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KLM Replaces 763, But Not M11?  
User currently offlineQantas777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 484 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 13556 times:

I know KLM replaced the 763 with the 330 and I thought the M11 would go away, being replaced by the 777. But it's still here, flying around. Any thoughts as to why? Are the M11's still on a lease, or owned outright? Are they great on cargo for the airline? Thx!

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesydaircargo From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 13529 times:

they might be good for cargo and will eventually be converted to CAO and handed over to MP , could it be?

User currently onlineMEA-707 From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4265 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 13400 times:

KLM plans to hold on to the MD-11 for passenger services til around 2015. By that time they have flown 20-25 years and might go straight to the scrapper as more efficient cargo planes are on the market.
The 777s more replaced the 747-300s and were for expansion.
The 767s were not particularly liked as their cargo holds were small, the A-330 is doing a better job carrying more cargo on the same sort of routes. It was seen as an interim aircraft anyhow so most of them were leased so they could get rid of them easily after less then 10 years.
KLM and Air France have yet to decide for a new twin to replace both the MD-11s and A-330s; the 787 or A-350.



nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
User currently offlinekeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 13386 times:

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 2):
KLM and Air France have yet to decide for a new twin to replace both the MD-11s and A-330s; the 787 or A-350.

I think the MD11 and A340 are up for replacement and AF/KLM said they expect to operate both 787 and A350 eventually.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4367 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 13319 times:

Quoting Qantas777 (Thread starter):
I know KLM replaced the 763 with the 330 and I thought the M11 would go away, being replaced by the 777. But it's still here, flying around. Any thoughts as to why? Are the M11's still on a lease, or owned outright? Are they great on cargo for the airline? Thx!

The MD11ss are still on lease. The main reason why KLM decided to end the the 767 lease was that there was a better aircraft available at the time. KLM never intended to to keep the 767 for a long period. In fact, they had stipulated in the 767 lease contract that they were allowed to either extend the lease, substitute for another type or buy the aircraft. Furthermore, the duration of the leases were relatively short. Finally, do not forget why the 767 entered the fleetr in the first place. At the time KL needed an aircraft the size of their A310-200, but with much longer range (without weight restrictions). The A330 was not readily available, whereas the 767-300 was. Therefore they leased the 767-300.

The MD11 was a choice driven by the need to have an aircraft between the A310 and the 747. As KL already operated the DC10, and was a loyal Douglas customer, the MD11 was a logical choice.

[Edited 2010-02-25 03:54:59]

User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5111 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 13243 times:

It's definitely a mystery. Every other scheduled MD-11 pax operator in the world has replaced their aircraft, usually with either 777 or A330 depending on the range needed; it's clear that the MD-11 is economically not competitive. I would really love to know what makes KLM different, especially since they already operate both 777 and A330.


Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlineFrigatebird From Netherlands, joined Jun 2008, 1462 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 13155 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 5):
It's definitely a mystery. Every other scheduled MD-11 pax operator in the world has replaced their aircraft, usually with either 777 or A330 depending on the range needed; it's clear that the MD-11 is economically not competitive. I would really love to know what makes KLM different, especially since they already operate both 777 and A330.

2 reasons:
1. they got some of the last produced pax-MD11's, and with the PIP included they did what KL required. Other airlines operated earlier models which didn't meet requirements, or only after implementation of the PIP. By then, most of them were disappointed with MD and Boeing succesfully pitched the 777 to them.
2. They rumouredly have very favorable leasing rates. Just as AA's MD80's are very economical at the beginning of the month, since they're paid for and their 738's are starting the month with a large leasing rate - only at the end of month the 738 makes it up with its efficiency. KL contemplated replacing the MD11's with more 777's but decided that keeping the MD11's saved them money. Simple as that.

Quoting sydaircargo (Reply 1):
they might be good for cargo and will eventually be converted to CAO and handed over to MP , could it be?

Not very likely. KL's MD11's are GE powered, MP's have Pratts.

The main difficulty that KL has with the MD11's is that technical knowledge is disappearing. And since there are so few operators left, not even the smallest efficiency enhancement is developed. Spares aren't the problem, there's still plenty of it around.



146,318/19/20/21,AB6,332,343,345,388,722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9,742,74E,744,752,762,763,772,77E,773,77W,AT3,ATP,E90,F50/70,M11,
User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2021 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 12856 times:

KL 767 aircraft were on an operational lease (ILFC) and could be disposed off with no extra costs, when the (relative short) term was expired.

KL MD 11 are (partly) on long term attractive financial leases, with high penalties when ending the lease before the end date.

Also are the GE CF6-80C2D1F engines, installed on the KL MD11 aircraft on an very favourable "power by the hour" contract, all maintenance engine costs are dealed with in this contract and the actual overhauls are provide by the KL (General Electric) engine shop at AMS.

As already stated in this thread, it's still cheaper to operate KL MD11 's a few years longer and than change to the most modern aircraft available at that time. Several internal business cases were made about this subject, with always the same result.

One of the remarkble things about the MD11 (and all Douglas aircraft) are the very low aging aircraft costs, in comparison with the other manufacturers. (The famous 1000 lbs over-weight on Douglas aircraft is re-paying itself now).

To satify the passengers comfort, the cabin and the in flight entertainment systems received an update to stay competetive for the next few years.

Till the next Heavy Maintenance Visit comes up you can see the passenger MD11 aircraft still flying for KL.

[Edited 2010-02-25 05:46:26]


Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1097 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 12760 times:

Quoting Frigatebird (Reply 6):
Spares aren't the problem, there's still plenty of it around.

Not entirely true. Due to the fact of only 119 (?) remaining aircraft, a whole lot of spares, especially electronics, are not massproduced any more, but on request in batches, which makes them comparably expensive to other models.


User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2659 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 12692 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 5):
it's clear that the MD-11 is economically not competitive.

Is it clear? Why would an airline -choose- to fly such a non-competitive bird in this economy? Perhaps the "economics" criticism of the MD-11 is exaggerated somewhat?


User currently offlineebj1248650 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1932 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 12589 times:

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 9):
Is it clear? Why would an airline -choose- to fly such a non-competitive bird in this economy? Perhaps the "economics" criticism of the MD-11 is exaggerated somewhat?

Good point. Surely KLM wouldn't keep the MD-11 if it was having that much problem competing with other airlines. And then you have the cargo lines also using the freight model. There must be money to be made with it or it'd be gone by now.



Dare to dream; dream big!
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12436 times:

Quoting keesje (Reply 3):
I think the MD11 and A340 are up for replacement and AF/KLM said they expect to operate both 787 and A350 eventually.

As the 744 combi. The 744 pax will be replaced by more 77W IIRC.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 5):
it's clear that the MD-11 is economically not competitive

It's clear that KL disagrees. KL has found a niche the MD11 works for them. They now mostly operate on Y heavy routes (Caribbean and South America) and reconfigured the cabin with less WBC seats and more Y seats. Remember that for example AY (that recently retired it's last MD11) had the very first MD11 off the line. KL has the newer versions, as mentioned, that use less fuel than the intial deliveries.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5111 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 12436 times:

Quoting MD80fanatic (Reply 9):
Is it clear? Why would an airline -choose- to fly such a non-competitive bird in this economy? Perhaps the "economics" criticism of the MD-11 is exaggerated somewhat?

My point was that KLM is the *only* airline choosing to do so. By my count 28 operators have ever operated the MD-11 in passenger form (not counting those wet-leasing the aircraft). 27 of those have decided the bird no longer suits their needs, and the reason is presumably economic. AF/KLM are surely not continuing to operate them for sentimental reasons, so I wanted to know what makes KLM different. Very low airframe and engine lease rates, combined with having some of the better frames made (as suggested by Frigatebird and 747classic), make for a compelling explanation.



Most gorgeous aircraft: Tu-204-300, 757-200, A330-200, 777-200LR, 787-8
User currently offlineEtarsa From Netherlands, joined Feb 2010, 13 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12334 times:

In terms of leasing points, the 777-200 are 3 times highter in costs then the MD-11. It is simply the lowest costing widebody airplane in the fleet of KLM.

And yes indeed, the best replacement in the future will be the 787 ro A350.
Just let us enjoy this great MD-11 while it is still there, it is the cream on the cake, the queen in the sky.



L1011,B707/E3A,DC10,KDC10,DC9,YS11,F27,70,100,B737,747-2/3/400,757,767,777-200/300,A319/320/330/380,MD11,CRJ,DHC8
User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12279 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 12):
Very low airframe and engine lease rates, combined with having some of the better frames made (as suggested by Frigatebird and 747classic), make for a compelling explanation.

This basically sums it up. Coupled with the current Y heavy config, the MD11 serves their mission very well.

Quoting Etarsa (Reply 13):
Just let us enjoy this great MD-11 while it is still there, it is the cream on the cake, the queen in the sky.

Indeed!! I'm very happy to fly this gorgeous bird for the first time this Sunday, to PBM.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5078 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12202 times:

Soon, KLM would be the only airline using the MD-11 in passenger configuration when FinnAir retires their MD-11s.


Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2021 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12184 times:

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 8):
Due to the fact of only 119 (?) remaining aircraft,

According www.airlinerslist.com we have 181 remaining active MD11 aircraft, 12 stored, 7 W/O.

HZ-ANB (cn 48775/616) is probably also a W/O (hard landing in KRT/HSSS.) , so actually remaining 192 MD11 aircraft out of 200 produced.

Spares are not seen as critical (yet), all (major) MD11 operators have formed a pool team for spare parts and at regulary intervals meetings take place to avoid possible bottlenecks in spares aquisition, also MD11 maintenance problems are discussed at the same meetings. (FX,5X.LH,KL etc.)

[Edited 2010-02-25 08:30:45]


Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offline777KLM From China, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 516 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12139 times:

Quoting JAL (Reply 15):
Soon, KLM would be the only airline using the MD-11 in passenger configuration when FinnAir retires their MD-11s.

Finnair phased out their last MD-11 in passenger configuration, which leaves KLM and World Airways the only MD-11 PAX carriers. Please correct me if I'm wrong.



Next flight: PEK-CAN
User currently offlineMD80fanatic From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2659 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 11975 times:

I'm sure some of the previous MD-11 operators were attracted by the high demand demonstrated by big time cargo lines for the aircraft, and away they went. Probably too was the image in the CEOs head of one of -his- 11s full of pax ending up a flaming heap as in Tokyo recently. I mean, you can't cheap out the pilot workforce (as airlines do today) -and- operate challenging aircraft to fly at the same time, a recipe for disaster.

Still, thank the Lord above for KLM and it's dedication to "the ride", instead of just "the bottom line".   


User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1097 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 11877 times:

Quoting 747classic (Reply 16):

Thanks, I thought its less.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 16):
Spares are not seen as critical (yet)

That would be true if you think very shortterm. My customer airline is very well thinking about the problem of austerity of certain spare parts, especially electronics, and they do so now.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 16):
all (major) MD11 operators have formed a pool team for spare parts and at regulary intervals meetings take place to avoid possible bottlenecks in spares aquisition, also MD11 maintenance problems are discussed at the same meetings.

Jep I know.


User currently offlineAverageUser From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 11825 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 11):
KL has the newer versions, as mentioned, that use less fuel than the intial deliveries.

Even the first example flown commercially (ex OH-LGA) has had all the Performance Improvement Program options retrofitted and MTOW upgraded. It would have been madness not to install the PIPs as soon as they became available since 1995.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24109 posts, RR: 23
Reply 21, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 11731 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 11):
They now mostly operate on Y heavy routes (Caribbean and South America) and reconfigured the cabin with less WBC seats and more Y seats.

And half of their Canadian destinations (YUL and YVR) which have little premium class demand.


User currently offline747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2021 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 11622 times:

Quoting NicoEDDF (Reply 19):

That would be true if you think very shortterm. My customer airline is very well thinking about the problem of austerity of certain spare parts, especially electronics, and they do so now

I agree, in a few years time,especially the 1990 era electronics will cause problems. That's why KL will dispose of the MD11 aircraft in a few (4-5) years time, when the next D-checks come up.

IMO, the next, far more demanding, problem that can influence the whole MD11 operation in a few years, will be the gradual transfer of more MD11 freighters to second rated cargo airlines, that are performing crew training at the legal minimum.

Seen the demanding handling of the MD11 freighters (increased MLW) near the edges of the flight envelope, this could be a recipe for disaster. Last years MD11 performance was hopefully not a mirror for the years to come with two fatal accidents (FedEX, Avient), one W/O (Saudi) and two hard landing incidents, with severe damage (Lufthansa, Centurion)
I am looking forward to the results of the findings of all accidents and incidents of last year.



Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1097 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 1 month 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 10830 times:

Quoting 747classic (Reply 22):

I agree, in a few years time,especially the 1990 era electronics will cause problems. That's why KL will dispose of the MD11 aircraft in a few (4-5) years time, when the next D-checks come up.

  

Quoting 747classic (Reply 22):
IMO, the next, far more demanding, problem that can influence the whole MD11 operation in a few years, will be the gradual transfer of more MD11 freighters to second rated cargo airlines, that are performing crew training at the legal minimum.

Seen the demanding handling of the MD11 freighters (increased MLW) near the edges of the flight envelope, this could be a recipe for disaster. Last years MD11 performance was hopefully not a mirror for the years to come with two fatal accidents (FedEX, Avient), one W/O (Saudi) and two hard landing incidents, with severe damage (Lufthansa, Centurion)
I am looking forward to the results of the findings of all accidents and incidents of last year.

Despite I don't like to say it, but I certainly agree with you that could impose a problem for fleet and reputation even more it is already after 2009.


User currently offlineColAvionLover From Panama, joined Dec 2008, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7893 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

What?... How somebody want's that the MD-11 go totally of passenger service??..

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO



JDM's
25 KingFriday013 : I can't believe this hasn't been brought up yet after more than 20 posts. In any case, my sentiments exactly. Rgds, -J.[Edited 2010-02-26 02:05:46]
26 Kappel : Knowing KLM, you can bet your bottom dollar that the reason they keep the MD11 has absolutely nothing to do with "the ride" and everything with the f
27 Musang : Clarify this for me please someone - does this mean they're over-engineered and consequently built like tanks, so the structure holds up well? Thanks
28 Post contains images jayeshrulz : I think KL also loves airplanes like us.So they dont mind keeping it until a next few years until i plan to fly KL MD-11 . That's probably in a few mo
29 747classic : It was well known in aviation (maintenance) circles that the Douglas designs were a little bit heavier but lasted much longer, the extra weight put i
30 SEPilot : I certainly hope this is true for all airlines. The economics of any particular aircraft are going to vary widely from airline to airline, as there a
31 MD80fanatic : MD had beefed up aircraft that have been proven to last an extraordinary time. MD aircraft carry more passengers in their lifetimes, and thus generate
32 JAL : I am not sure their MD-11s will last till 2015!
33 Kappel : Why not? They were delivered between 1993 and 1998. So by 2015 the oldest will be 22 years old and the youngest 17 years old. Compare that with the a
34 Post contains images Viscount724 : One example of the DC-10's durability -- the 3rd DC-10-30 built and one of the first 2 delivered to KLM and Swissair (the launch customers) in a join
35 seabosdca : With the sorts of operators who typically pick up third-hand freighters, this worries me too, especially once the A330-300F program is in full swing
36 AverageUser : By my logic they'll have to be, if one of the first examples coming from the line (actually still flying in full passenger configuration with World)
37 Post contains images etarsa : The PIP's are not al fully applied on the MD-11's from KLM. You can see for example a difference on the flapfairings between the PH-KCA thru PH-KCI an
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