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EK Wants To Add Vancouver, Calgary And Up Toronto  
User currently offlineEK156 From United Arab Emirates, joined May 2005, 765 posts, RR: 3
Posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 18973 times:

Emirates is trying very hard to get approval for increased services to Canada! In a study conducted, the new additions would create atleast 2800 new Canadian jobs in addition to more that US $ 480 million in economic benefits!

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/58232...irates-eyes-canadian-routes-growth

EK156

287 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinewarren747sp From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1171 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 18928 times:

I think that EK is desperate now. Trying every route until there is one that is hopefully profitable and sustainable.!


747SP
User currently offlineIrishAyes From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2240 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 18690 times:

There are restrictions on the Toronto-UAE market. That is currently why EK only flies 3X weekly to DXB and alternates with EY which flies 3X weekly to AUH. I believe this is meant to protect AC (and theoretically, AC can start flights to the UAE whenever they want) but so far have chosen not to.

I can see YYC being a possibility because of the oil connection. However, I feel like YVR may be a stretch. How does EK do on its flights to SFO and LAX?



next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 5010 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 18648 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 2):
I can see YYC being a possibility because of the oil connection. However, I feel like YVR may be a stretch. How does EK do on its flights to SFO and LAX?

Which oil connection? What does Dubai have in common with Tar Sands?


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16365 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 18551 times:

Quoting EK156 (Thread starter):
the new additions would create atleast 2800 new Canadian jobs in addition to more that US $ 480 million in economic benefits!

Balanced by reduced economic opportunities as other carriers reduce flights from YYZ to Europe and Asia due to EK's planned dumping of capacity into Canada: net benefit of EK is zero. IMO. The fact is that there is little actual demand for Canada-Dubai as an end-to-end market, Most EK pax to Dubai transfer to India and other destinations. Hence, Canada is well within its rights to refuse EK increased capacity in a market (Canada-Dubai) for which there is little actual demand.

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 2):
There are restrictions on the Toronto-UAE market. That is currently why EK only flies 3X weekly to DXB and alternates with EY which flies 3X weekly to AUH. I believe this is meant to protect AC

Correct on the restrictions. I'm hardly a fan of AC but I support AC's position (and Canada's) that traffic from YYZ-Dubai does not warrant more flight authority.

This morning's Globe and Mail (Canada's 2nd national newspaper) reports that Dubai may tie its permission for the CAF to stage military flights the Dubai as a condition of Canada granting more traffic rights to EK. This is ridiculous! In response, perhaps Canada should tie Dubai's attrocious human rights record as a reason to deny EK any traffic rights to Canada at all. Dubai's mistreatment of women, gays, visible minorities, not to mention a lack of democracy and rule of law, are offensive to most Canadians. A great way for Canada to demonstrate this would be to deny EK any route authority at all to Canada. For example. Canada does not need additional flights from a country such as this; economic benefits or not.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineMalayil From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 18445 times:

I agree that Canada should not sign an open skies agreement with the UAE but maybe a daily to Toronto and Calgary should be on the cards. EK does pretty well on its flights from SFO and LAX with most passengers connecting to India, Pakistan and Iran. The reported restrictions on the RCAF are definitely a bit ridiculous but at the same time we shouldn't make this a political discussion. As much as I respect Canada and what it stands for, it definitely has its blemishes i.e Omar Khadr, but let's not get into that. Without a doubt the UAE has a million more rights issues and problems compared to our Canadian friends. In any event though you might be surprised that there is a bit more O&D to Canada from Dubai than you think, mainly Indians and Pakistanis living out in the UAE who can't get citizenship and then come over to Canada for well...

User currently offlineevolv From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 89 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 18373 times:

I think that EK is desperate now. Trying every route until there is one that is hopefully profitable and sustainable.!

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
Which oil connection? What does Dubai have in common with Tar Sands?

Calgary trained oilpatch workers are the best in the world often travelling to the middle east to give companies such as Aramco and any oil major with operations there, advice. The UAE also made a small investment in the Canadian oil patch which in now known as a small company called TAQA, ok its a little bigger than small.

I know a lot of people who would use direct Calgary to Dubai service. That being said not sure of the politics behind the situation.


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 5010 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 18315 times:

Quoting evolv (Reply 6):
I know a lot of people who would use direct Calgary to Dubai service. That being said not sure of the politics behind the situation.

I'm sure there are. But there are more people flying from Calgary to Brussels, then there are Calgary to Dubai.


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2296 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 18272 times:

Everyone says AC is being protected. However, KLM, BA, LH, AF, Jet Airways, etc. all are not in favour of increased landing rights for EK. Not to mention AI and PK. All these carriers provide one stop access to the cities EK wants to serve from YYZ via UAE. Quite likely PK would be the first pushed out of YYZ if cheap tickets flood in.

I don't understand the concept that airline passengers will materialize out of the air who for some reason can't fly now. They will come off of existing flights. With 6x weekly service now from the UAE, what tourists are staying away? EK dumping capacity into Canada will simply result in existing carriers losing their connecting business. Where are the statistics for the lost jobs and service with those airlines.

I thought EK had a point in adding a service to one of the western provinces, perhaps 3x per week. The adding of the supposed lease for the prepositioning base into the negotiations I think will backfire. I believe the hard ball tactic will backfire badly with Canada public opinion.


User currently offlineSQ_EK_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1642 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 18243 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 4):
Balanced by reduced economic opportunities as other carriers reduce flights from YYZ to Europe and Asia due to EK's planned dumping of capacity into Canada: net benefit of EK is zero

  

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 4):
Most EK pax to Dubai transfer to India and other destinations
Quoting Malayil (Reply 5):
EK does pretty well on its flights from SFO and LAX with most passengers connecting to India, Pakistan and Iran.

It really dumbfounds me when I work the LAX flights and see such a large number of passengers transferring to India. It's so much shorter to go the other way around via the Pacific, and I don't think our fares are THAT much cheaper than those offered by KE/SQ/TG and the other Asian players at LAX.

Quoting evolv (Reply 6):
I think that EK is desperate now. Trying every route until there is one that is hopefully profitable and sustainable.!

I'm not quite so sure about that.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 7):
I'm sure there are. But there are more people flying from Calgary to Brussels, then there are Calgary to Dubai.

The traffic must be negligible between any Canadian airport and Dubai. A vast, vast majority of traffic from a majority of the destinations we serve are through passengers. Even those Dubai bound are connecting passengers opting to spend a few days in the city before continuing on to another destination.



Keep Discovering
User currently offlineBartond From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 791 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 18195 times:

Calgary trained oilpatch workers are the best in the world often travelling to the middle east to give companies such as Aramco and any oil major with operations there, advice. The UAE also made a small investment in the Canadian oil patch which in now known as a small company called TAQA, ok its a little bigger than small.

I know a lot of people who would use direct Calgary to Dubai service. That being said

Quoting Malayil (Reply 5):
I agree that Canada should not sign an open skies agreement with the UAE but maybe a daily to Toronto and Calgary should be on the cards.

Still, I can't believe that Calgary was plugging along with a flight or two to Europe and then all of a sudden four international carriers want to all jump in within a few years. BA, KL, LH, and now EK. Did the oil patch pop up out of nowhere and create hundreds of daily passengers needing to fly to the Middle East and/or south Asia?

I'm not saying that Calgary isn't a legit business city but it just seems really sudden for all of these major airlines to just now begin service, and all at basically the same time.


User currently offlineyellowtail From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 6345 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 18158 times:

Quoting SQ_EK_freak (Reply 9):
It really dumbfounds me when I work the LAX flights and see such a large number of passengers transferring to India. It's so much shorter to go the other way around via the Pacific, and I don't think our fares are THAT much cheaper than those offered by KE/SQ/TG and the other Asian players at LAX.

Perhaps some good old fashioned marketing?

Quoting Bartond (Reply 10):
I'm not saying that Calgary isn't a legit business city but it just seems really sudden for all of these major airlines to just now begin service, and all at basically the same time

But folks in Calgary do have money right now....and as previous poster have said...you have Gulf companies such as Aramco with offices there. My uncle works for Aramco and he is posted to Calgary.



When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25983 posts, RR: 22
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17819 times:

Quoting SQ_EK_freak (Reply 9):
It really dumbfounds me when I work the LAX flights and see such a large number of passengers transferring to India. It's so much shorter to go the other way around via the Pacific,

Why do you say it's so much shorter via the Pacific? LAX-BOM examples below. Only the routing via ICN is very slightly shorter than via DXB, and that 79 nm difference is meaningless on such a long route. And ICN doesn't even have daily service to BOM. The further south you connect in Asia the bigger the advantage via DXB. Via SIN is almost 1500 nm further than via DXB. Connections are also probably better at DXB than at most of the logical gateways in Asia.

LAX-DXB-BOM 8287 nm

LAX-ICN-BOM 8208 nm
LAX-NRT-BOM 8406 nm
LAX-HKG-BOM 8619 nm
LAX-BKK-BOM 8824 nm
LAX-SIN-BOM 9738 nm


User currently offlineaddd From United States of America, joined May 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17819 times:

Quoting SQ_EK_freak (Reply 9):
It really dumbfounds me when I work the LAX flights and see such a large number of passengers transferring to India. It's so much shorter to go the other way around via the Pacific,

Not really - LAX-HKG-BOM, for example is 8619 nm vs. 8287 nm for LAX-DXB-BOM route. No matter how you look at them, it is about the same distance.

All that said, my impression is that the entire North American strategy for Gulf-based carriers is about serving NA-India route. Essentially, any NA destination may work for EK only if it has meaningful customer base in the following segments:

1) U.S./Canadian companies doing sighnificant business in India
2) Indian companies doing significant business in the U.S.
3) Large Indo-Pakistani ethnic community
4) India-bound/ex-India cargo

That what is going to make or break YVR and YYC - I do not know these markets well enough (except that there is a huge Sikh community in Vancouver) to speculate whether they fit the bill.

[Edited 2010-02-25 12:19:30]

User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 5478 posts, RR: 31
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 17749 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
Which oil connection? What does Dubai have in common with Tar Sands?
Quoting Bartond (Reply 10):
Still, I can't believe that Calgary was plugging along with a flight or two to Europe and then all of a sudden four international carriers want to all jump in within a few years. BA, KL, LH, and now EK. Did the oil patch pop up out of nowhere and create hundreds of daily passengers needing to fly to the Middle East and/or south Asia?

I spent 6 years working the oil patch in the middle east...along with thousands of other Canadians. Most of those work on a 4weeks on/4 weeks off schedule and stage out of Calgary and use Dubai as a hub. The planes out of YYC and transiting LHR or FRA are almost always packed to Dubai.

It gets a bit old if you are doing that flight once a month. Most people I know would welcome EK to YYC. The connections in Europe can be brutal.



What the...?
User currently offlineCX288 From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17631 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 2):
I can see YYC being a possibility because of the oil connection. However, I feel like YVR may be a stretch.

There is a sizeable Indian community in Vancouver, and I remember an AC presentation from many years ago where they said a YVR-DEL non-stop would be a future route for them. So EK will be, among others, aiming for YVR-India connections.


User currently offlinewhiteguy From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 836 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17598 times:

Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 2):
There are restrictions on the Toronto-UAE market. That is currently why EK only flies 3X weekly to DXB and alternates with EY which flies 3X weekly to AUH. I believe this is meant to protect AC (and theoretically, AC can start flights to the UAE whenever they want) but so far have chosen not to.

These restrictions are between Canada and UAE not Toronto-UAE. 6 flights a day are allowed and were offered to EK, who decided 3 daily were enough. That is why EY got the other 3 daily.

I find it ironic that everyone in Canada complains about AC and the their supposed "government bailouts" yet they want government funded airline like EK to be able to operate in and out of Canada with no restrictions.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25983 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 17580 times:

Quoting CX288 (Reply 15):
Quoting IrishAyes (Reply 2):
I can see YYC being a possibility because of the oil connection. However, I feel like YVR may be a stretch.

There is a sizeable Indian community in Vancouver, and I remember an AC presentation from many years ago where they said a YVR-DEL non-stop would be a future route for them. So EK will be, among others, aiming for YVR-India connections.

In March 2001 AC announced new nonstop YVR-DEL seasonal service (October-April) to begin October 19, 2001, using the A340-300. The plans were dropped in the wake of the events of September 11, 2001. Related AC press release.
http://www.aircanada.cn/news/jpen-20010312.pdf


User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 5010 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 17445 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 14):
I spent 6 years working the oil patch in the middle east...along with thousands of other Canadians. Most of those work on a 4weeks on/4 weeks off schedule and stage out of Calgary and use Dubai as a hub. The planes out of YYC and transiting LHR or FRA are almost always packed to Dubai.

It gets a bit old if you are doing that flight once a month. Most people I know would welcome EK to YYC. The connections in Europe can be brutal.

Your anecdote does not follow the market statistics. If we were to sum up all of the people from or going to Calgary from Dubai per day, then decided to multiply by 2, we would quickly find that even if all 100% of these passengers flew with the Emirates service - that we could barely fill a CRJ.


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4847 posts, RR: 44
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 17384 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 18):

Your anecdote does not follow the market statistics. If we were to sum up all of the people from or going to Calgary from Dubai per day, then decided to multiply by 2, we would quickly find that even if all 100% of these passengers flew with the Emirates service - that we could barely fill a CRJ.

Indeed...EK should instead focus on flying to other long haul/medium haul destinations that have a better chance of breaking even or having a lower loss margin versus YYC and YVR.

These destinations include ORD, GVA, IAD, DUB and BRU.

[Edited 2010-02-25 14:22:20]

User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11459 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 17384 times:
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Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
Which oil connection? What does Dubai have in common with Tar Sands?

Very common comment here on A.Net to believe DXB is an oil destination. There's some oil business there, but it's not an oil city.


Quoting EK156 (Thread starter):
Emirates is trying very hard to get approval for increased services to Canada! In a study conducted, the new additions would create atleast 2800 new Canadian jobs in addition to more that US $ 480 million in economic benefits!
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 4):
Balanced by reduced economic opportunities as other carriers reduce flights from YYZ to Europe and Asia due to EK's planned dumping of capacity into Canada

Agreed. Always people talk about benefits but fortget to measure the potential problems like the passengers AC will lose to Europe or Asia that now would fly with EK. Canada will be very smart not accepting such study



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinedavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7437 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 17367 times:
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Quoting whiteguy (Reply 16):
These restrictions are between Canada and UAE not Toronto-UAE. 6 flights a day are allowed and were offered to EK, who decided 3 daily were enough. That is why EY got the other 3 daily.

If it were like that, EK would be in there like a shot.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 16):
find it ironic that everyone in Canada complains about AC and the their supposed "government bailouts" yet they want government funded airline like EK to be able to operate in and out of Canada with no restrictions.

And your proof of "government funded airline like EK" is?


User currently offlinetravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 17350 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 4):
perhaps Canada should tie Dubai's attrocious human rights record as a reason to deny EK any traffic rights to Canada at all. Dubai's mistreatment of women, gays, visible minorities, not to mention a lack of democracy and rule of law, are offensive to most Canadians.

Given that logic there would be no service from Canada to China either.


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4847 posts, RR: 44
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 17297 times:

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 20):

Very common comment here on A.Net to believe DXB is an oil destination. There's some oil business there, but it's not an oil city.

There are 2 ways to look at it...DXB is not an oil city but a lot of oil companies worldwide have their Middle East head office or 'regional' head offices based in DXB hence a frequent movement of 'oil executives' to/from DXB to XYZ city.


User currently offlineaddd From United States of America, joined May 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 17253 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 4):
Canada should tie Dubai's attrocious human rights record as a reason to deny EK any traffic rights to Canada

Here we go - another self-righteous Anglo-Saxon argument for "good" economic protectionism (as opposed to the "bad" one practiced by Arabs, Chinese, Russkies and other godless Commies). Well done, Steve-o.


25 Post contains links Kaiarahi : Dubai has upped the ante by tying the (totally unrelated) forward staging base used by Canadian forces in Afghanistan to EK's service frequency: http
26 travelin man : Interesting. The verbiage under the headline of the Globe and Mail article says "State-run carrier Emirates has been trying to ramp up Toronto-Dubai s
27 Viscount724 : Yes, like virtually every other major airline in that region, for example Etihad, Qatar Airways, Kuwait Airways, Saudi Arabian, Iran Air etc.[Edited
28 Post contains images AirNovaBAe146 : This is a great response! EK is hitting the bottom of the barrel with this tactic. Heck, if they'd want, we in the West could pull out of the Middle
29 luckyone : It is a holding of the Emirates Group which is wholly owned by the Dubai government as part of the Investment Corporation of Dubai. Pulling straight
30 LipeGIG : I've been advised that some Dubai corporations are establishing offices in places like Rio because of oil and this is getting bigger and bigger so i
31 TCXDegsy : I would hardly call at least a 2 year gap "the same time"! The gap being that BA has been flying into Calgary for 2 years now, and IF EK get approval
32 JoeCanuck : I'm curious to see those statistics...could you post them?
33 Post contains images Asiaflyer : No reason to behave like kids in a sand box from any party. Just open up the market, and if EK is so wrong as most of you Canadians think and might b
34 Viscount724 : And YYC wasn't a new destination for BA. They served both YYC and YEG for a while around the early 1980s as intermediate stops to YVR. Both points we
35 Gemuser : Why should Canada open the market for EK, when that does not open the market for Canadian interests? Gemuser
36 blrsea : EK flies to large number of cities in India, while the other Asian carriers at most fly to just BOM and DEL. SQ/CX/MH flies to a bit more destination
37 steex : For what it's worth, EY entered YYZ before EK. The 6 weekly rights were available to any UAE carrier, but EK initially refused to start service to Ca
38 golfradio : I was resisting the temptation to post on yet another EK versus Canada thread but it's too hard. AC losing passengers to Europe or Asia is AC's probl
39 Asiaflyer : Give the travellers the choice to chose which carrier to fly with. Protectionism only holds the fare up and preserves poor service.
40 whiteguy : Actually BA started service to YYC in Dec of 2006. And KLM was serving YYC up till Oct of 1996!
41 OA412 : And as EK dumps capacity in a smaller Canadian city such as YYC and drives other carriers away, travellers are left with less choice, so how does tha
42 Post contains links airceo : [Self Plug] I took it upon myself to discredit the "study" commisioned by EK. http://airceo.com/2010/02/emirates-fights-for-canada-chapter-2/ YOWza
43 Gemuser : While great in theory, in fact, the worlds aviation market is NOT a free market. If it was I would agree with you, but seeing its not each country ha
44 pnwtraveler : Great job and analysis. You can fund a study and make the outcome a predetermined conclusion. You have pointed out just some of the wiggle words/phra
45 Post contains images Asiaflyer : How can you call a daily flight DXB-YYC for dumping capacity? If there is a demand for DXB-YYC flights, why should not a carrier from one of the two
46 EnviroTO : I think Canada should have reciprocal open skies with freedoms 1-4 and 6 for everyone. The consumer decides what is good for them with their wallet. E
47 OA412 : Per reply 42, DXB-YYZ has been achieving a load factor of roughly 65% which, of course, includes all the demand to DXB plus demand to cities beyond D
48 Gemuser : Sure, but why should Canada or any other country lead the way when others don't? What is needed is a renegotiation of the Chicago Convention to allow
49 Kaiarahi : Not too many, for obvious reasons. But DXB is a convenient hub for South Asia, India, Africa. These markets are currently served by AC's most importa
50 Post contains images whiteguy : But when Porter/Deluce kicked AC out of YTZ, thats ok?
51 pnwtraveler : No it wasn't. But Jazz neglected the airport and was cutting service. I believe AC would have been very happy had the vocal minority won out and clos
52 behramjee : All of EK's long haul flights primarily cater to 6th freedom markets via DXB. Thats their business model as is the case with EY/QR/GF/WY. Saudia Airli
53 MaverickM11 : Really?? Wow. YVR and YYC are *tiny* compared to YYZ in terms of demand to DXB--as in around a dozen PDEW versus 6-7 times that for YYZ. And neither
54 Post contains images gr8circle : Very true.....although both Calgary and the UAE have oil in common, and I have no doubt that Calgary oilmen are among the best in the world, that alo
55 travelin man : Quick, somebody better tell the US about the threat from allowing EK unrestricted access to our market! EK will take over America! Ridiculous.
56 sirloin : I understand the comments some of you are making about letting the free market dictate which airline triumphs. However, I ask how free it really is. L
57 JoeCanuck : While there really isn't enough petroleum in the UAE to sustain heavy traffic between YYC and DXB, Dubai is THE major hub for access to the middle ea
58 mah4546 : I can't believe so many people can't see through what Emirates is doing: it wants more access to Toronto, so it dangles false promises to fly to Calga
59 AirbusCanada : Why are you guys are screaming about protectionism, who the hell are you protecting? Air Canada? Or the Canadian public? I never seen so much passion
60 thenoflyzone : it's actually the other way around. EY started flights first (31 October, 2005), 3x weekly, and because of that EK was only left with 3 flights a wee
61 travelin man : Excellent post AirbusCanada. I especially agree with: People screaming over "government ownership" really need to be looking at a lot of these other
62 thenoflyzone : i totally agree. With the rising of air fares in Canada (body scanners anyone ?), we need solid competition, and EK is the perfect candidate. Canada
63 Post contains images golfradio : But if you haven't already noticed, people on here generally hate EK with a passion and will make all kinds of arguments about how EK is going to dri
64 9252fly : Seems to me this thread is turning into another EK-Canada pissing match. The bottom line issue no matter how convoluted this thread may become,it boil
65 thenoflyzone : Why, because LH through FRA or MUC doesn't do the same thing ! Come on ! What you are mentioning is not a reason why EK should not get more frequenci
66 MaverickM11 : What exactly does Canada want in exchange for open skies or more access to EK? Hasn't AC been fending for itself for a while? Far be it from me to op
67 AirbusCanada : [Edited 2010-02-26 12:19:04] IF AC’s upper management wasn’t busy with reducing network and lobbying in Ottawa to block EK’s entry, they would r
68 Post contains images Kaiarahi : What makes you think EK pax are going to be exempt from the same security checks as pax on other carriers?
69 Post contains images mdavies06 : If you look at Europe-Aus, one of the main business area of EK, nearly everyone has left that market. BA is going to 1x daily and VS has 1x daily. 15
70 travelin man : So should the US not have Open Skies with the UAE? I have seen insinuations that EK is somehow supported "more", but nobody has brought up a single d
71 MaverickM11 : What does that have to do with Canada? Of course, but you're never going to convince me that this integral part of Maktoum's recently bailed out Alic
72 Viscount724 : The UAE has nothing to offer Canada that would offset the damage to Canadian carriers from opening up Canada to increased access by UAE carriers. Tha
73 thenoflyzone : That's not why i put that in there. Yesterday, it was all over the news here in Canada, that ticket prices will rise because of fees associated with
74 Viscount724 : Whether you call it a subsidy or not, EK pays no income taxes on their profits, like all other companies in the UAE (except banks). That alone makes
75 Post contains images OA412 : People have mentioned airlines such as SQ and AF/KL which are partially government owned. However, what is missed is exactly what you've noted. The S
76 thenoflyzone : EK offers good service, good prices and therefore a good option for people wanting to go from YYZ to Asia. That's something to offer in my books. So
77 travelin man : I would assume you would be against the US having Open Skies with the UAE for the same reasons that you seem to be against Canada having Open Skies w
78 Viscount724 : Bilaterals are normally based on the needs of 3rd and 4th freedom traffic, which is very minimal between Canada and the UAE. Canada-Germany is a very
79 Sebring : It's allowed because the Canada-Germany bilateral, now superseded by the Canada-EU agreement, grants Canada liberal beyond rights that EK is not offe
80 Gemuser : Don't know about AF/French government, but SQ is VERY, VERY definitely an instrument of the state of Singapore. It is partly owned by Temeask (sp?) H
81 EnviroTO : First of all: is EK government subsidized? Second of all: EK cannot eliminate AC. Only a limited number of destinations on the other side of the worl
82 OA412 : Thanks for the clarification. I wasn't aware that SQ's state ownership worked that way. By the way, does anyone know what percentage of SQ the state
83 MaverickM11 : I never said I was against it, but that doesn't mean I can't see both sides of the argument
84 Post contains images gr8circle : You're right on that....but in that case, EY would be equally strong, because they have a good ME network too, they have the connections to India and
85 Jacobin777 : There is still a lot of competition on the Europe-Aus route...any carrier which flies to Europe and Australia theoretically can be considered a compe
86 Sebring : Some countries care about things like health care, unemployment benefits, and so. Dubai has an entirely different attitude towards migrant workers bu
87 pnwtraveler : Any comparison between EK flying to Canada vs. the US isn't a fair comparison. There is a substantially larger US population so a much larger pool of
88 JoeCanuck : Abu Dhabi still doesn't have the airport or the same number and variety of connections that DXB has...though they are growing. It's only an hour and
89 Post contains images gr8circle : Yeah, everyone out there is not going to have the same monstrous structures that Dubai builds .....but EY has a brand new terminal of their own at AU
90 JoeCanuck : As an airline, I much prefer EY to EK and as cities, I prefer Abu Dhabi to Dubai.
91 DavidYYC : Its the same old "we hate EK, UAE, and everything to do with oil, including YYC and west" crowd. Egged on for sure by the few usual AC fanboys and pro
92 Post contains images TheCol : That pretty well sums it up. The traditional liberals, including Quebec, still consider Air Canada a crown corporation. If something similar was to e
93 mdavies06 : My point is that the gulf carriers have replaced nearly all the European carriers on this route. They will increase capacity as long as Dubai Governm
94 EnviroTO : Their hub is half way between Europe and Australia which is a geographic advantage. London's position has given BA a similar advantage between Europe
95 Kaiarahi : Almost as bad a position as NZ, who are currently doing very well. EK is still flying A380s with unprofitable LFs into AKL.
96 david_itl : And they have told you that?
97 Commavia : Agreed. This is just comical. I guess by this logic, Brazil should stop letting Air Canada fly to Sao Paulo because they're more interested in transi
98 Kaiarahi : You don't have to be an EK insider to count pax boarding an aircraft. Of course I could be wrong - maybe they're operating across the Tasman with 3 e
99 Kaiarahi : Yeah, but nobody came even close to suggesting this except travelin man - guess he likes laughing at himself. Are they really?? Canada has on numerou
100 david_itl : Counting pax is not so hard. But if the low number of pax have all paid top dollar then it's not unprofitable!
101 Commavia : Well, as I thought I already made clear, I view cabotage differently than international Open Skies. As I said - if this was an issue of Emirates want
102 AirNZ : Could you please enlarge on that for me (though I don't know why it takes someone to copy/paste a post and use it again)? Are you seriously saying th
103 Kaiarahi : Check out the published fares.
104 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Canada could give EK unrestricted rights between Canada and the UAE, but still restrict onward connections. That would be irony
105 Jacobin777 : What does migrant workers have anything to do with the conversation? There are no migrant workers transiting via DXB. All the migrant workers you tal
106 OA412 : Because, IMHO, blind defenses of EK begin to crumble under the weight of such arguments.
107 david_itl : When is someone going to profer up demonstrable proof that this they are subsidised? The burden of proof should not up to those who believe that they
108 OA412 : Why not? Why should those who believe that they are not subsidized be held to a different standard than those who do? We should automatically believe
109 AirNZ : I absolutely agree with you. However, the only problem with this happening is that it doesn't exist and thus would end one the myths which keep so ma
110 Sebring : Clearly, your interested in having your position, twisting facts the way Except subsidized competition moves travallers from one airline to another, a
111 david_itl : Proof please of these subsidies. Put up or shut up.
112 Jacobin777 : You might quote rest of my comment: I know of 2 companies who have run into this problem. It was based on the comment of migrant workers working @ DX
113 Viscount724 : DXB is much less than half way between Europe and Australia. DXB isn't even 1/3 of the way (31%) between LHR and SYD.. Even to the closest Australian
114 9252fly : If that were to occur,then EK would likely end it services to Canada. Seems people are forgetting that Canada is a sovereign country that makes it's
115 RJ111 : You'd get the impression reading a lot of posts on this thread that the vast majority of the people flying from Canada to Europe are in fact all headi
116 huaiwei : I didn't know that opening up one's country to foreign visitors and companies is a challenge to a country's sovereignty. Perhaps Canada would like to
117 yyz717 : No one is being prevented from travelling to Canada due to EK's limit of 3 flights/week. The issue is whether EK should be allowed to dump excess cap
118 david_itl : If someone is in the act of accusing something, thery would be able to cite evidence. Please can we have some?
119 MaverickM11 : No kidding. Hence the irony. It *is* the government. What evidence do you need? It's like asking for evidence that Freddie Mac is subsidized by the U
120 huaiwei : I am obviously pretty familiar with the usual "arguments" put up by protectionists, so no need for another dose of that. So let's just get to the roo
121 RJ111 : I am absolutely baffled as to what the Human Rights situation of Dubai has to do with an airline service to/from the country. I would respectfully rec
122 rikkus67 : Whether or not long time Calgarians know it, Calgary is quickly becoming one of Canada's most culturally diverse cities. We do have a large East Indi
123 DTWLAX : It is not shorter in terms of your journey time. Most of the Pacific routes are 2-stops or if it is one-stop they have long connection/transit times.
124 Post contains images huaiwei : First, I fail to see how a "national airline" which does not even have exclusive right to fly its national servicemen bound for overseas military tra
125 Emirates773ER : Well I guess it is about time I made a contribution to this thread, add fuel to fire. I suggest anyone in this thread who hasn't been to Canada to com
126 MaverickM11 : Then what's the problem with other profit companies lobbying the government to keep another (less-than-opaque-state) company out? Why is what's good
127 Emirates773ER : Interesting question with a rather obvious answer. What Emirates does in their own backyard is their own business, considering it is owned by the guy
128 JoeCanuck : It's never now or never. As long as there is perceived to be money made, someone will try to exploit that. Tying the deal to Camp Mirage is a mistake
129 MaverickM11 : I don't understand why you're supportive of a megalomanical sheikh doing whatever he wants, but you're anti the elected-Canadian government doing wha
130 Emirates773ER : Camp Mirage is a pretty big staging operation base for the Canadian. I don't know if moving of to another country will be that easy.
131 Emirates773ER : Pretty simple once again, we have nothing to do with Sheikh Muhammed, he doesn't answer to us nor will he answer to us. The only people he answers to
132 MaverickM11 : No one is going to buy that for a second.; that sounds like something Kim Jong Il's PR department. What do landing fees have to do with allowing EK m
133 JoeCanuck : Doha is a 20 minute flight from Dubai. I worked 5 minutes from a huge US base there...surrounded by nothing but desert. They have lots of room to exp
134 Emirates773ER : You my friend have obviously never been to Dubai or met an Emirati. The locals of UAE have every need of their's met by their rulers. Thus the extrem
135 Post contains images TheCol : I think he is referring to our economic endeavors outside North America. How many airlines do you want to add to the list then? Enough said. Maybe yo
136 MaverickM11 : Remind me what the North Korean-style PR and Emiratis happiness has to do with anything?
137 pnwtraveler : Ahhh duh...EK wants into the Canadian market. They should be the one proving that the field is a level playing field, not Canadians who have the righ
138 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : Since this is a thread about EK, lets discuss EK...... Personally, I have no problems with EK...in fact, I fly EK countless times and have been doing
139 EnviroTO : I did. $16,000 round trip in first class to Dubai. You could pay for a lot of empty economy seats with that. Both airlines are not integral to how SQ
140 MaverickM11 : Every carrier benefits to some extent from government regulation/taxation, but for the most part US/Canadian carriers operate in spite of the governm
141 DavidYYC : I really dont get this ' EK is subsidised' so we are not letting them add further seats into Canada argument. As mentioned above by many others; AC (w
142 TheCol : Motive: To make money. Numbers: Leave that crap to the investors. That's just the tip of the iceberg. Dude, you have no idea. That's one union you de
143 9252fly : I will have to disagree about your statement that AC has been bailed out. Yes they did go through a bankruptcy process in 2003/2004,but they were not
144 Post contains images huaiwei : In a normal capitalist economy, a company defends it's turf by its own strategies, not by telling a government to keep others out. And yes, this appl
145 Post contains images Jacobin777 : In that context, you are probably correct..but you did state they had no narrow body planes in their fleet and I wanted to make sure we got that fact
146 Post contains images Kaiarahi : When EK allows anyone to see the books. That is soooo rich coming from you From another thread: Quoting AirNZ (Reply 162): I've been a pilot for over
147 NorthStarDC4M : Bailed out, yes.. after they were saddled with massive costs at government decree: Privatised with a massive debt, AND the government took the profit
148 Jacobin777 : Doesn't AC have rights to fly to the UAE? That's just flat out incorrect..
149 jamincan : I do not believe for an instant that EK cares about serving Calgary or Vancouver, except possibly in the far distant future. They want daily traffic r
150 Post contains images MaverickM11 : You're missing the point; why can the Dubai government protect their interests (ie expand EK) and Canada cannot? Exactly, and there was exponentially
151 NorthStarDC4M : EK avg price paid per L of fuel at DXB in 2008: 0.22USD (no taxes charged) AC avg price paid per L of fuel at YYZ in 2008: 1.10USD (including taxes)
152 directorguy : Wow, the Canada-EK thing never gets old... I wouldn't be so skeptical. EK (and increasingly QR) serve a lot of 'secondary' gateways and don't just foc
153 FLYYUL : You simply can't substantiate this. If EK's is not paying for fuel, aircraft ownership expenses, landing fees, we simply do not know how is paying wh
154 whiteguy : AC was NOT!!!! bailed out by the Government during their term in CCAA. AC has been bankruptcy protection once! And they were not bailed out by anyone
155 travelin man : It's pretty simple -- the Canadian government has chosen to subsidize/protect Air Canada by limiting competition from EK, and the result is higher cos
156 Post contains images Jacobin777 : The question is answered above.....there is no reason why AC can't fly to DXB-legally/in theory at least... Non-sequitur The average price of fuel DX
157 Sebring : Except that Air Canada plays the Canadian rate on all outbound international flights, and all domestic flights. The Csnadian government has chosen to
158 Jacobin777 : .....who's fault and problem is that? ...so what does have to do with competing with EK? ....why can't they be independent entities-i.e.why should av
159 FLYYUL : I still don't understand why you fail to see this is as a measure which protects the marketplace. Air Canada has less than 50% capacity share on Cana
160 Sebring : Except, as I note above, the Canadian government is not protecting AC, it's protecting its own self-interest, it's own cash flow. As an AC supporter,
161 9252fly : I'm not so sure that Canadian consumers are really paying too much to travel to destinations that are served in this case by EK. If one considers the
162 travelin man : So, maybe I am not understanding this as a whole, but why is LH flying to YYC more "valuable" than EK flying to YYC? If LH has a significant O&D
163 directorguy : From what I understood, if EK started DXB-YYC then this would indirectly affect LH...a great deal of people who fly Canada-FRA-India on LH might swit
164 FLYYUL : 1.) YYC-Germany is a large market about 5-6 times the size of YYC-UAE 2.) YYC-Europe is significantly larger than YYC-UAE + beyond 3.) A small but re
165 FLYYUL : There are two formulas to question; Large/Medium local demand + large beyond = sustainable service (BA/KL/AF/LH/9W) Small local + large beyond = serv
166 Sebring : This is the way it is, and the way it will remain for some time, and EK has not inherent right to more access. No, the US part of this is about transb
167 Viscount724 : It is AC specifically since the Canadian government designated AC in 1999. If hypothetically, another Canadian carrier wanted to start service to the
168 JoeCanuck : As long as AC isn't offering UAE direct, they really aren't competing with EK at all on that route. The connections through Europe are brutal.
169 huaiwei : Protecting AC equals protecting the government as far as public sentiment and winning their confidence and votes are concerned. I suppose this is cle
170 Kaiarahi : You obviously know nothing about what many Canadians think of AC. Perception that the government is protecting/favouring AC would probably be a net n
171 huaiwei : Contextual knowledge is irrelevant in this regard. As far as I am concerned, I support global liberal air travel regardless of whether a country's re
172 MaverickM11 : Nope, I said I prefer free trade to "fair trade", but I can also understand where the Canadian government is coming from--they actually have to answe
173 t154m : With my respect to the canadian govt i believe its very wrong to deny EK or EY or any airline in that matter to restricted frequency to canada. canada
174 Post contains images huaiwei : The first and second halves of your sentence contradicts each other. If you are going to support free trade, you will just simply have to ignore poli
175 brilondon : I for one would be in favour of a direct connection to middle east as it mean a shorter flight and I could avoid having to go through CDG. I would st
176 MaverickM11 : Not at all. I'm an ardent free trader but I'm sympathetic to the fact that the "losers" of free trade want to protect their cause. By the same token,
177 Sebring : This is rubbish. If you take "government restrictions" out of the way, travellers do not benefit equally. I realize you are in Singapore, where all f
178 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Actually, the United Arab Emirates as whole has a lot of money, in fact, Abu Dhabi, if it really wanted to in theory, can completely wipe out Dubai's
179 pnwtraveler : This is simply not an issue for Canadians. And until the Canadian forward operating base was mentioned, it probably never registered much on their min
180 Sebring : EK wants rights to three cities, with the possibility of multiple flights per day, certainly at Toronto. It is what it is. The government wouldn't wa
181 RJ111 : That's true that there will be less demand, so i'm going to assume there's 2 daily flights to LHR and FRA in total between LH/AC/BA. If EK do come in
182 Post contains links Sebring : Except Europe is a more important market and as I have said, if market consolidation is the result, it might not impact consumers equally. The impact
183 Malayil : If passengers want to go to Europe let them, why should LH, BA, and AC be so reliant on passengers of Asian or African origin to fill up those yields.
184 NorthStarDC4M : Let me lay this out step by step: EK is NOT after Canada-UAE traffic only, they are after Canada-India, Pakistan, Middle East, East Africa, South Wes
185 RJ111 : How likely to happen is that though? I would say very unlikely and even if it does it is still an example of the market voting with it's wallet regar
186 golfradio : How many destinations does AC directly operate in the Indian Subcontinent, ME, East Africa and SW Asia and Australia? None. So your example where you
187 Sebring : That's a fine assumption on your part, but I don't buy it. Air Canada's ability to offer those services is predicated on its overall profitability, j
188 Sebring : Wrong! Air Canada does get significant sub-continent business which it hands off to other airlines in London and Paris, most notably. Air Canada, for
189 golfradio : Exactly, so how do fuel prices in DXB for EK affect AC? Now the only way EK hits AC is by way of non O&D traffic to Europe. So AC can carry non O
190 FLYYUL : You seem to forget the point, so get your bias out of the way. Air Canada and British Airways and Lufthansa and KLM are satisfying demand for the lar
191 golfradio : This is an Air Canada issue. The Government of Canada has no business looking out for carriers from Europe. Our protection to them is limited to the
192 FLYYUL : it's not just an Air Canada issue. Within the industry there has been concern expressed by foreign european carriers additionally. The burden of proo
193 Post contains images RJ111 : Well i don't think i've assumed a lot more than you, unless you have some nice figures you'd care to share with us all? If a route (YEG-LHR) is so fr
194 FLYYUL : The airline business is significantly unprofitable, you can just imagine how many services cling to the very last passenger
195 Sebring : Those routes are marginal indeed, because they are a) developmental, and b) a reflection of the cost structure the Canadian government imposes. Plain
196 Post contains images Jacobin777 : The Canadian Govt. can let EK fly 7x/weekly to one city for starters....YYZ and see how that effects markets.....if it has an adverse affect, then su
197 Viscount724 : You can delete the Middle East and Australia from your list. AC has been serving TLV and SYD for years. AC was also on the verge of launching seasona
198 pnwtraveler : To do that would be insane and would create a diplomatic furor many times over what is currently going on. EK could easily hire a Canadian accounting
199 Sebring : They can also stand on their heads and whistle Dixie, but as I have said, the government has its cow and is content to let it graze unmolested. If EK
200 Kaiarahi : You raised it, not me.
201 RJ111 : I think we just think differently about how many Pax YYC-DXB would steal off YEG-LHR. I suspect it would be marginal particularly if YEGians hate tra
202 Sebring : The issue is Air Canada's ability to offer new, marginal routes, marginal because of the newness of the route - long haul routes often take years to
203 huaiwei : True. Unfortunately, this is a forum about the aviation industry, not about politics. This is new to me. I have yet to come across any reputable lite
204 Post contains images Jacobin777 : It was an idea worth bringing up, and it wouldn't take too much accounting, etc. One would easily be able to see what kind of effect EK is having on
205 Multimark : And destroy thousands of Canadian job during the experiment? No thanks. You may have noticed Canada has a signficantly smaller aviation market than t
206 huaiwei : Opening up one air market causes the lost of thousands of Canadian jobs? Is this the kind of propaganda the Canadian government is telling its citize
207 YOWza : Potentially, yes. You should make up your mind, are your issues with AC or the government of Canada? As for propaganda and state messaging let's take
208 huaiwei : Explain how you would arrive at those figures. Oh yes, the government of Singapore is a prime example of spreading propaganda. Of late it has: - made
209 Jacobin777 : If there is proof that this would happen, then certainly its in the best interest of the Canadian Government to prevent EK from expanding.....however
210 Sebring : Air Canada and Westjet do not participate in those markets. Specialist carriers, like First Air and Canadian North, service those subsidized routes,
211 YOWza : Where did you get all of that information? The state newspaper that has its content and tone entirely dictated by the powers that be? LOL. Let's not
212 AirbusCanada : You have no idea about Basic economics, do You? First let’s tackle the issue of Service loss: Most of the YYZ/YVR/YUL/YYC passengers transfer throu
213 Viscount724 : Even 2 or 3 new daily flights don't generate "hundres/thousands" of new jobs. Foreign airlines normally contract out their handling and the handling
214 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : Sounds like subsidies to me...which is still opposite to which you claimed...the U.S. Govt. forces no carriers.... There's a balance of "give and tak
215 AirbusCanada : Double daily 380 service will bring a lot more than a few subcontracted baggage handling jobs. This will bring in hundreds of direct jobs, including
216 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...but I didn't make that statement you quoted...
217 Sebring : I don't know why you think San Francisco is a good example of anything to do with Canada. It's another five hours of flying from Toronto to San Franci
218 AirbusCanada : Sorry Jacobin777, it should be Viscount not you. I dont' know why your id is showing up there.....
219 FLYYUL : And how would you account for the loss of 2 or 3 international flights elsewhere? These passengers won't come out of thin air, passengers are not a r
220 Kaiarahi : Nor does the Canadian government. 7F, 5T and other carriers who are subsidized to serve remote communities choose to do so. Most of the communities w
221 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Last I recall, Vancouver was in Canada and EK wants to eventually serve western Canada also...regardless, I added SFO as an example along with Toront
222 Viscount724 : What subsidies are those? I didn't think there were any direct subsidies to airlines serving remote communities in Canada's north.
223 Sebring : It's relevant in that it follows the pattern Canada has established for most new entrants. If you intend to launch new services, start with three fre
224 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I'm equating the concept..not the cities...its quite simple. If AC wants a "foot" in the Middle East, South Asia, etc.-rather than keeping "protectiv
225 AirbusCanada : I agree with you passengers are not renewable resourece. Who do you think filled the void left by BA/LH when they reduce service to Canadian destinat
226 Viscount724 : AF is not state-owned. The French government's stake in AF-KL is now under 20%.
227 9252fly : As it seems likely the issue is that there is very little O&D between Canada and UAE relative to other bilaterals,would it not seem better for Can
228 Viscount724 : Are you overlooking that AC serves 4 of the largest Asian markets west of Japan -- HKG/PEK/PVG/ICN -- with nonstop service to HKG/PEK/PVG from both Y
229 YOWza : You're kidding right? Do you know the particulars of any of the revenue sharing agreements AC has in place through EU carriers? I'm guessing by your
230 Sebring : Thank you, I was going to post that myself, and I would add that AC also had a codeshare with EVA to TPE that it chose to give up and has liberal cod
231 Multimark : The very fact they would try this shameful tactic should have silenced the EK fanboys.
232 travelin man : This is all very simple. The government of Canada views that anything good for AC = good for Canada. Bad for AC = Bad for Canada. Anybody trying to sa
233 9252fly : Anyone trying to say this isn't bullying tactics on EK behalf is just deluding themselves.
234 Sebring : Okay, explain to me the monopoly for Porter at Toronto Island, the high fees and taxes at major airports, the fact we have a domestic jet fuel tax, a
235 Post contains links and images CGKings317 : I was listening to the Speech from the Throne and in it, the Harper government puts forth the following initiative (any text in bold is my emphasis):
236 travelin man : OK, I'll explain -- it's Socialism at work. The Government knows what's best for AC, down to language, pet policy, etc. Now, of course some of these
237 Sebring : I don't think it's Socialism. I gather it's the new American thing to call any government action you don't like Socialism, even though most Americans
238 AirbusCanada : Yet French Govt. is the largest single stockholder of AF-KL group. !!!! Yes, Direct flight to four destination to serve a over 60% of world's populat
239 RJ777 : Shouldn't they have added Vancouver BEFORE the Olympics?
240 Sebring : Actually, many Asia carriers serve lots of Canada and their countries have multiple daily services because of the kinds of bilaterals they have negot
241 YOWza : Very few. How many trips or what data do you have to suggest otherwise? None, would be my guess. YOWza
242 pnwtraveler : You are ignoring the new carriers who started service during this period. TK, LAN and a few others might have a few comments about that. And has been
243 Fly2YYZ : Are you serious?! Tell that to all the Canadians employed at Air Canada. Seriously EK had their chance with the 6 weekly flights, but got too greedy
244 AirbusCanada : How about 4 trips over the last year..and yes there were a lot of Canadains in those flights- !!!!
245 Sebring : Yippee. And how many of them were going to Dubai as their final destination?
246 thenoflyzone : You dont start a route just because a city is hosting the winter olympics for 2 weeks. Not to mention that EK would not have much traffic to take the
247 Viscount724 : Air China announced a few days ago that they're increasing PEK-YVR from 7 to 10 flights a week starting in June.
248 Viscount724 : The UAE population is about 4.5 million (and only 15 to 20% are UAE citizens....most UAE residents are temporary foreign workers). Two UAE carriers o
249 Sebring : There you go - a response to real market growth. Canada finally gaining preferred destination status will grow that market. And AC is going daily yea
250 Post contains images YVRLTN : Supposedly CZ - been rumored for the past few years, believe it when I see it. As far as I can see, the largest losers with the result of increased E
251 ytz : Is that a big deal since any airline flying to DXB will pay their rate for fuel and any airline flying out of Pearson will pay our rates for fuel? Th
252 ytz : I don't see what the big deal is here. The South Asian community in Toronto is large but in no way is it solely responsible for traffic between Canada
253 Post contains links thenoflyzone : Air Canada's response. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/1.../cbusiness_us_aircanada_emirates_1 Thenoflyzone
254 Post contains links ytz : The war of words is heating up: Air Canada strikes first: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...osal-as-subterfuge/article1495475/ Emirates fires bac
255 matthew11 : I don't think Emirates is ever going to stop fighting. I think the government should grant Emirates once daily flights to start off with just for Toro
256 Sebring : They already keep those statistics on three EK flights per week. Load factor has been reported at 61%.
257 DavidYYC : This thread just does not want to slip away: {That type of government intervention, I found unacceptable,” Mr. Rovinescu told reporters after his po
258 Post contains images behramjee : LOL....in the recent Globe & Mail article, EK claims the load is 91% for 2009
259 airceo : I had an exchange with EK Sr VP Andrew Parker about this on my blog (http://airceo.com/2010/02/emirates-fights-for-canada-chapter-2/) The 91% figure
260 Multimark : No, rather some of us do not want Canadian companies to compete on an uneven playing field with a subsidized state carrier. Ever stop to think how "o
261 Viscount724 : What's the third major UAE airline apart from EK and EY?
262 pnwtraveler : In the Toronto Star version of the article Andrew Parker says "its 1950's thinking to say the protection of the flag carrier is more inmportant than c
263 whiteguy : What has the Canadian Government been doing for AC and SA partners? You have examples????? The only intervention that has been done has hurt AC more
264 starac17 : I agree with that statement and I would relate this to the Wal-Mart effect on many small town throughout the US and Canada as well. Where the Wal-Mar
265 JoeCanuck : I really don't get it. Unfair competition only exists when the same product is being offered by competing companies. In this case, EK and EY are offer
266 rolfen : riiight...
267 threepoint : I think you're confusing 'direct' with 'nonstop'. To the UAE from Canada, there are currently many 'connecting' services, few if any 'direct' service
268 JoeCanuck : Pardon my confusion. Let's use non stop then. How many non stop flights are Canadian carriers making to the UAE or trying to make THROUGH the UAE? So
269 threepoint : To the UAE: none of course, nor will they do so in the foreseeable future, unless a CRA 705 ULH is built. Through the UAE: none currently, but if the
270 Post contains images Jacobin777 : I'm curious as to why EK flies the big beast if its loads are so low....is it possibly because they are making money with said load factors or is it
271 Sebring : I would suspect AC will do fine with the right aircraft, which is the 787 and its lower cost base. The A340-300 couldn't do Toronto-Delhi without pay
272 threepoint : Or perhaps EK feels it would have a better bargaining position to increase to daily YYZ flights if it were already using their largest aircraft. No s
273 Sebring : Not to mention the PR value of being the only airline operating a 380 to Canada. It gives the impression of strong demand and if you are airport oper
274 whiteguy : I believe its all PR by using the A380. There's only about 60 seats difference between the 380 and the largest B773 in EK fleet, depending on which o
275 threepoint : Good point. They certainly trumped AF - long thought to be the first airline to introduce the 380 to Canada. Airports have invested millions in makin
276 Jacobin777 : Well, EK is in the business of making money....if they are losing money, one could be confident they would fly a smaller plane...but point well taken
277 Viscount724 : Looking only at distance, the shortest current route from western Canada, at least from the major YVR market, is via the Pacific with a connection in
278 joecanuck : Yes to all of the above. If there is a choice between non stop and connecting, I choose non stop every time. Transiting is exhausting. Adding extra h
279 Kaiarahi : Basics, as I see them: 1. When negotiating a deal, each side looks for something of value from the other. In a commercial/trade deal, why would I give
280 Post contains links and images Jacobin777 : ....that is completely false. It is the Canadian Govt. which has declined to negotiate for open skies (for whatever reason). "Meanwhile, the UAE's ma
281 Kaiarahi : Read it carefully: "Meanwhile, the UAE's major carriers, Emirates and Etihad Airways, have been aggressively lobbying for an "open skies" agreement w
282 Viscount724 : Other factors also have to be considered. For example, given the choice of a cramped nonstop longhaul 10-abreast 777 (like EK's) or a one-stop 9-abre
283 threepoint : Yes it is - no argument. I guess I was looking at BOM rather than DEL, which is a bit more tricky to get to on Star Alliance (the only option unless
284 blrsea : What would Totally agree here. There isn't anything that Canada will gain while allowing EK to make more money on this route. There is no free trade i
285 joecanuck : No...but I was flying out of Calgary once a month so a direct flight would have been desirable to me. I'm talking about connecting through DXB, Non s
286 threepoint : You'll find that at any airport. Didn't you say that you were bound for Yemen, Iran, Jordan atc? So wouldn't a connection through Dubai pose the same
287 Post contains links jayeshrulz : EK Wants To Add VCV,Calgary And Up Toronto #2 (by jayeshrulz Mar 13 2010 in Civil Aviation) Please continue here....
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