their way to sustained profitability, CO/UA is all but a done
26 hondah35 : I'm not sure why. With the ability of airline earnings to swing widely from profit to significant loss from one quarter to the next, as well as the r
27 MoMan : US/AA makes no sense at all. Not only does DFW not need a reliever, AA does not need the headaches that a US merger would bring. Not only is there no
28 AADC10 : That is certainly not true. Tilton was brought in specifically to turn UA around and get it ready for a purchase or merger. The surprise has been tha
29 UALORD : I'm all up for the merger (yes!! NRSA to Fiji!!!) but I think it would help both airlines cause UA is in financial trouble and would be better. I know
30 United1 : Actually is it true...one of the biggest (if not the biggest) sticking point to the merger was that UAs Management team was not willing to step aside
31 Post contains links WorldTraveler : AA and UA overlap in far more than just ORD. UA is the 2nd largest carrier at ORD, they both duplicate transcon networks although not to the same deg
32 United1 : I think you meant to type that AA is the second largest airline at ORD...
33 Seatback : I agree too. Tilton stands to rake in the cash should a merger happen. No wonder he wants a merger. I also think that CO would be the surviving manag
34 cba : Are they? I'd be highly surprised if they are... off the top of my head, AA serves many more destinations from JFK, ORD and DFW than US does through
35 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : Actually WT, it was about UA merging with a carrier by the end of 2008 (a "bet" which we made in early 2008).... While I'm not saying they can't buil
36 avek00 : Yes.
37 MoMan : No they won't. AA can be a very nice (and profitable) #3 carrier. Their LatAm and LHR operations are worth their weight in gold. AA hasn't expanded m
38 USAirALB : and larger in terms of destinations in the Northeast, and Southeast
39 Tommy767 : I think with CO's new CEO in charge and this little scuff of a hint from Tilton, I'm pretty sure both CEO's are eager for a UA/CO merger to come true.
40 Post contains images cba : AA will be doing quite well for itself once it gets its house in order internally. AA is competitive with DL at LAX and JFK, holds its own against UA
41 peanuts : DL and NW had more in common before their merger than UA and CO do currently. This one is a bit more complicated, internally as well. The DOT decision
42 Post contains images AirframeAS : I thought CO CEO Jeff Semisk (sp?) has stated that he preferred to not merge with anyone (including UA) and remain a stand-alone carrier. Am I correct
43 C010T3 : I really thought that the US-DL deal was a good preparation for a US-AA merger. By shedding LGA, the merger wouldn't face so many hurdles to be appro
44 MoMan : Richard Anderson said he wasn't going to DL to do a NW merger, either.
45 PSA146 : If Tilton has any confidence in a merger with CO, he sure has a funny way of showing it since he sold 109,000 of his shares of UAL stock in the last 2
46 Tommy767 : No. Jeff said he would reconsider the UA/CO merger. Nothing definite though.
47 avek00 : Highly doubtful. There's little money to be made -- and a lot of money to be lost -- for a legacy airline in greatly expanding intra-West Coast opera
48 Post contains images AirframeAS : I swear I read that in an edition of the CO newsletter that he preferred to remain independent. That is in the issue where they introduced Semisek as
49 Tommy767 : I remember reading in a WSJ interview on 12/31/09 that he would reconsider. Maybe he's saying all sorts of things to please everybody.
50 Post contains links LDVAviation : Jeff Smisek on Delta/Northwest: "We will see how they do. That was going to be a merger of addition that seems to be now pretty much a merger of subt
51 commavia : Agreed. As many of us have long contended, CLE would serve no meaningful purpose in a merged CO-UA situation. All the traffic flows it now handles co
52 AirframeAS : Or maybe he has not really made up his mind, perhaps?
53 ca2ohHP : PIT has not had service to Europe via US for years, maybe you meant PHL? US serves 18 destinations in continental Europe, 6 Seasonally. I believe AA
54 dsuairptman : A very bad idea all around. CO is a great airline with a good culture and treats the customer right. UA is a joke and horrible image with managment th
55 CODC10 : Yes. CO/UA will become a reality once DL/NW start outperforming the industry and taking market share from Continental and United. If that happens, a
56 Tommy767 : Oh com'on. Now you just sound bitter. UA has indeed improved since early last decade. Go book a flight and see for yourself.
57 FFlyerworld : UA and CO and AA and US will need to do something by mid 2011 to compete effectively against the New Delta. We will be seeing a great deal of merging
58 peanuts : Obviously it wouldn't be for "intra-west coast" operations per se. Whomever is left out in the cold (without AS) would be forced to do some expanding
59 JCS17 : Continental doesn't want United's problems dumped on their lap, especially in the worst economic downturn since the early 80s. Continental wants their
60 AADC10 : I have not seen anything that would indicate that Tilton would not step aside. Perhaps the union representative on the board and some executives that
61 DualQual : CO had 8 772s on order and cancelled 5. It's not the 777s that they'd be after. Mgmt seems content to bet the farm on the 787.
62 GlobalCabotage : CO / UA would be a good fit. Dump some aircraft and some ops (sorry CLE), and things would work nicely. Hearing that DL owns the midwest with DTW and
63 Tommy767 : UA would not dump either. They would have a truly unique bi-coastal dual hub setup with SFO being the largest in the west and EWR (i'd assume) the la
64 rjpieces : Perhaps this deserves a separate thread, but any educated guesses about how a merged UA & CO might will approach getting a consistent fleet? Insta
65 SESGDL : An AA/UA merger would never be approved. Far too large and with significant network overlap: ORD, LAX, transcon markets, etc. This argument is made c
66 ORD2PHL : Couldn't disagree with this more, I would take UA's Asian gatewawy at SFO anyday over the Mexico travel at PHX. SFO gives you strong west-east domest
67 Post contains images OA412 : Which is pretty much what everyone expected to happen regardless of what DL/NW execs were saying about the merger. Of course Smisek is going to use t
68 snn2003 : Has anyone seen what a combined route map would look like? It would be interesting to see the domestic and international stuff all in one place. On an
69 Zone1 : Here's how you fix that problem: You tell the White House that the headquarters of the new company would stay in Chicago. Also, throw in rent for a c
70 FlyDeltaJets87 : Please don't do it CO! PLEASE! Please do not ruin your great product and bring yourself down to the God-awful product that is United Airlines. You hav
71 CatIII : A bit off topic, but a CO-AS tie up makes a lot of sense to me as well. All Boeing fleets, and AS provides a N/S west coast route structure that is la
72 MoMan : This makes no sense. If you were going to make a joke about the political climate, then focus on the Union jobs that would be lost through a merger.
73 CODC10 : Don't you mean the former? Even with UA's partial share of the Chicago market, it is almost certainly a higher-yielding operation than MSP/DTW. O&
74 OA412 : Yes I did mean the former. With regards to yields, I'm not sure if ORD is necessarily a higher yielding or more profitable operation than MSP or DTW.
75 MasseyBrown : These sales are probably option related - selling some shares he bought much cheaper for the cash to exercise more low priced options. It doesn't nec
76 GayStudPilot : [Edited 2010-02-23 22:25:07]
77 DocLightning : I agree. I flew F on UA and I'd rather ride Y on CO.
78 Post contains images AirframeAS : AS is more focused in their "codeshare whoring" practices as of late. And it is working very well for them, that is why merging with AS is pretty dif
79 Crosscheck007 : Willis Tower, named for London-based insurance broker Willis Group Holdings, Ltd. Cheers, 007
80 United1 : I've not seen anything suggesting that he wants to do that....
81 Burkhard : Of course he is. He will make more personal profit from such a merger than all those that read this post get together in all their lives...
82 United1 : So would the CEOs of any airline involved in a merger...you really think that COs CEOs don't have golden parachutes?
83 UALWN : It seems to me that people haven't been flying UA that much lately. I have been UA's 1P for the past I don't know how many years, and I don't underst
84 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Its been almost 10 years since that original plan occurred, he's not getting any younger. He can leave UA today if he wants. Maybe he actually likes
85 manfredj : Well put. Truly an oil and water combination. Of course UA wants a merger with CO, why not put all your problems on a well run airline who has no iss
86 Burkhard : Not only these...
87 Jacobin777 : I think they would be too dominant in the South American/Latin American routes......also, I don't see how management would merge....seems a bit "stic
88 xXMHxLHx5LXx : And see your brand go under in a "new" American. Not too many people would remember the "Continental" brand. Well, I don't think UNITED will go in fa
89 incitatus : When are we going to have a thread with the title "CO CEO still interested in UA merger"? Get the idea?
90 CODC10 : While I still believe CO is doing a better job top-to-bottom than UA, I have been thoroughly impressed as of late. Anyone who is referring to UA with
91 Post contains images cba : That's a good assessment... if US's troubles continue I could see AA picking off critical assets through bankruptcy. Typo... meant PHL but typed PIT
92 cba : And on the note of a AA-CO merger... things that will happen before that: 1. The Cowboys and Texans play each other in the Super Bowl 2. The Houston A
93 MasseyBrown : No guts; no air medal. CO, chronically short of widebodies since they dumped the DC-10's in a panic, has not been able to take advantage of every eme
94 tvnwz : A few business associates who used to swear by AA now fly exclusively UA. Most site what UALWN and CODC10 points out. These people log upwards of 150
95 VC10er : I don't get it with CO??? I flew CO on a 777 in Business First last week to LHR and a UA 767 in business back to IAD and UA has a far, far better pro
96 Post contains images cba : I'm a strong CO loyalist and will be the first to admit that the BF product is out of date... fortunately we'll be seeing the full lie flat seats up
97 CODC10 : CO's cancellation of the remaining 767-400ERs on order (10, IIRC) was probably the most short-sighted decision of the Bethune era. I didn't disagree
98 WorldTraveler : .... or followed their business. UA has flirted w/ death so many times, it makes anyone who wants to try to predict things hold off a few more minute
99 Post contains links BlueF9A320 : Well you're in luck! Starting in June all US-LHR flights on CO are going true lie-flat. For the 757 http://forum.scanair.no/showthread.php?t=58735 Fo
100 Post contains images cba : I definitely agree... the DC-10s needed to leave the fleet as soon as possible, especially after the AF Concord incident where a CO DC-10 shed an eng
101 CODC10 : When Bethune canceled the 764 orders, Boeing was still trying to keep the Sonic Cruiser concept afloat. The 7E7/787 was not available at the time. Th
102 AADC10 : That is the right move for CO as they stand now. Its strengths are in South America and 2nd tier European markets, where the 787 would fit in perfect
103 CODC10 : The 787 will have better fuel burn per seat than the 777. Not the 20% improvement over the 767, but likely in the 8-12% range from articles I've read
104 FlyDeltaJets87 : I flew UA last summer July 2008 (seven months ago). Recent enough I would say. And in that one experience, one United employee decided to steal the g
105 Slider : I'd agree with that. Fair indictment there. To be fair, that's also being said in hindsight. For many years, that 764ER was merely a mongrel Boeing--
106 United1 : Expected by whom is the question? My own opinion is that Tilton will leave a combined UA/CO, or sometime in 2011, but my understanding of UA/COs merg
107 PHLBOS : IIRC, the original mission of the 764 was to replace the various CO DC-10s and DL L-1011s that were still in the respective fleets. The main advantag
108 DualQual : I don't think at that time UA was in position to acquire anyone. I think either CO was going to be the acquiring party or it was to be a merger. UA l
109 MasseyBrown : It may have been considered advantageous for various contractual reasons for UA to be the surviving corporate entity. Of course if UA paid out more t
110 incitatus : While in general I agree with your conclusion, a bit of a different perspective can be added to this comparison. A much greater percentage of travele
111 UALWN : Are you sure it was a United employee? Even if it was, you can find that kind of crap anywhere. I have only had once a similar experience: something
112 worldtraveler : undboutedly, top execs will leave either company if they are paid enough money. ... like those multi-billion dollar losses that UA and other major ca
113 MoMan : Not at all, these are only the concerns of the Anet crowd. Management changes and the surviving brand were never the keys to scuttling the deal, it w
114 CODC10 : Your poor experience is certainly a valid reason to discontinue giving business to a carrier, but understand that the unfortunate issues that befell
115 United1 : Y fares are not automatically eligible for E+ it all depends on what your status is with UA.
116 worldtraveler : no, they are valid to the real world. that is your opinion but UA clearly still has considerable value as a franchise.. the fact that you deny it doe
117 yellowtail : I tell you something...UA FF folks are flocking to CO and that is pissing off us loyal CO FFyers....I have flown four segments on CO this week and I
118 Post contains images OA412 : I simply don't see a merger scenario involving UA and CO in which CO would be the surviving brand. UA is a much larger airline with a stronger brand,
119 Post contains images FlyDeltaJets87 : Indeed it does happen elsewhere. But it happened to me on United. Hence my disdain for UA. However, I have a second, longer lasting reason besides th
120 MoMan : The name United will stay. Everything else will be Continental, including most of the management and operational support.
121 OA412 : We hear that a lot, but there is no guarantee of that. Saying that it will all be CO other than the name assumes that CO does everything better than
122 Post contains images United1 : I wouldn't bet on that.... UA has brought some of the best management talent in the industry on-board in the past 18 months a combined UA/CO would be
123 FFlyerworld : This CO / UA talk about a merger may or may not happen. But one thing is a constant - IF and it is a big IF - they agree to merge or an acquisition ta
124 worldtraveler : Agreed.. and remember that in labor issues, it is size that determines the suriviving entity. Even w/ unions that are the same at both CO and UA, the
125 Post contains images Sankaps : Sounds a lot like DL/NW!
126 cba : Mergers and acquisitions are very complicated, and there's an entire slew of legal/anti-trust issues as well as financing issues. On a.net we tend to
127 CODC10 : There is no official policy to upgrade United elite members on Continental-operated flights at present.
128 Post contains links dutchflyboi : That is incorrect. Go to Continentals website and you can see that upgrades are processed in this order on Continental: Continental Platinum Elite Un
129 yellowtail : One of them got my upgrade seat on IAH-BZE this morning.....arrrrrrr!
130 CODC10 : Nope. NO UA elites are being upgraded automatically on Continental at this time. UA isn't even upgrading their own elites automatically yet. Check yo
131 dutchflyboi : That's seems not correct. On CO's website, it does state: OnePass Elite members will be eligible for Unlimited Domestic Upgrades on United effective
132 CODC10 : Believe me, this is most certainly not the case. I can 100% conclusively, definitively, absolutely, positively, completely, thoroughly, without a dou
133 Post contains links United1 : That is correct.... There are no automatic upgrades for UA Elites on CO at this time. If there is a UA elite in CO F class it is because they used mi
134 MasseyBrown : Not true at all, except for some financial mergers.
135 avek00 : There are NO elite upgrades for UA elites on CO flights, or vice versa, at this time. That benefit will not come before mid-2010, as it will be intro
136 worldtraveler : since you cut and pasted part of the response, let me repeat that in labor related mergers, it is very often the largest union that becomes the survi
137 MasseyBrown : Oh, now you add "very often". That's right ... when losing, your approach is to change the terms of the argument.
138 worldtraveler : how about you give us the examples of where a smaler union has been the surviving one?
139 Post contains images nwaesc : Are you sure?
140 MasseyBrown : In current news, Unite HERE was formed by merger and the smaller group, the hotel employees ended up running the combination. In older news the Oil W
141 worldtraveler : not familiar w/ Unite Here but I don't recognize any of those names as being airlines or even companies that are governed by the Railway Labor Act. Ar
142 CODC10 : UA is less than 10% larger than CO in terms of employees, with a similar degree of unionization among the workgroups. It is certainly not a foregone
143 nwaesc : True, though there is a small degree of commonality (ie maintenance at both is IBT, pilots ALPA).
144 worldtraveler : And combining two different unions is probably a messier process than choosing a union for a formerly non-union group for the first time. Nothing is
145 UALWN : But I was able to select a seat in CO's "premium seating" area for my BCN-EWR next week. And it has to be because I'm 1P with UA. So this part of the
146 MasseyBrown : More quibbles and new qualifications. You keep changing the argument.
147 nwaesc : Depends... Some have very clear language regarding it, others don't...
148 MasseyBrown : FWIW, as of the close on Friday, UAUA and CAL stocks had achieved almost exact parity in market cap. UAUA = $2.86 billion and CAL = $2.87 billion. The
149 CODC10 : I agree, but TP and Bonderman are ancient history, over 5 years ago now. I think both carriers will remain independent for at least the next 18 month
150 MasseyBrown : Agreed; measured in airline-years, five is forever. The upshot to me, though, is a presumption that CO will rule the roost in any future deal is no l
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