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ATI Could Mean Miami-Tokyo [article]  
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33053 posts, RR: 71
Posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9755 times:

The article doesn't have much meat to it, but its basiclly saying the obvious: Miami might finally gets it long desired non-stop flight to Tokyo when/if AMR-JAL get ATI and are finally allowed to discuss the possibility with each other.

http://www.miamitodaynews.com/news/100225/story7.shtml

I think it's a given by 2012-13 it will happen with the upcoming JBA, but Seattle-Tokyo will happen on AA/JL first.


a.
132 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2371 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9683 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Thread starter):
I think it's a given by 2012-13 it will happen with the upcoming JBA

If there was ever a 787 route, this is it.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineMastermis From Cayman Islands, joined Apr 2008, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9685 times:

How long would MIA-NRT flight be? Thats will be a looooong flight

M.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9677 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 1):
Quoting mah4546 (Thread starter):
I think it's a given by 2012-13 it will happen with the upcoming JBA

If there was ever a 787 route, this is it.

This route could theoretically be done with a B77E and certainly a B77W, but I do agree, this route is going to be an excellent B787 route...  



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1182 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9549 times:
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From Great Circle Mapper
MIA - NRT non stop is 7436 miles
MIA-ATL-NRT is 7444 miles or a full 8 miles longer
MIA-MSP-NRT is 7451 miles or a full 15 miles longer.
MIA-DTW-NRT is 7542 miles or a full 106 miles longer

If the US govt made it simpler for Latin Americans to transit Miami without the requirement and expense and hassle of getting a US visa, i can see Miami-NRT becoming a viable n/s route, but if we are just talking about O&D from South Florida to Japan I am not sure if there is enough pax count out of the Miami region to justify a n/s.

However if you think about funneling pax from TPA JAX MCO FLL and MIA on well timed flights through easy to connect hubs like ATL, MSP or DTW, this shows th ptential competition and makes the economics of a n/s Miami-NRT a bit more problematic.



The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently onlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2371 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 9499 times:

Quoting Mastermis (Reply 2):
How long would MIA-NRT flight be? Thats will be a looooong flight

According to the GCM its 7436 nm.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
This route could theoretically be done with a B77E

Hmmm. Maybe on paper, but factoring in any headwinds makes a 772LR a better choice.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33053 posts, RR: 71
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9460 times:

Quoting Coronado (Reply 4):
If the US govt made it simpler for Latin Americans to transit Miami without the requirement and expense and hassle of getting a US visa,

This is so overstated all the time. The United States always has been - and continues to be - the main transit point for Latin America-Asia traffic. That has not changed and is not changing.

The fact of the matter is that the majority of the traffic between LatAm and Asia either a) does not need a visa because it is Japan/Korea-originating or b) already holds a multi-year U.S. transit visa.

Quoting Coronado (Reply 4):
but if we are just talking about O&D from South Florida to Japan I am not sure if there is enough pax count out of the Miami region to justify a n/s.

Florida-Tokyo as a whole is a reasonably sized O&D market larger than Washington-Tokyo or Boston-Tokyo; the entire Japan-Florida market accounts for around 140,000 annual O&D bokings.

As the Miami-Tokyo and Orlando-Tokyo (and even Tampa-Tokyo) have significant overlap (i.e. most Japanese tourists who visit Miami also visit Orlando) it is important to look at both markets together to gather traffic potential.

Filling the plane is not the issue here. The issue is getting the right yield mix, which with the 787, might not be a problem.



a.
User currently offlinebiggsfo From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2933 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9316 times:

Think maybe we will see a return or MIA-SEA-NRT with 767/777 mix?

User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9289 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 5):
According to the GCM its 7436 nm.

You've got statue miles there. It's only 6462nm which the 772ER is perfectly capable of.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8493 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 9272 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 6):
This is so overstated all the time. The United States always has been - and continues to be - the main transit point for Latin America-Asia traffic. That has not changed and is not changing.
The fact of the matter is that the majority of the traffic between LatAm and Asia either a) does not need a visa because it is Japan/Korea-originating or b) already holds a multi-year U.S. transit visa.

Really? I would have expected Europe to handle just as many transit passengers between LatAm and Asia. I wonder if the picture would be any different if IB were to expand to Asia, given their wide coverage of S.America.

I do see a disadvantage to using Europe as a connecting point. Most inbound Asian flights arrive early in the morning and flight to the Americas tend to depart in the afternoon and late evening for S.America. This makes for a very long layover in Europe in between flights. The same is tru in reverse, with flights from the Americas arriving early morning and Asian bound flights departing in the evening. This is were the new entrants such as EK and QR have a huge advantage and I can see them having a big impact in the LatAm-Asia market in the future.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9262 times:

Quoting Coronado (Reply 4):

If the US govt made it simpler for Latin Americans to transit Miami without the requirement and expense and hassle of getting a US visa, i can see Miami-NRT becoming a viable n/s route, but if we are just talking about O&D from South Florida to Japan I am not sure if there is enough pax count out of the Miami region to justify a n/s.
Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 5):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 3):
This route could theoretically be done with a B77E

Hmmm. Maybe on paper, but factoring in any headwinds makes a 772LR a better choice.

Of course....a B77L would basically be able to do the route at MTOW...or close to it-but neither AA nor JL plans on purchasing the plane at this point..  ....

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 6):

As the Miami-Tokyo and Orlando-Tokyo (and even Tampa-Tokyo) have significant overlap (i.e. most Japanese tourists who visit Miami also visit Orlando) it is important to look at both markets together to gather traffic potential.

  .......I still believe the B77E, even with its limitations might be able to make the route work.....



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineaddd From United States of America, joined May 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9247 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 6):
This is so overstated all the time. The United States always has been - and continues to be - the main transit point for Latin America-Asia traffic. That has not changed and is not changing.

The fact of the matter is that the majority of the traffic between LatAm and Asia either a) does not need a visa because it is Japan/Korea-originating or b) already holds a multi-year U.S. transit visa.

Would love to see numbers comparing Europe/Middle East vs. U.S. as connection points for LatAm/Asis traffic. As for the US, regardless of the visa issue relevance, there is still an enormous hassle of going through passport control, collecting you luggage, shleppin it thru US customs and rechecking for an onward flight... to me that would be a show stopper, and the advantage of going eastbound obvious.


User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9234 times:

It is most likely that the route will be flown by JAL using their 787-8 equipment. Assuming no more delays to the 787 program, JAL said they expect to begin taking deliveries of 787-8 aircraft in 1Q11. They also said (as recently as last month) these will be used for new route opportunities to North America that would not be profitable with larger equipment or without a JV partner.


Ryan / HKG
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33053 posts, RR: 71
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9237 times:

Quoting addd (Reply 11):
As for the US, regardless of the visa issue relevance, there is still an enormous hassle of going through passport control, collecting you luggage, shleppin it thru US customs and rechecking for an onward flight... to me that would be a show stopper, and the advantage of going eastbound obvious.

I'll take that over the much more inconvenient schedules and generally much longer travel time and required layovers via Europe.

There is no need to re-check bags or re-check in whatsoever. You simply go through customs, drop off your bags right at the end with the airline at the bag drop-off and go on your merry way.

And increasingly countries like the UK and Canada are requiring visas to transit, though I don't believe any Latin American countries are required to yet.

[Edited 2010-02-24 12:37:45]


a.
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9222 times:

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 8):
You've got statue miles there. It's only 6462nm which the 772ER is perfectly capable of.

  

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 10):
.......I still believe the B77E, even with its limitations might be able to make the route work.....

  

Walk in the park for a B77E ! Even with a headwind. Let's not forget that CO sends its B77E on BOM-EWR, which is 12,565km's or 6,784nm's. And EWR-HKG, whic is 12,980 kms or 7,009nm's.

MIA-NRT is 11,968 km's or 6462 nm.





[Edited 2010-02-24 12:45:32]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33053 posts, RR: 71
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9204 times:

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 14):

Walk in the park for a B77E ! Even with a headwind. Let's not forget that CO sends it B77E on BOM-EWR, which is 12,565km's or 6,784nm's.

MIA-NRT is 11,968 km's or 6462 nm.

EWR-BOM is trans-polar.

MIA-NRT would face pretty significant winter headwinds that could create cargo or passenger restrictions during the winter.



a.
User currently offlinethenoflyzone From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 2584 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9175 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 15):
MIA-NRT would face pretty significant winter headwinds that could create cargo or passenger restrictions during the winter.

So would DXB-ATL on DL, or TLV-LAX on EL AL, but those routes (which are longer than MIA-NRT) still operate in winter with the same kind of headwind with B77E. Plus these arent trans-polar Big grin

Thenoflyzone



[Edited 2010-02-24 12:46:37]


us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
User currently offlineaddd From United States of America, joined May 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9157 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 13):
You simply go through customs and drop it off right at the end with the airline

.. which is rechecking them by any other name... and passport queues in Miami - oh, what a great experience for a disriminating interntational traveler to look forward to! Bottom line - it is a bloody hassle


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4033 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9153 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 6):
Filling the plane is not the issue here. The issue is getting the right yield mix, which with the 787, might not be a problem.

Getting the right timing - especially for the MIA departure, is one of the main issues. Too early and there will be few possible connections beyond Florida and southern South America. Too late and all southern South America traffic is lost to other connecting points.



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User currently offlinejfk787nyc From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 812 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8985 times:

Quoting Coronado (Reply 4):
From Great Circle Mapper
MIA - NRT non stop is 7436 miles
MIA-ATL-NRT is 7444 miles or a full 8 miles longer
MIA-MSP-NRT is 7451 miles or a full 15 miles longer.
MIA-DTW-NRT is 7542 miles or a full 106 miles longer

If the US govt made it simpler for Latin Americans to transit Miami without the requirement and expense and hassle of getting a US visa, i can see Miami-NRT becoming a viable n/s route, but if we are just talking about O&D from South Florida to Japan I am not sure if there is enough pax count out of the Miami region to justify a n/s.

However if you think about funneling pax from TPA JAX MCO FLL and MIA on well timed flights through easy to connect hubs like ATL, MSP or DTW, this shows th ptential competition and makes the economics of a n/s Miami-NRT a bit more problematic.

People who say things like this really have no idea what they are talking about.

MIA-NRT travel is a great transit point to Latin America probably the best route out of Asia to fly to Latin America.

Travel from Japan is Visa Free in the United States. Which doesn't make a big issue when traveling to Latin America.
Are there currently any nonstop flight's from Tokyo-Central and South America?

As for people flying from Latin and South America to Tokyo or ASIA!!!! Are business people, People that aren't going to run to America to find a job...People that have something to loose in there countries. The United States issues visa's to people like this with no problems at all. They are not people who are willing to come to the United States to become an illegal alien to work in a restaurant. These are people that trade with ASIA.

There is traffic for this route and it is def justifiable. There is no need for a 787 can't they start this route flying 4 days a week?


User currently offlineCoronado From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1182 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8959 times:
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The simplicity of transiting (not) though Miami may explain the continued success (not) of the Iberia mini hub operation at MIA. Agreed that transiting through Europe can involve some long layovers.

Perhaps the 787 is the game changer. Otherwise I see ORL and MIA as way too much of a tourist seasonal destination to generate a consistent year around decent mix of business versus discount traffic yield.

IMHO you need some consistent business feed from the Asian companies located in the Alabama-South Carolina Kentucky Indiana coridor. Not to much of this is likely to back track all the way to Miami!



The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
User currently offlineaaway From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1536 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8946 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Thread starter):
but Seattle-Tokyo will happen on AA/JL first.

Quick off topic q, Mark - why SEA-TYO first, rather than going double daily SFO-TYO?



With a choice between changing one's mind & proving there's no need to do so, most everyone gets busy on the proof.
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7693 posts, RR: 25
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8907 times:

Quoting aaway (Reply 21):
Quick off topic q, Mark - why SEA-TYO first, rather than going double daily SFO-TYO?

Ive thought many times that with JL/AA ATI, SJC-NRT should come back with a 763.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinesflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1183 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8856 times:

Quoting addd (Reply 17):
.. which is rechecking them by any other name... and passport queues in Miami - oh, what a great experience for a disriminating interntational traveler to look forward to! Bottom line - it is a bloody hassle

but the deep South America flights arrive between 4:30-6:30 in the morning when customs is a breeze. No hassle at all. If the NRT bound flight departs at 9:00 ish, there is plenty of time to go through formalities, get breakfast, stretch, and be on the way. Many of the premium passengers would probably have visas already (as has been mentioned already) have access to the lounges and can really enjoy a nice and easy connection. Also, since the South American flights are red eyes, the delay tends to be minimal unless there are problems at the starting point. I dont know why you say MIA is any more complicated than ATL or any other US airport. People do it every day by the thousands!


User currently offlinebiggsfo From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2933 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8727 times:

Quoting aaway (Reply 21):
why SEA-TYO first, rather than going double daily SFO-TYO?

I can see both. SEA-NRT will be a hole in oneworld's US-Asian network and they could reinstate MIA-SEA-NRT with a 763 if they chose to postpone the nonstop. SFO-NRT would also supplement JL's current service. AA still has the second largest frequent flyer base in the SF Bay Area. They clearly won't be taking UA/NH by storm, but they could easily get their fair share of traffic.


25 addd : It may not be - it is just that connecting between international flights in ANY U.S. airport is a hassle precisely because the concept of a transit z
26 Cubsrule : Does MIA not have ITI? I thought it did.
27 aaway : USCBP eliminated ITI in 2003.
28 Cubsrule : "Automatic" ITI no longer exists, but there is a carrier and gateway-specific interim program that (at least in one case) uses the same tags and proc
29 AirNZ : If I can ask, why does it need ATI to make it work? If the traffic is there as you state, why can't either airlines fly it? I reaalise the scope caus
30 DFWEagle : Without ATI and revenue sharing, it would not be in AA’s advantage to put any traffic onto the flight that could go on their own metal via DFW or J
31 commavia : Absolutely. With antitrust immunity, I could realistically see AA/JL starting: NRT-MIA - daily 777 or 787 NRT-SEA - daily 777 NRT-SJC - daily 763 NRT
32 biggsfo : You think they'd chose SJC over SFO?
33 commavia : They will already have SFO through the JAL JV - JAL has a daily 773. I do personally think San Jose/Silicon Valley/South Bay could support a Tokyo fl
34 Centrair : I think you mean NGO-LAX right? This one was confirmed by the previous JAL CEO. When they placed the 787 order, one intention was to rebuild their LA
35 aaway : One issue I see is that PDX has a stronger cargo market than SJC. Even absent that, the real issue I see would be the propensity of Bay Area pax (par
36 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I'll be the first to buy a ticket.. .......back in 2006, it was calculated (here on A.net) that AA needed approximately 30-40 more pax/flight to make
37 Post contains images AirNZ : Many thanks for that DFWEagle. It's always been one of those aspects which I've never fully been able to get my head quite around, and one which has
38 Post contains images DFWEagle : No problem Yes, its fair to say that ATI alone is basically legalized collusion on prices and usually bad for the customer. However, having ATI allow
39 Post contains images aaway : Due to my imprecision, I think your reply is out context relative to my question. And, for the record, I'm not trying to start an argument. It's more
40 biggsfo : I agree. AA seems to have made a business decision to focus on SFO as the center of it's Northern California strategy, however limited that strategy
41 m11stephen : What about MIA-PDX-NRT on a 763? I think it would have the range...
42 commavia : The range, but not the market. MIA-PDX would never be able to work for AA, and never with a 763. And AA couldn't make PDX-NRT work - DL is already th
43 jfk777 : This is one that is going to have to wait for a 787, that could be a JAL 787 so the wait may not be too long.
44 Post contains images Jacobin777 : That would be the "local" market to a certain extent. For a long time, the local-SJC market was certainly certainly strong on its own. When I lived i
45 biggsfo : Agreed. The only time AA would enter PDX-NRT is if DL abandoned the market and there was some subsidies. But it seems the route meets DL's expectatio
46 commavia : Personally, I don't think PDX could support service to Asia other than NRT. NRT remains by far the single largest market in Asia from the U.S., and s
47 Post contains images m11stephen : Thats the reason I'm an armchair executive instead of a real executive. What about? MIA-SJC-NRT MIA-ANC-NRT I don't see a non-stop MIA-NRT flight wor
48 commavia : Nope - on both counts. Neither local market out of MIA (independent of the NRT tag) is sufficient to support a nonstop flight - especially ANC. Why?
49 cslusarc : Although, Asia-LAX-South America was a traditional routing. It is not really competitive with a routing like NRT-JFK-GRU, Going via JFK saves time, f
50 commavia : It's a difference of barely more than 100 miles. That's hardly a big difference. In the scheme of multi-thousand-mile flights, we're talking about a
51 Centrair : sounds great. But would AA pilots fly it? They caused problems for DFW-PVG(?) application which is 100nm shorter than MIA-NRT?
52 commavia : Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps a good reason to instead have JAL operate it with 787s. True, but MIA-NRT is still 48 miles shorter than ORD-DEL, which the
53 biggsfo : Add to this the proposed.speculated Brazilian carrier being wooed by oneworld would definitely add feed at GRU.
54 web500sjc : unlike with the 777, i thought the japanesse aviation authorities werent allowing the 787 to do ETOPS until the aircraft has proven itself on either
55 AirNovaBAe146 : Based on these responses and several other comments in this thread - how come the USA does not have transit zones for connecting pax where you can ar
56 Cubsrule : Historically, there was no need. The US didn't really have any "competitors" for the flows it served, and TWOV wasn't much more burdensome than trans
57 m11stephen : How does this work? After getting off the plane do you go directly out into the departure area? I always assumed that everyone, regardless of final d
58 AirNovaBAe146 : At numerous global hubs - its basically a variation of the following: 1. Intl flight lands 2. Pax have 2 basic options - clear customs, claim bags an
59 mah4546 : I find it extremely likely that AA/JL will being LAX-NGO/KIX as part of their JBA. As such, an LAX-GRU route, whether operated by AA or JAL, could be
60 addd : ... and this is how EVERY major or even midsize international airport in Europe (where intra-Schengen connections also act as domestic ones), Asia, M
61 commavia : Agreed. I could see something along the lines of: JLXXX NRT1955-1355LAX1520-0710+1GRU 77W 146 JLXXX GRU0030-0920LAX1055-1425+1NRT 77W 136 That would
62 BOStonsox : While I've never thought twice about it, certainly MIA could support NRT service already. If ATL can support Asia service, then MIA shouldn't have a p
63 AAEXP : Just as an FYI: Brazilian (business and tourist) visas to the US will now be back to 10 years (from 5). That will definitely help. The hassle of gett
64 mah4546 : The markets are similarly-sized, especially when one brings into fact the advantage that ATL has by a decade history of non-stop service and the leak
65 Cubsrule : Maybe they are the exception, but saying it like this misses the fact, I think, that for most of its history, the US system made sense. The US has a
66 BMI727 : A 77E can do it, but that is long enough that there would be benefit to using a 77L instead, if it is practical.
67 RJ111 : There would be some benefit but at what cost? Those -200LRs aren't cheap (unless you're DL) and you often don't need all that payload anyway. I've a
68 Viscount724 : At least to the many Asian destinations that are closer via Europe, why would people want to take a longer route via the U.S. with all the additional
69 RJ111 : There's a sentence you don't hear every day.
70 BMI727 : That is where my practical caveat comes in. Would it make sense for AA to buy a couple 77Ls for this route? No, it wouldn't. But if they have other r
71 Viscount724 : That's why I put it last. I was originally going to leave it out, and a BA to BA connection at LHR isn't too bad now since T5 opened, but I would sti
72 Coronado : It is a lot more pleasant to connect in DXB on your way from GRU to PEK OR HKG or ICN or OSA, and soon Tokyo, than connecting ina US airport and risk
73 Jacobin777 : Far from happening, but AA does have a number of routes where a B77L would perfectly work! Some examples: MIA-NRT, ORD-DEL (with more uplift than it
74 biggsfo : Agreed. But this is AA we are talking about. I don't see the current management culture investing into a subfleet of 77Ls with 787s on the way.
75 Cubsrule : ...which, given the commonality with the 77E, might be a large enough subfleet to make economic sense. They'd have to have different engines (77L is
76 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Exactly.... We are talking about AA now... .... Also, AA's B787's will be powered with GE's as well.....regardless, its AA and I don't see them purch
77 aaway : Agree with this post. I'd add that geography plays a key as well. The multiplicity of borders on, for example, the European continent vs. North Ameri
78 Cubsrule : I certainly share your sentiments about AA in general, but this is a regard in which they might surprise us. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of
79 RJ111 : Yes, 5800nm is the max payload range for the 200ER and you won't get that on this route, but that only matters on A.net and not so much in the real w
80 ualcsr : ORL (MCO) might be a tourist seasonal destination but MIA is not. Miami is a major financial center for Latin Americans and is a big business city in
81 sflaflight : If AI had been better organized and had decided on MXP as a scissor hub about a year earlier, I could have seen a BOM-MXP-MIA route to capture both m
82 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : DL have been getting some great prices on their B77L, no reason why AA couldn't either. .. Of interest (but unrelated to MIA-NRT) "David Weigand, vic
83 Cubsrule : No. OTOH, though, they will likely be at least somewhat more expensive than comparable 77Es - but without a lot of airlines ordering both close toget
84 commavia : Again - I personally contend that the market is there if AA wants it. But, alas, as you allude to - AA has to actually want to get off their proverbi
85 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I know fellow A.netter Stitch knows the numbers better than I do, but I do know AA would get some amazing deals on their B77L's.....that much I think
86 Cubsrule : Absolutely - to me, the problem is that they can probably get amazing deals on 77Es too.
87 RJ111 : Guys, please stop this mental self gratification. Do you really think an airline as heavily involved in the RR Trent as AA are would be foolish enoug
88 Cubsrule : For an airline that will be dealing with the GEnx and the CF6, how much of a stretch is it to deal with the GE90?
89 Post contains images Jacobin777 : AA has an MOU for 42 B789's with rights to 52 more...that's 84 GEnX engines with a potential for another 104 engines (AA is not going with RR for the
90 RJ111 : None of that means anything though. They have no GE90s in the fleet and to add it would incur very tangible costs for almost non-existent gains and r
91 BMI727 : That goes back to my caveat of practicality. There are routes where an airline needs the 77L, routes where the 77L will perform better than a 77E, an
92 LipeGIG : The ATI wont allow JL/AA to offer code-share to Brazil because this is not allowed by the bilateral between Brazil and United States Yes, but if you b
93 addd : This may be true - international transit traffc was (and is) such a tiny portion of overall U.S. traffic that it naturally was an afterthought. This
94 Cubsrule : ...but at least at ATL/IAH, there's no need for international transit pax to recheck bags at present (because they can be checked through).
95 Jacobin777 : Probably not, but the possibility exists. AA also has a large MRO facility as well which handles quite a number of different engines. Many carriers w
96 addd : Are you sure? Are you talking about int'l/int'l connection (as in a passenger flying MEX-CDG via IAH)?
97 sflaflight : Huh? I've never heard of that. I thought that at all US airports one had to claim their bags and recheck. That is really interesting if that were the
98 Cubsrule : Yes - see below I've never done it. Here's what I know: I've seen a lot of bags with orange ITI tags getting checked on DL flights overseas. I have n
99 Post contains links aaway : Yes, you're definitely describing what is now known as the Progressive Clearance Program. Generally, there aren't procedural differences for the grou
100 addd : So, again - is the following true for a passenger flying MEX-ATL-CDG route on a single ticket (say, on Delta): 1) I check in at MEX all the way to CD
101 Post contains images A388 : Agreed Also more Asian airlines are looking at South America to fly to themselves. Just look at Brazil (and Argentina to a lesser extend). Transittin
102 RJ111 : No, if you read the post correctly you'll notice i said almost non-existent. Which is a more accurate reflection.
103 Cubsrule : But how do you quantify it? Yes Glad we are finally on the same page - and I'm still surprised that AA/MIA lacks PCP.
104 BMI727 : Certainly not non-existent, but I would be shocked if the gain was enough to warrant addition of the new type.
105 Cubsrule : How much are the costs of adding the 77L? It's a lot less than adding, say, the 330.
106 BMI727 : I don't have numbers, plus the planes themselves aren't cheap either. For a route that is only about 650 NM over the threshold of gain for a 77L it p
107 Post contains images Jacobin777 : DL added the B772L as a subtype...they found routes where they can deploy the plane for us with range and/or extra cargo...... Using numbers we get f
108 RJ111 : I'm getting a bit bored of this now. It should be obvious to anyone with an ounce of common sense that bringing an entirely new engine type to a flee
109 Cubsrule : They aren't. But again, Delta - facing a pretty similar picture to AA - found them worthwhile.
110 Post contains images aaway : Well, I don't think we were on a different page moreso different versions of the same textbook. You know - revised, updated But, I will add that some
111 RJ111 : Not really beacuse A) DL were in C11 and could not order new aircraft, thus the LR conversion was a loophole to get essentially "more" Aircraft B) Bo
112 Cubsrule : Huh? There's a subfleet either way. So Delta would not have ordered the LR but for Chapter 11? Source?
113 Jacobin777 : ..and the B77L was much more expensive then... ...proof? ...proof? ....irrelevant....
114 RJ111 : There's a couple of particularly weak arguments there. First of all you seem to imply that list price was somehow important in the past but irrelevent
115 Cubsrule : No. The two increased costs of the 77L vis the 77E are the increased list price and the cost associated with the engine differences. The increased re
116 BMI727 : They were launching their Dubai route, along with ATL-BOM, and had their service to Australia in the works too, so the cost was spread out more. Ther
117 Post contains images Jacobin777 : No..the bottom line is you've made a comments with no proof to back your claims-in fact, I think your claims are incorrect... ...where did I say that
118 BMI727 : Exactly what proof is there to back up your claims? You have disagreeing speculation, and can either discuss it rationally, or challenge each other t
119 Cubsrule : How was the cost spread out more? Obviously, AA isn't going to announce a route that needs the 77L with no plans to acquire 77Ls. Why is it that when
120 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I would like proof of these comments.... I've made comments that prices for B77L's are lower than before ("C-market planes" such as the A345 have bee
121 Post contains links RJ111 : Ordering 777-LRs Versus 777-ER (by AT Dec 23 2007 in Civil Aviation) Delta 777-200LR Order (by 1337Delta764 Sep 21 2006 in Civil Aviation) Delta Becom
122 Cubsrule : ...and still no facts to back this up: ...or this
123 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Nothing in that thread about what they paid or the "deal" they go...just that they changed their order from the -200ER to the -200LR... ...nothing in
124 RJ111 : Then i suggest you go an reread the threads then. There's at least 3 references to the deal they got and several post about their position in ordering
125 mah4546 : Me too. Converting the remaining 7 into 77Ls, which gives six planes and one spare to open Dallas to Sydney, Chicago to Mumbai and Miami to Johannesb
126 Cubsrule : Correct - all speculative. Not a shred of fact in any of them.
127 Post contains images RJ111 : Particularly when you are going to employ such ludicrous double standards.
128 Cubsrule : No double standard at all - Jacobin and I believe that AA could get a similar deal to DL. You evidently do not (but have no factual basis to explain
129 Post contains images RJ111 : It quite clearly states "DL have been getting some great prices on their B77L". Please stop being so difficult.
130 Cubsrule : Right - and all I'm saying is that AA could too.
131 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...I think RJ111 is making a mountain out of a molehill...
132 B752OS : What is the actual O&D between MIA-NRT?
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