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The Last Four Minutes Of Air France Flight 447  
User currently offlineosteogenesis From Germany, joined May 2003, 647 posts, RR: 2
Posted (4 years 10 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 60574 times:

Very interesting article on AF447 (in english):

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,679980,00.html

356 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 60405 times:

Surely without the DFDR / QAR and CVR, this is just hypothesis...?


A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 60315 times:

Interesting but it seems a bit early to draw those conclusions.

Cue 100 posts about Airbus pilots not having total control of their aircraft anyway.


User currently offlineAirbusA370 From Germany, joined Dec 2008, 253 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 60196 times:

I read the german version and there were too many factual errors to take it seriously...

User currently offlinecasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4794 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 60004 times:

There is a lot of supposition in the article, but they do cover some of the key points from the transmissions that made it back to the base. Don't forget they recovered quite a bit of debris and bodies. So the Impact conditions may be fairly well documented. The Oxygen masks not being deployed suggest that the plane never did loose pressurization. If you assume things went bad over 4 minutes and that the plane stalled. it would take you about 4minutes to plunge at around 90-100 MPH to the ocean.


Either way, the Pitot tubes, Airbuses Computer Interpretation, and the pilot's flight plan and weight are all going to be heavily scrutinized .


The CVR and FDR will no doubt be crucial to forming up whether all of the suppostion and educated guesses are correct, but I think Airbus is fairly certain that the Pitot tubes played a critical role in the disaster.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineWoof From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 59914 times:

Quoting RJ111 (Reply 2):
Cue 100 posts about Airbus pilots not having total control of their aircraft anyway.

There's no need. Your post already makes that fact clear.


User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1110 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 10 months 1 day ago) and read 59759 times:

While the theory can be true, I just despise the sensationalism of such articles.

"The reconstruction of the horrific final four minutes reveal continuing safety problems in civil aviation."

Excuse me?? Ever thought about stoping to drive your car due to its high inherent danger?!  

Oh well...


User currently offlineNicoEDDF From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 1110 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 59694 times:

Quoting Woof (Reply 5):
There's no need. Your post already makes that fact clear

But nobody yet has proven that it is beneficial for safety if pilots have absolute control over their aircraft.

The bottom line is, there are a few ways to obtain a high degree in safety, there is none to obtain perfection, neither with absolute control, nor without.


User currently offlinemarcus From Mexico, joined Apr 2001, 1808 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 months 23 hours ago) and read 59436 times:

From the article...

For several years now, Airbus has offered its customers a special safety program - called "Buss" -- at a cost of €300,000 per aircraft. If the airspeed indicator fails, this software shows pilots the angle at which they must point the plane.
************************************
I think all safety programs should be standard......



Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
User currently offlineCO787EWR From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 months 20 hours ago) and read 58786 times:

Quoting Woof (Reply 5):
Quoting marcus (Reply 8):
For several years now, Airbus has offered its customers a special safety program - called "Buss" -- at a cost of €300,000 per aircraft. If the airspeed indicator fails, this software shows pilots the angle at which they must point the plane.
************************************
I think all safety programs should be standard......

I'm surprised this isn't standard on all aircraft manufactured after this became available.


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8626 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 58418 times:
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While I realise that the article is purely speculation I am somewhat comforted by this part :

...According to this scenario, the pilots would have been forced to watch helplessly as their plane lost its lift. That theory is supported by the fact that the airplane remained intact to the very end. Given all the turbulence, it is therefore possible that the passengers remained oblivious to what was happening. After all, the oxygen masks that have been recovered had not dropped down from the ceiling because of a loss of pressure. What's more, the stewardesses weren't sitting on their emergency seats, and the lifejackets remained untouched. "There is no evidence whatsoever that the passengers in the cabin had been prepared for an emergency landing," says BEA boss Jean-Paul Troadec....

It would be some measure of comfort to those left behind to think that it is possible that apart from the flight deck crew everyone else may have just thought that they were in turbulence and the actual end came without anyone else being aware that it was so much more than that .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3836 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (4 years 10 months 19 hours ago) and read 57672 times:

That article is horrible, the style sounds like a tabloid, and in general it sounds like a German 8th grade student has written it. It goes through the tenses like I go through my underwear. Why don't these large newspapers like Spiegel get some native speakers to read the articles before publishing?

Funny thing, I realized only now that it is called "pitot tube", and this after being a pilot for 12 years. I always thought it was the "pilot" tube.
Oh well, you never stop learning new things.

Soren   

[Edited 2010-02-25 13:40:32]


All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlineplanespotting From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3539 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (4 years 10 months 18 hours ago) and read 56349 times:

Every other sentence seems to make some kind of leap without filling in the gaps. Obviously, there is nothing to fill in the holes, since we don't know anything about the flight other than it crashed in the ocean and had almost every critical system fail in the minutes leading up to it.


Do you like movies about gladiators?
User currently offlineweb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 750 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 10 months 18 hours ago) and read 55567 times:
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the leaps and bounds this article makes are unbelivable!

I would want to know where they got there information from, such as the fuel planing- although intresting I honestly from the bottom of my heart hope that piece of information is a lie- or else i wont be flying AF again.

other things such as the pilots not having any controll of the aircraft seams like BS, of course they had controll, now if they didnt know how to controll the plane in the direct law it means that either a) there training wasnt good, or b) airbus made the controll logics so different that they should be changed.

I think that it is a bit early and extreemly speculative to write an acount of a crash with no survivors, little wreakage, and even less on board info. the only thing this magasin is going off is the bodies, tailfin, and ascars messages -which is not much info at all.



Boiler Up!
User currently offlinedstefanc From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 63 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (4 years 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 53354 times:

Hey,

I read another article a while back in Popular Mechanics about this crash and have to say that the articles compare well. This one has a lot more detail, but it's been almost 4 months since I read the other one, so I'm sure more research has become available. What I don't understand is why everyone is stating that this is complete garbage. It is a newspaper article, so obviously a complete 10s of pages report will not be given with detailed information on how the data was derived. It is intended for general public, who most definitely do not want this article to be scientifically based (even engineers being presented information usually like layman terms instead of equations and numbers sometimes if something is outside of their field of expertise). Yes, a source would have been helpful to back up the data, but I believe that the information could go either way: no proof that it's right, but at the same time no proof that it is wrong.

Sorry for the bashing, but it is getting a bit tiring reading a lot of posts where people take the role of being experts, when they truly are not. Say something constructive and not just blurt out that what you read is wrong without having any reason stating that it is. For example, some saying that there is little data collected from the crash. However, for example, it was very interesting to me how the article stated that the pilot's body was recovered, which provided so many clues. Now will you guys state that that's false? Just that one clue revealed quite a bit of information.

OK I'm done.

Everyone have a good one.


User currently offlinegolftango From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 53249 times:

Quote:
Another large-scale search for the stricken plane's "black box" flight recorders is due to begin in the coming weeks. Once again some 2,000 square kilometers (800 square miles) of mountainous ocean floor will be swept, some of it by a submarine from from the northern German city of Kiel.

They are?


User currently offlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6542 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (4 years 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 53165 times:

The article tells nothing new really. But it does provide one theory, that...

1. The crew deliberately avoided a diversion around the weather because they were loaded to the limit with cargo and consequently were fuel strapped.

2. When losing airspeed data the crew concentrated all efforts on "restarting" the flight control into normal law, instead of handflying in alternate law based on alpha, engine N1 and altitude data. And they allowed the plane into a stall from which they failed to recover.

It may be all wrong, or it could be right, there is no way we can know that (yet).

If correct, then it is rather hard words on AF. It indirectly tells that AF compromised passenger comfort and safety on cargo profit and/or costs and inconvenience of an unscheduled fuel stop (at Lisbon or elsewhere). And it less indirectly tells about severe incompetence by the flight crew.

What we know for sure:

1. They lost airspeed data.

2. Losing airspeed data is a mojor inconvenience which severely increases flight crew workload. But it should not compromise flight safety, unless something else goes terribly wrong.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineRJ111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (4 years 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 53047 times:

Quoting dstefanc (Reply 14):
I read another article a while back in Popular Mechanics about this crash and have to say that the articles compare well. This one has a lot more detail, but it's been almost 4 months since I read the other one, so I'm sure more research has become available.

It's probably in the right ball park to be honest - pitot tube malfunction causing instability at high speed in the dark of night, kinda reminds me of that Peruvian 757 crash a bit. I don't like the assumptions it makes about the A/P though. Surely the pilots should have been able to recover from a stall or disengage the A/P - i mean i've never flow an airliner but that's one of the first things you learn.


User currently offlinem11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 53040 times:

Quoting marcus (Reply 8):
From the article...

For several years now, Airbus has offered its customers a special safety program - called "Buss" -- at a cost of €300,000 per aircraft. If the airspeed indicator fails, this software shows pilots the angle at which they must point the plane.
************************************
I think all safety programs should be standard......

Yes, absolutely. It kinda reminds me how automakers charge for things like stability control and side curtain airbags when those features have been proven to save lives.



My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
User currently offlineCX flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6641 posts, RR: 55
Reply 19, posted (4 years 10 months 16 hours ago) and read 52391 times:

I am not sure if this has been covered elsewhere as there is far too much to read, but I keep seeing people come to the conclusion that because the masks did not drop, there must have been no loss of cabin pressure. Are there any engineers out there or people in the know who might be able to tell us a bit more about the system? Is there a way for the cabin to lose pressure and for the masks NOT to drop? If the pitot/static tubes were completely iced over and unable to sense pressure, does this affect the cabin altitude sensor or does it have its own system based on internal pressure only? Is it possible for the aircraft to have suffered at least partial structural failure resulting in the inability to deploy oxygen masks?

User currently offlineULMFlyer From Brazil, joined Sep 2006, 475 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 50167 times:

I can't believe the claim about the fuel. The article is basically saying that the flight is not legal in terms of reserves, so they cheat and enter Bordeaux as the final destination. I'd love to hear from the pros about this. Interestingly, AF 459 (GRU-CDG), also an A332, didn't mind diverting a little around the worst part of the storm. Tracks here:

http://www.bea.aero/en/enquetes/flig...ajectoires/trajectoires010609.html

I also remember pilots saying that pitch/power settings for ASI loss was a memory item. No need to consult the QRH. Anybody can confirm this?



Let's go Pens!
User currently offlineTheredbaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2329 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (4 years 10 months 14 hours ago) and read 49971 times:

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 16):
And it less indirectly tells about severe incompetence by the flight crew.

What we know for sure:

1. They lost airspeed data.

2. Losing airspeed data is a mojor inconvenience which severely increases flight crew workload. But it should not compromise flight safety, unless something else goes terribly wrong.

Correct the article makes a lot of assumptions
It also puts the blame on someone, for me its simply incredible that with the very few data can get to this, Ill wait the CVR and the FDR.

Regards TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 1005 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 10 months 13 hours ago) and read 49114 times:

I saw a couple issues with this article and a couple questions.

First off, A pitot tube failure of any kind should not bring down an airplane with pilots of this caliber. A descent maybe, but a crash probably not. But there were those pilots that stalled a CRJ at 41,000 and didn't recover in time so it is possible though I would imagine unlikely.

Secondly, The air data computers take information from information from a number of sources so I find it even harder to believe that a pitot tube would cause a crash.

Another thing that I didn't see mentioned is that if the pitot tubes were icing up so would the other instruments so why leave them out?

The whole bit about "testing pitot tubes only to minus 40 and 30,000 ft". There are certain conditions that are required for an aircraft to pic up ice. Two being 42 degrees and colder temps and moisture. When you get down to temps like -40 it is so cold that the moisture is already frozen so it won't stick to the aircraft. The other side of this is that above 30,000ft there is very little if any moisture.

So one of my big questions is though, surely an A330 has pitot heat right? and assuming they were in icing conditions wouldn't they get an ICE warning before they got the pitot tube failure?

WIth all the information I get from AOPA about Pitot and Carb Ice surely Airbus would have thought about this when they designed the A330. This brings up the idea of a faulty pitot, which is probably the most plausible. The troubling part of this is both how Airbus handled the prospect of a faulty pitot and how the aircraft responded when they did fail.

With all these thoughts it leaves me to suggest that we should wait for the CVR and CDRs to be found before we start considering this article as what really happened.

Quoting dstefanc (Reply 14):
It is intended for general public, who most definitely do not want this article to be scientifically based (even engineers being presented information usually like layman terms instead of equations and numbers sometimes if something is outside of their field of expertise).

Just a little insight on to why some people still might have a problem with this article. As a flight instructor I can tell you that there are ways to explain things in "layman terms" that are more accurate than a lot of the articles that come out of major new outlets. This is most likely why people on this forum are so critical of aviation related news reports. I could be wrong but thats just what I think.



One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineWROORD From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 972 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 10 months 13 hours ago) and read 48753 times:

[quote = Guau, respuesta = 5] [/ quote]

Quoting osteogenesis (Thread starter):
Quoting MPDPilot (Reply 22):
WIth all the information I get from AOPA about Pitot and Carb Ice surely Airbus would have thought about this when they designed the A330. This brings up the idea of a faulty pitot, which is probably the most plausible. The troubling part of this is both how Airbus handled the prospect of a faulty pitot and how the aircraft responded when they did fail.

I read somewhere that Airbus recognized the problem with the pitot tubes and recommended the installation of at least one of them from a different manufacturer, but AF did not follow that recommendation.


User currently offlineLTC8K6 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 10 months 12 hours ago) and read 48140 times:

IIRC, AF was already replacing the tubes ahead of the recommendation, but had not gotten to that airframe yet...

[Edited 2010-02-25 20:31:04]

25 Post contains links NAV20 : I think the matter of 'calibre' is increasingly open to question, MPDPilot. The fact that the Captain's body was found strongly suggests that only th
26 KochamLOT : Was it not true that this tragedy was found spread over a large span of area - I thought I had heard that the plane broke apart in midair which explai
27 MPDPilot : Excellent post and very very true. This is indeed troubling though I would think that even the most junior pilot on that flight would have logged tho
28 DiamondFlyer : 3701 had really nothing to do with a stall, other than it started the event. The crew recovered from the stall, and then got themselves in trouble, p
29 Post contains links NAV20 : These are apparently the recorded hours of the two pilots concerned, MPDPilot:- "2 co-pilots: * French * 37 and 32 years old * Entered Air France in
30 Baroque : Where do you get those numbers from?
31 spacecadet : I thought the same. I read that and I was like "whoa, that can't be true." That right there is an accident waiting to happen, and it would be one of
32 NAV20 : From Captain Drappier of Airbus, Baroque. Please see penultimate paragraph of Post 25 above.[Edited 2010-02-25 22:28:04]
33 flood : Just thought I'd clarify the fuel "loophole" as was mentioned in the article. The original German version used the word "Ausnahmeregelung" which was i
34 kiwiandrew : It was a lot longer than several hours before wreckage was found , if I recall some debris , which initially was thought to have come from AF447 was
35 Burkhard : And this in every article since 60 years. Der Spiegel is known to replace investigation by imagination and information by propaganda - and agitation
36 Aloha717200 : If true, then the pilots forgot Rule #1 in a failure: Fly the plane.
37 Zeke : True, and it presented as such. they are not claiming that this is what actually happened, this is a hypothesis they are presenting. It is a hypothes
38 XT6Wagon : a loophole is a legal way around the rules, so it still is a valid translation.
39 flood : Sure, a loophole is a legal way around the rules. However, they did not go "around" any rules. They actually followed the rules in place for their ex
40 casInterest : There are multiple pitots, but the issue here was that the ones from this manufacturer had some issues and were under replacement. One of the strong
41 sandyb123 : LOL yeah, I had a very interesting conversation with the pilot (not PIC) at the bar onboard an A380 last week. He explained that the computer on the
42 pylon101 : Still the article - though well written - stinks. It suggests that AF 447 captain has got payload close to MTOW. It implies that Air France aircraft -
43 NAV20 : On the Der Spiegel report, Zeke, plus the messages transcript (and analyses thereof) that were published at the time:- "One thing is certain: The pil
44 Zeke : The words YOU used are not in the artice, I asked you what is "reset the flight control computer" ? But this is what I find so funny, it is not like
45 Post contains images NAV20 : I know all that, Zeke - I don't matter at all, I'm just one of those annoying passengers who mess the airline business up for the professionals..... B
46 Zeke : A large active cumulonimbus cloud.
47 Baroque : ???by accepting a totally undocumented figure of 3 hours stick time out of nowhere in particular????
48 Post contains images Theredbaron : For 4 minutes (at least)?, Its quite a long time, and an eternity when you are having trouble. Correct, and also if everything is programming the air
49 jreuschl : If the plane was in a free-fall, even for a length of 4 minutes, is there anything that even the most experienced pilot could have done to fix the sit
50 NAV20 : So are you saying they should just have stayed out of it, Zeke? In other words, that it was pure pilot error? I tend to agree that they should have d
51 giopan1975 : That article should answer your question. Had they diverted, they could have risked having to land in Lisbon to refuel. This article is highly specul
52 Post contains images AutothrustBlue : All F/CTL computers calculate how the control surfaces should move based on the pilot's inputs. The computer's don't judge/vote/consider the pilot's
53 Gipsy : What was there to reset and cause a fatal crash? The FCPC and FCSC can not be resetted (as far as I know) and that's "all" you need to fly...but I hav
54 LTBEWR : Is Der Spigel any different than any of us here on a-net? This was a terrifiying situation, one whose cause is not really known but with the limited i
55 Post contains links and images Gipsy : Meh they can be resetted... See here : http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdf...A330-A340_Overhead_Pushbuttons.pdf
56 David L : My recollection is that AF were more proactive than Airbus were and, as someone else said, had already begun replacing them before AF447. If you're t
57 billreid : WHilst I am not a professional pilot I have a question that an A/B trained pilot might help me with. I do not understand is if the "pitot tubes" froze
58 Post contains links Gipsy : I'm also not a pilot...but I think you still have the radio altimeter and GPS...if the whole pitot tube was frozen then also the altitude could not b
59 ULMFlyer : Thanks, Zeke, for the very informative post. It makes a lot more sense. Now, whether this policy puts some undue pressure on captains not to deviate
60 pylon101 : It's an interesting question, by the way. If there is no way to measure airspeed - why not to use GPS which gives at least rough estimation? I have ne
61 David L : Not to me. I seriously doubt they failed to notice the reduction in altitude all the way down. What caused the aircraft to deviate from controlled, l
62 billreid : I still ask if in a stall, why not give full throttle to induce lift? If the computer fails to allow the pilots to do basic maneuvers when in a "shutd
63 giopan1975 : No system, no automation, no airplane has been built to be flawless. Remember the 737 rudder problem and the people that were sacrifised before manuf
64 kiwiandrew : While I am definitely not an expert I have seen explanations from people better informed than I am why GPS is not a viable option . A 'rough' estimat
65 Post contains images AutothrustBlue : After a second reading, I realized my mistake. The 7-8 seconds you state are more accurate. Here's where I got the 5 seconds from: It took the engine
66 billreid : Where I see a problem is if the software crumbles and cascades into failure then this is not a simple problem in a single acft system or part. The re
67 Post contains images astuteman : You don't know this? And yet You without question know the answer to the former, and yet still post the question. Which is beyond malicious given the
68 Post contains images Zeke : I have flown through the ITCZ more times than I can care to remember, often times you are faced with continuous high level cloud for hundreds of mile
69 David L : And that's patently false. There are a whole lot of Air France pilots who prefer the Airbus or, at least, have no strong preference. Either you misun
70 giopan1975 : I have flown through the ITCZ 7-8 as a passenger and all I can say is that my airplanes could have flown inside clouds, which could have been topping
71 Post contains images mandala499 : Actually, the final trajectory is likely to be what have happened... And that's about the only good part of the article... the rest, is just scaremon
72 Post contains images NAV20 : Just in self-defence, mandala499, that wasn't me talking, I was quoting Der Spiegel. Thanks for the rest of the post, though. I agree that 'pitch and
73 Baroque : The original quote was: and the link in that post goes to the number of hours each of the crew had which for one was: * French * 58 years old * Entere
74 Post contains images AutothrustBlue : And's there's not much loss in that; 447 could have burned a little extra fuel to avoid the worst of the storm, and 228 more people could be walking
75 UALWN : The FAA and the JAA define the tests, not Airbus, not Boeing, not the French government. And I once talked to two UA 777 pilots going ORD-SFO who tol
76 Post contains links and images mandala499 : It doesn't matter, I was merely replying to something that was written. When it is you talking, there are subtle differences One should read this too
77 giopan1975 : What is Nav is trying to demonstrate (from my point of view) is the possibility that the two less experienced members of the cockpit crew were at the
78 wukka : Speedboat vs. Cruise ship. So what?
79 UALWN : Where should they put them instead? They are 330 pilots, probably cross-certified as 340 pilots too. Where should they fly instead? It's not like AF'
80 giopan1975 : Its either Air France or Airbus or God that could be in serious trouble. Can you see anybody else? This question could not have more than 1 reasonabl
81 Baroque : As are the comments, esp Sandilands' responses in those comments. Is the loading story possible?
82 Post contains images NAV20 : Finally see why we're at odds, Baroque. In my submission, the KISS principle applies. You appear to be quoting the Captain's hours; I was quoting tho
83 Post contains images JBirdAV8r : From your profile I see that you look like the typical collegiate aviator, with maybe 250-300 hours max. Do you consider yourself a risk because of y
84 Baroque : I guess what I am mainly saying is that my crystal ball does not have nearly the capacity of yours, nor are my conclusions from scanty data nearly as
85 UALWN : They were specifically talking about the two different FBW systems. Hence the relevance.
86 AirNZ : It may very well deepen the 'mystery' but such ignores the fact that any aircraft can crash/accident happen irrespective of who is flying it. Thus, b
87 osteogenesis : Some question to the Airbus pilots here in the discussion. How does an A330 behave in a stall in these circumstances? Wont it just drop the nose and g
88 Post contains links Zeke : In the tropics the tropopause can easily go above 60,000 ft, that is the level one would expect the tops of the CBs to extend to. No they don’t, in
89 Post contains images TeamAmerica : Some 90 posts in this thread, but prebennorholm has summed it up quite early. We know something went wrong, but it does not explain why AF447 crashed
90 giopan1975 : Zeke, I apologize for pressing on this but this is getting confusing. I also apologize for the off topic questions. I have read pilots saying that "y
91 AverageUser : His body was recovered from the Atlantic, whereas those of his two copilots sank to the bottom of the ocean still attached to their seats. That's one
92 mandala499 : three PRIM computer switches above the left seat (I think)... switch them all off and the plane goes to direct law... then switch them on again... Bu
93 Zeke : CBs have 3 distinct phases, in the developing phase they are fairly benign, in the mature phase more problematic for medium-high level flight, and in
94 Post contains images mandala499 : I did say, "switch then all off", either that, or switch the 3 IRUs off, which is not what I call a good idea at all... I did post the the same stuff
95 spacecadet : It's not really a big difference, it's more semantics. The problem is that there's a loophole - whether in policy or whatever else - that allows pilo
96 David L : Fair enough - I'm only going by potentially flawed memory and you tend to be more accurate with these things. However, I was under the impression tha
97 Kit777 : This is just my personal opinion, so please don't flame me too much! I have thought for a while that AF 447 bore some similarities to CI 006 back in t
98 David L : I believe so. However, I don't think any of the ACARS messages suggested an engine problem before other things started to go wrong.
99 Post contains images Kit777 : Yeah I also thought that, wasn't necessarily thinking of just an engine problem though. Could have been something fairly simple. Thanks Kit
100 Post contains links NAV20 : In fact, Kit777, one of the first ACARS messages indicated that the autopilot had disengaged, which is what it is designed to do if it does not have
101 Post contains links Zeke : 7 October 2008 http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/...2008/AAIR/pdf/AO2008070_prelim.pdf It was never out of control. The preliminary report does not
102 Kit777 : Aah yes, I do remember that but hadn't it only deteriorated to Alternate Law? Although if my memory serves me correct, the only two differences betwe
103 Post contains links AutothrustBlue : Almost; there's a couple other protections lost as well. Consider checking the link out for a detailed explanation on which ones are lost. http://www
104 hamster : I am not in the industry but am trying to put this together. The pilot tubes froze up so the actual speed was inaccurate. Did this or did this not cau
105 alwaysontherun : Anybody has any news on when exactly they start the search for the "black" boxes again please, and what the new search strategy is perhaps? Thanks, ##
106 Post contains links Revelation : Please see: France Resumes Search For AF 447 Wreckage (by BA84 Feb 17 2010 in Civil Aviation)
107 mandala499 : No, it did not malfunction. What it did was say "OK, I do not have any reliable data, so it's back to you Mr. Pilots." No... if the computer failed t
108 alwaysontherun : Cheers, I missed that one! Good thread………..so thanks! ### "I am always on the Run"###
109 Pihero : Floatsam has a nasty habit of coming back to the clean shores, and apparently so have bottom feeders : [quote = billreid, resposta = 62] Assim, todos
110 hamster : So failed pilot tubes or computer malfunctions aside, the plane iced up in the air. If there is ice buildup on the plane, there is never enough lift.
111 giopan1975 : That is an interesting point. Cheers Zeke![Edited 2010-02-28 12:27:36]
112 spacecadet : But the problem is, what if you run into severe weather en route as AF447 did? I'm sure the obvious answer is "divert around it and land at Bordeaux"
113 mandala499 : How many extra miles does a 50NM deviation right of track into a parallel offset incur??? Do a 30deg entry to the deviation... it's only an extra 15
114 Pihero : Give that idea up, SC. You haven't got the first idea of the power of an AF captain. For wiw, I've never had a decision challenged by either fleet or
115 Pihero : Very typical of you. That subject has been dealt with so many times and you've been proven wrong as many times, that I'm quite surprised to see it ag
116 Post contains links NAV20 : I suppose we should all have got used to this sort of 'flak' by now......... That 777 incident (back in 2005) didn't result in any 'dire consequences
117 Zeke : That is not correct, the 777 has had a number of events, including 8 cases of pitot tubes freezing up last year. Please list them, BTW for QF72 the A
118 Post contains images mandala499 : As in manouvered without autopilot? Or bypassed the computers in secondary laws, or just switched off the damn PRIMs and SECS and went direct law? Po
119 theredbaron : You are correct, but we had 20 threads about speculation before, so why keep guessing? Yes we know all of that and even wackadoodle theories, with no
120 NAV20 : I've never said they don't both have problems, mandala499. No-one has ever designed a perfect aeroplane, and no-one ever will. But we're currently di
121 mandala499 : No dire consequences, BUT, it is a Flight Control System data input problem with regards to trajectory control... which is the same as the Qantas 330
122 Post contains images Pihero : And I have plenty more at your service. Like, for instance, the fact that you and your friends somehow never mentioned that (quoting the BEA prelimin
123 giopan1975 : Could you explain what was going on other crews' minds that decided to go around the bad looking cloud formation, that AF447 did not think of? Say th
124 NAV20 : Frankly puzzled, Pihero. I haven't mentioned the fuel thing, I don't think it's an issue?
125 AverageUser : But the SEC computers would always stay powered no matter what the crew does? The SEC computers should also be safeguarded against any combination of
126 Pihero : By the way, why the question mark ? Oh yes ! you did, post #50, and your exchange with giopan : [b]By the way, why the question mark ? What is also ve
127 Post contains images giopan1975 : Malaysian T7? What is that now? I, personally, do not have any need to "challenge" anybody in this Forum. I am participating out of curiosity and adm
128 Post contains images David L : And that's how he is able to say he never said both don't have problems. It's just coincidence ( ) that he only attacks those problems if they involv
129 Post contains links Pihero : See last paragraph of my # 120 post, or read here Once again, We weren't in those cockpits, we didn't know their radar settings, their speeds (whethe
130 ULMFlyer : And the El Al 777 didn't deviate at all.
131 Post contains images mandala499 : a not-severe icing of the pitot tubes would probably yield a slow series of events... perhaps an ECAM picking up the faults of one of the ADRs... pri
132 Post contains links AutothrustBlue : Anyone else see the difference in color in the area ELY010 went through and the area 447 went through? I am seeing a somewhat of an orange color for
133 comorin : Thanks, what a compelling graphic! From the AF447 threads, it seems that pax accounts on other flights did not indicate much turbulence. To my untrai
134 NAV20 : Pihero (and others), once and for all, I am not saying, and have never said, that the crew failed to divert in order to save fuel. I have pointed out
135 mandala499 : U really are asking for some pilots to commit assault and battery here... If you cannot fly without autopilot on instruments, you don't pass your bas
136 NAV20 : Agreed - but we don't know what instruments they had available. We 'know' that they lost the airspeed indicators. Can we be sure that they still had
137 JONukl : The shortest way is along a great circle and not what looks shortest on the map. Typically the shortest route is s-shaped when crossing the equator o
138 AutothrustBlue : I didn't find it. ULMFlyer did. See reply 20 I believe engine readings are not affected by an ADR disagree. A/Thr is lost however. Regards[Edited 201
139 Zeke : The ACARS messages ONLY suggest that one out of the three air data reference sources may have inoperative, leaving 2 other units available. It may ha
140 Pihero : Sorry, and without being impolite, I haven't waited for you to teach me that fact. Before you can say that, you'll have to determine the map projecti
141 giopan1975 : Maybe some kind of a problem with their radar or something else? Compare AF447 with AF459 who are both on exactly the same flightpath. AF459 seems li
142 theredbaron : Oh ! I love predictions that are accurate.... Correct and again thanks for the info, as always a pleasure to read you. Regards TRB
143 osteogenesis : Sorry, and without being impolite, I hope the accident was not caused by an arrogant pilot. A certain Mr. van Zanten comes to my mind when I read you
144 Pihero : @osteogenesis, Nobody is forcing you to read my posts, and to me this accident is not just interesting (as you said as OP). friends of mine died in th
145 Baroque : Thanks to Pihero, Mandala499 and Zeke for their informative posts. It is a serious issue and we are in your debt for your professional and informed op
146 Post contains images AutothrustBlue : Their contribution has been invaluable to say the least. Regards
147 JONukl : I don't understand why my friendly comments often causes irritation. As regard to the map-projection used I have two comments: a) Google Maps uses th
148 Zeke : World aeronautical charts and enroute charts nomally use a Lambert Conformal Conic Projection with two standard paralles.
149 Pihero : Fair enough For air navigation, most maps are Lambert-projections. The only changes are about the reference parallels, and the polar regions are , of
150 JONukl : Thanks! I have learned something new. In the meantime I have checked my sea-chart collection - they are all Mercator. Hence, the maps used at sea and
151 Post contains links Pihero : Thanks, Zeke. Crossed my post. Sometimes an finformation or a rather important piece of information goes totally unnoticed by all. This little snippe
152 NAV20 : Thanks for that, Pihero. But my question was, "Has that always been part of recurrent training?' From the material you link to, it hasn't been; accord
153 Zeke : As I motioned before earlier, that is when our simulator instructors would do it, or on approach, it is more time critical. In the cruise it is not a
154 AutothrustBlue : Inputs to the ADIRU are compared against strict margins to insure bad data doesn't cause a cascading result of problems like the one you mentioned. I
155 Pihero : What is it that you do not understand in : "A330/.340 PERIODIC TRAINING Briefing booklet 2008-2009 Briefings" ? May be you don't know that, by regula
156 NAV20 : Don't understand, Pihero - it's a direct quote from the Report you yourself linked to?
157 Pihero : So show it, then ! (Ctrl c / Ctrl v should do it )
158 NAV20 : Read Post 152 above - I quoted from the report?
159 PVG : I see a lot of techinical discussion here. What I found interesting in the article is that every other flight that night altered their flight path to
160 giopan1975 : I personally do not think AF will have to a lot of explaining if the cause of the accident is determined as severe icing. These look like 2 irrelevan
161 Pihero : Not enough, I'd like the url and the page.
162 Baroque : A question for persons sitting at the pointy end. How much variability is there in these big storm cells with time - short term variability say on a
163 Zeke : No aircraft is certified for flight into severe icing conditions, and no technology on passenger aircraft exists to detect it in advance. Radar does
164 Zeke : Large, the distance of one wingspan is the difference between going through a large cell and missing it. The lifecycle of a large storm maybe as shor
165 Baroque : I hoped and almost expected that was about the case. The weather bureau clients do not have quite as much hanging on the data!! Ouch! That gives cons
166 Post contains images AVLNative : I intentionally left off the because clause. I keep wondering whether the pilots were in some way incapacitated and therefore lacking the ability to
167 giopan1975 : Pilots' incapacitation for some unknown reason before entering the cloud followed by icing...1 in a trillion but still possible.....
168 NAV20 : I've been wondering about the same thing for some time, AVLNative. To me, it's significant that, during the four minutes or so before the aeroplane h
169 AutothrustBlue : Disclaimer: Theory/speculation below; it is not what I believe to be true at the moment. Is there any chance the icing in the storm was severe enough
170 NAV20 : Sorry, AutothrustBlue, neglected to answer your previous (constructive) post. We're not disagreeing. But even rain must produce some variations betwee
171 Post contains images mandala499 : Pihero, been away from our previous discussions to this accident, and only managed to get the second interim report downloaded and read a few days ago
172 giopan1975 : Maybe some explaining to themselves? No airliner likes to have a bunch of passengers complaining about how uncomfortable the flight had been or how b
173 casInterest : Question, and maybe this is old and I missed it, and perhaps it is just an out of radio range sort of issue, but was the following from the Interim r
174 mandala499 : Thank you for stating the totally obvious... but you missed the point on why I asked the question. Please look at 2 recent posts speculating on crew
175 casInterest : I am not trying to extend this, I am really looking for a cumulative gap theory, I have read both reports. I had to drop out of a lot of the old thre
176 mandala499 : It's more than one heck of a mystery! It's freaking all manufacturers out in a way. The biggest competition is looking into this with great interest
177 Post contains images AutothrustBlue : Whoops. I wasn't aware of this fact. ADR Disagree? or Pilot intervention? Regards[Edited 2010-03-04 08:58:50]
178 Post contains images mandala499 : Chill!!!!! I do suggest a read on the 2nd interim report (unless you want to pile through the (tens of (?)) thousands of post in the AF447 crash thre
179 Post contains images AutothrustBlue : I put 'regards' as a closing to the post. Didn't intend on having a different connotation.
180 Post contains links and images N14AZ : Flightblogger just posted an interesting article about Airbus’ A 340 prototype arriving in Darwin for flight testing. Obviously, some additional ins
181 IADCA : One dumb question from someone who knows nothing: The graphic accompanying the story cites the possibility of a deep stall. Isn't a deep stall pretty
182 Post contains images AutothrustBlue : Whatever is coming from the 4th window (probe?) is puzzling
183 JONukl : The two interim reports state that no radio contact was established between AF447 and DAKAR - perhaps due to wrong position, wrong flight plan, etc. C
184 Post contains links Pihero : Yeah ! I've noticed it too. Although there are a few genuine newcomers, there is also the "Bunch with an agenda", so we have to repeat and re-iterate
185 Guillermo : ...Or maybe the wing smashed the water surface in a near horizontal attitude with a high vertical speed component...I wrote this on Reply 242, posted
186 IADCA : That's exactly what I had thought.
187 JONukl : My memory may me playing a trick to me, but was this recreation /or simulation/ not discussed at length last year on the old thread regarding AF447.
188 Post contains images NAV20 : Glad it's over, mandala499. Really don't understand why, even though the two main makes of airliner nowadays have radically-different designs, we are
189 kiwiandrew : If you really have found a hole in it please explain ... if you are not prepared to explain why bother posting a 'teaser' ?
190 Post contains links comorin : Patrick Smith (Aviateur) has a good article in Salon about Der Speigel's AF 447 analysis: http://www.salon.com/news/air_travel...010/03/04/body_scanne
191 Post contains links and images NAV20 : OK, Kiwiandrew. In the first Report the BEA simply said that they didn't have the autopsy reports yet - so they said nothing about the condition of th
192 Post contains images theredbaron : Zeke, great post, but sometimes people think Pilots are dangerous air cowboys. Its their life at stake too! My thoughts exactly, the article puts som
193 Post contains links kiwiandrew : I have read your post and I am still trying to work out what you believe the hole is . It is because the BEA did not agree with the press conclusion
194 casInterest : It's an educated guess. and remember I want to see the CVR and FDRs, because what the ACARS and debris locations say is that this happened fast and i
195 Baroque : As it happens, that is exactly what the Aus population did in Feb with Toyota sales increasing. So glad you asked. Basically the answer is "not in th
196 NAV20 : No, kiwiandrew - it's because the BEA did not report (still less discuss and presumably refute) said conclusion. Which would in any case have emanate
197 kiwiandrew : Why would there be evidence that pax had drowned ? You had to have been still alive in the water in order to drown , if the plane impacted with a for
198 AutothrustBlue : During cruise the thrust levers are left (at least supposed to) in the CLB gate. When in the CLB gate, the maximum thrust that the FADECs can command
199 Post contains links and images Zeke : You should pop you head inside something like a F50/F70/F100 one day .... you will see Airbus was not the first with this. Notice the TOGA/GA/FLX/CLM
200 Daysleeper : Whoa what a thread – Almost Three hours reading and digesting this. Other than discovering a few more forum members with an obvious anti-airbus bias
201 slinky09 : The BEA report implies nothing. That, once again, is your interpretation that you are trying to imbue as some sort of fact. The BEA report is quite s
202 Post contains images mandala499 : Pihero, remember the "1g vs ice" thing? I wonder if it's the time now to open it up... Come on... U know the saying... if you want to talk the talk t
203 Pihero : Yeah, see if David is ok, too, and let's see if we could have something from the forum members. And add the "possible last trajectory" which could ex
204 Post contains links Pihero : That's a fact. Now, you should try and find out all the reasons why there wasn't a further message after that time stamp. See the antenna field, and
205 Post contains images mandala499 : Ah, yes we have... but they seem to keep blaming the crew on Boering incidents... when it comes to the Scarebus, they keep saying it's the systems/FB
206 Baroque : Only fair to add that there are at least three that I at least would be more than happy to fly with.
207 Post contains images comorin : Would that include NAV20 and his Sopwith Camel?
208 Post contains images David L : You seem to keep forgetting that airline pilots have substantially more training and experience than you did in your gliders all those years ago and
209 AutothrustBlue : Yes! Thank you for clarifying that. I had a hunch there was a limit to the roll rate; just wasn't sure of the numerical limits for the different laws
210 theredbaron : Supposed being the key word here. My thoughts exactly, no system will be 100% safe, mistakes are made, we are only human. Also lets remember that not
211 David L : Of course, that would only be the beginning. I'd better wait to see if I'm barking up the wrong tree completely before straining the grey cells furth
212 giopan1975 : No speed indication, no altimeter indication, increase thrust + nose up by 5 deg., loss of lift because of severe icing and stall warnings intentiona
213 Post contains images David L : I took Mandala499's question to be about what happens before the crew begins the unreliable speed procedures. And how does the 1g fit in? Don't get m
214 Post contains links NAV20 : Interesting news item in my own 'local newspaper' just today:- "DISTRACTED, stressed and confused by blaring cockpit alarms, the pilots of a Jetstar p
215 Post contains links and images AutothrustBlue : Jetstar was found to be at fault for changing the go-around procedures, which confused the pilots. All the pilots needed to do was push the thrust le
216 Baroque : Dear God. Please read the previous posts.
217 Post contains images David L : Which part of... "But the pilot in command did not move the thrust control lever into the correct position for ascent" ... do you not understand? Can
218 Post contains images NAV20 : That the 'pilot flying' should push the throttle levers forward and the engines should respond. That is exactly what would happen in any other type.[
219 David L : And, for NAV20's benefit, moving the levers to TOGA means pushing them as far forward as they'll go - no need for fine judgement and about as "simple
220 David L : ... which is the case on most types, if not all types, including the FBW Airbuses. ... and on a FBW Airbus. They did not get TOGA thrust because they
221 casInterest : Pihero, I could go on for days about why the com system wasn't working. And I have acknowledged that we still need the CVR/FDR to find out what occur
222 Post contains images mandala499 : Since U seem to be FCOM equipped, look under FCOM1.27.30 (F/CTL - Reconfiguration of F/CTL Laws) p.6 on the 320 and 1.27.30 p3 for the 330/340... giv
223 David L : Ah, OK... back to the drawing board I go. Track off-going is a speciality of mine.
224 Post contains images astuteman : It would be nice, but I don't think that's what "we're" doing. And IMO it never has been So the pilot can get on with flying the plane? I have to say
225 Post contains images tom355uk : "Why are the throttles rolling back on their own?????" Well said Mandala499, I have been reading this thread getting increasingly annoyed with NAV20'
226 Post contains images Daysleeper : It wasn’t specifically you I was referring too, but you have my apologies anyhow. Earlier on in the thread there was a definite superiority complex
227 David L : I think listening for 4 to 5 years to his uninformed nonsense is patience enough. It might have been funny for a couple of years - I can't remember b
228 slinky09 : I became a member after AF447 because I was fascinated about what happened to a successful commercial airliner ... which, without any known reason, p
229 Post contains images mandala499 : Bingo! That's generally it... (some minor details I'll add when I feel like to post it!) So, now, put that "maintain 1g" thing as an A330 or a 777...
230 casInterest : Lift is reduced ,drag is increased, which increases the stall speed and possibly lessens the angle of attack of the wings. Also, assuming the tail is
231 Post contains images David L : Thanks a bunch! Hopefully others will have chipped in by the time I get back to this tomorrow. I'd actually begun to think about that during my earli
232 tdscanuck : That is correct. A 777 will happily stall if you keep holding back on the yoke. But you're going to have to pull really really hard. Maybe I missed t
233 theredbaron : Thanks Mandala for answering my question and your expertise on the probable (icing and loss of lift/stall) theory. Best Regards TRB
234 Post contains links Pihero : Don't accept to be bullied by Prof Mandala ! 1/- The airplane weight and balance have been estimated at 0210Z at 205 tonnes with a CoG at 37.3 to 37.
235 rafaelyyz : How late before impact? Was that ever determined? FBW systems being so complex as they are, did someone forget that sometimes you may need maximum po
236 tdscanuck : Yes. No commercial jet in existance could have recovered from the low energy state the flight crew put that jet in. No. The engines responded exactly
237 AutothrustBlue : True, I was just pointing out that all aircraft that enter a low energy state like that of AF 296 would have the same result: crash. If the addition
238 tdscanuck : No, you don't need to. You certainly can, but you can also just manually push the throttles forward. Tom.
239 Zeke : You could push them forward 1/4", 1/2", 1", and even 2" and not get TOGA.
240 Post contains links ruscoe : My apologies if this has already been posted, there are too many posts to read in arrears: Part of a media release from the ATSB (Australian Airline T
241 Post contains images mandala499 : If the aircraft will happily stall if you keep holding back on the yoke, then why not keep Full Stall in the delivery acceptance test flights like th
242 Pihero : Sorry, guys, you're both dead. Now, let's have a cup of coffee, shall we ?
243 Post contains images David L : That was only my attempt at answering a question - I'll leave it to the pros. Don't mistake my ramblings for informed fact. That's what I thought but
244 Post contains images tom355uk : Unusually quiet though at the moment? Perhaps he has a bad case of syndrome. I'm not going to pretend that I know anywhere near as much as you with r
245 Post contains links and images David L : Like this... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_NSxSyrvYA ... but with less success in maintaining altitude? Don't dismiss the time difference. Perhaps
246 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Do the mods ever actually ban anyone from a.net? I can think of a few on other threads who are out and out liars, trolls , etc.
247 Post contains images tom355uk : Surely the result of an unserviceable (say blocked by ice, for argument's sake) pitot and A/THR remaining engaged would be the opposite, i.e. a pitch
248 ruscoe : I think a couple of you guys are too hard on NAV. You may have your tongue in your cheek, but some comments I find a tad distasteful. Last I heard thi
249 Post contains images David L : That's what I offered initially but I had my knuckles rapped because the question stated that the autopilot and auto-thrust are not engaged.
250 Baroque : Perhaps with a slight change, the only answer is perhaps a quote from J M Keynes that he uses himself. When the facts change, I change my mind. What
251 Pihero : The basic control law for these three examples is C*, in which g and pitch-rate feed-backs are blended. In such an airplane, at low speeds, pitch-rat
252 Post contains images tom355uk : Oh. Didn't see that! But if the
253 Post contains images David L : But he doesn't just ask questions, he makes serious allegations and he's been making the same allegations pretty much every time there's been a discu
254 David L : Ah, but... no pilot inputs, either! In other words (I think) what would happen if the crew didn't immediately take the controls?
255 AverageUser : I was actually reprimanded by the mods recently for "discussing the ... credibility or experience .. of other members." It seems that although someon
256 David L : I sympathise with your plight but I think that, aside from the obvious distraction, this thread is getting interesting regarding the final four minut
257 Post contains images Daysleeper : I think this thread has proved to be very educational. Just not about AF447
258 Post contains images Kaiarahi : Try reading the discussion between Pihero, Mandala, Zeke, DavidL, AutothrustBlue and you'll find it's neither of those things. I'm finding it informa
259 Post contains images tom355uk : very good! On the subject of this thread - I agree with the general consensus. One of the most entertaining and informative threads I have ever read
260 Post contains images mandala499 : We try and out a new spin on those "same old false arguments" to keep it as informative as possible for everyone (including those who has been there b
261 David L : Well, without knowing what else would affect it, if it carried on in that way without the thrust to weight ratio of the F-18, it would gain vertical
262 comorin : Re the Mulhouse incident (AF296) Pardon the O/T, but didn't the crew of IC605 make the same 'energy' mistake crashing his brand new A320 in BLR back i
263 tom355uk : I agree David, that all seems to tie in with what has been posited. BUT (and it is a big 'but') surely the pilots had enough time to recognise and re
264 David L : I.e. "nothing" was right, "everything" was wrong. Throw in darkness, rough weather and the possibility that they hadn't been completely focussed on t
265 AutothrustBlue : The aircraft descended well below the vertical profile for the approach. The pilots had the autopilot in open descent (LVL CH on Boeings) with idle t
266 Daysleeper : The envelope protection is just that though isn’t it? As in; it protects against the Pilots being stupid and/or suicidal. I saw Bruce Dickinson (So
267 tdscanuck : No Boeing has a full stall in the delivery acceptance test flights, FBW or non. They take it to stick shaker, which is several knots above full stall
268 Post contains images tom355uk : Only if you know exactly where the stall limit is - not where it 'should' be If the wings are contaminated, then the stall limit is higher than where
269 David L : Fair point but this whole issue came about because NAV20 claimed that "all you have to do" in a non-Airbus is push the throttles "some way" forward t
270 Post contains links SpeedyGonzales : I saw that show on either Discovery or NGC. IIRC, they were descending towards a mountain to simulate an almost CFIT, then pulling hard back on the s
271 Daysleeper : Thats the one. "Flying Heavy Metal" Actually a decent show... Thanks for the clip. Edit: Just watched the clip, and as described above he is decendin
272 tdscanuck : I should amend that a little...no Boeing has a full stall in the delivery acceptance test flights *from the Boeing side*. I'm not sure what would hap
273 comorin : Thank you sir! Back then, much was made of the 320s FBW and cockpit automation as a cause for that and other 320 accidents.
274 Post contains images tom355uk : Then the PNF in the left hand seat must have moved the throttles to TOGA - TOGA mode won't activate without the throttles in the TOGA detent. By the
275 AverageUser : So, the forum contributors think the forum needs a NAV20 in order to stay healthy and productive? A good show will have its jester, as it were? I hop
276 David L : That might be better asked in Site-related or an e-mail to the moderators. Meanwhile, back to "The Last Four Minutes Of Air France Flight 447".
277 Post contains images Daysleeper : Thanks for the info... but way above my level of understanding. I wouldn't base anything on the outside views either, I think some of the video used
278 Pihero : No, they just triggered Alpha Floor protection. And that protection is about making A/THR provide TO/GA thrust regardless of throttle position. And,
279 mandala499 : I saw that episode, and laughed! That was a fun episode to watch! I was told "VS1G was not introduced at Boeing until the 777. Full stalls were part
280 AverageUser : This way I think my point would be read, I have naturally my own hidden agenda here, which is the more or less random application of allowing critiqu
281 David L : Fair enough - Baroque has already challenged the said member to do so. However, this thread should continue the discussion of the last few minutes of
282 Pihero : I suggest you read this thread better instead of wanting to close it as we are discussing into some areas that have never been touched on all then pr
283 tom355uk : I stand corrected - I thought that in Alpha Floor protection the FMA A/THR mode read 'A-FLOOR', not 'MAN TOGA', this mode being cancelled when exitin
284 Pihero : You're quite right. I said earlier When you leave the Alpha floor conditions, the TOGA is still applied and your annunciation becomes TOGA LK (or TOG
285 Post contains images tom355uk : Thanks for clearing that up, I appreciate your level of experience which helps me (and others, i'm sure! If only some would listen.... ) to iron out
286 tdscanuck : Disarming the A/T is an unsafe situation? Some FCOM's need revising then. Customer acceptance flights fly the same profile as the first flight (aka B
287 Post contains images rafaelyyz : I'm not talking about engine spool up. Maybe they applied full thrust long before they got to the trees (assuming they did not intentionally want to
288 Daysleeper : What is the answer? I presume the question was how long it would take the Airbus FBW system to communicate to the FADEC that it wanted TOGA thrust? A
289 Post contains links AutothrustBlue : The engines, and the plane for that matter performed at spec. See reply 65: http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19880626-0 It took 5 se
290 Pihero : Split modes are an absolute no no on many FCOMs I know . So yes, disarming the A/T trying to get some sort of - but not quite - TOGA situation is blo
291 JONukl : IR-1, p.48: "... Only three attempts were made to connect with the Dakar centre ADS-C system and were recorded on 1st June at 1 h 33, 1 h 35 and 2 h 0
292 Kaiarahi : Still 7h39m till sunset in MEL.
293 Post contains images Daysleeper : It seems he has decided not to share his wisdom with us anymore It really bugs me when people disappear because what they stated has been questioned.
294 Post contains images rafaelyyz : Yeah whatever I didn't know when precisely they applied full thrust,or TOGA, or whatever. That's been answered, thanks. End of story. You wanna conti
295 Daysleeper : I’m sorry if I miss-understood you. But you were suggesting that there is a 2 to 3 second delay in the FBW system IN ADDITION to the normal engine
296 rafaelyyz : Yes that's what I initially thought, that there was a delay, in addition to the engines spooling up (in that particular accident, in the context of t
297 Daysleeper : Thanks. It was just with another poster saying he had been told by an Airbus pilot that there is a delay with the the FBW system it's easy to get the
298 rafaelyyz : Speaking of which, I can easily see how someone can get the wrong impression: They were in relatively stable flight, even a little more amount of thr
299 Post contains images mandala499 : Well, we did not know how long after the last ACARS transmission the plane impacted with the water. It could be anything although I think it is unlik
300 Daysleeper : I agree it is a curious accident. But it seems that no part of it was caused by the A320, its design, or its FBW system. It was a simple case of pilo
301 Daysleeper : As I said to another poster who made a mistake with how the throttles operate on the Buses, the problem I see with "disappearing" and not retracting
302 Post contains images AutothrustBlue : There is no question that the 737 and the A320 are safe aircraft. Anyone who thinks otherwise is unfortunately misguided/miseducated/misinformed and s
303 tdscanuck : The FBW system is generally a totally separate thing than the throttle system. In terms of systems architecture, the Airbus and Boeing throttles are
304 Daysleeper : I agree, I did mention I was using very "rough" numbers and the fact the 737 had an extra 20 years in service. My main point was to prove the compara
305 Baroque : I think some are saying that sudden build up of ice so as to affect (adversely no doubt) the aerodynamics of a plane might be not that different from
306 slinky09 : This sudden high altitude icing phenomena is a very worrying one. Wasn't there a case of a Qatar jet flying to Beijing a few years ago that suffered b
307 Pihero : When we started working on this accident, one word came out to describe our ways : sleuthing. This high altitude icing is quite a new idea, but we ha
308 Pihero : Please explain, as we need all the help we can get !
309 Post contains images mandala499 : Flame out? It was discussed, and in our books (dunno about the BEA), it's still a possibility but that requires a lot more to look into. I personally
310 Pihero : As it is my language too and as I am the gullible, easily convinceable type, and as I like the English language beyond the 125 aviation words, Why no
311 Pihero : Twas very new to me. Nice wake-up call, I guess It made me a convert, or should I say YOU made me a convert, overnight. So !? New thread or not ?
312 Post contains images David L : Intriguing and worrying, as you say. Still, treating that suspicion seriously should be some help until it has been investigated. I'm still waiting f
313 Daysleeper : With my admittedly very limited experience I have always maintained that weather is the most likely cause of this accident. Although I know it’s per
314 tom355uk : Would I be right in saying that there is a link in this sentence to Pugachev's Cobra you mentioned earlier? Obviously at increased pitch attitudes an
315 Kaiarahi : There is a New Jersey case stating you can sue The Devil, but the case was thrown out because the plaintiff couldn't provide proof the writ had been
316 Baroque : I wonder if they took it down near MEL yesterday, because if they did they had a "nice" day for it. The ITCZ seems to have been giving S QLD an unexp
317 Post contains images David L : When the terrorism conspiracists were in full swing, I (and some others) did point out that it would have been quite a coincidence for it to have hap
318 David L : The only downside I can see to a new thread is that it would be trickier to reference previous posts.
319 Baroque : If the thread starter sets out some of the more useful parts of this one, and omits some others (says he looking for neutral words) this could be con
320 David L : Ah, yes... I missed out the word "useful". Fair enough.
321 tom355uk : I know I keep throwing seemingly random things in here guys, but please be assured it is all done with the best of intentions and I am trying to keep
322 David L : Just to clarify, I was thinking more of them having to think about where to begin.
323 David L : I was giving some more thought to the nose up, low forward speed that we'd got as far as discussing and began to wonder if I should be thinking less
324 Post contains images mandala499 : There is a problem if someone is locked solely within the ECAM. Whenever there's anything, the general rule would always be, fly the airplane first a
325 tom355uk : you mean the drag created by the elevators when they return to the neutral position, which effectively derotates the aircraft and brings the nose dow
326 giopan1975 : Chillingly unbelievable......I mean this should be basic instinct (maintaining altitude & lift) for all pilots in any case basic flying informati
327 David L : Sorry, I didn't mean to sound impatient, I was just curious to know whether I need to make further revisions or go back to the drawing board again. T
328 mandala499 : Should be... but we don't know if there was something else more important (or seemingly more important) running in their heads at that very moment. I
329 David L : But that's the whole point of what Mandala499 and Pihero are looking at! Until recently, people have been dismissing the possibility as "highly unlik
330 Post contains images giopan1975 : And June is beginning of winter for that part of the world. I apologise for my generalisations that are due to lack of tech knowledge but what eviden
331 David L : The evidence being discussed by Mandala499 and Pihero in this thread.
332 giopan1975 : Sorry, there is no evidence. Only narrowing down the number of possible scenarios. Which is still an admirable task done by our friends. The responsi
333 David L : You might want to take that up with them rather than me. I feel no reason to doubt them, however.
334 David L : Wait, are you talking about evidence of what brought down AF447? I was talking about their discussion of the possibility of an increase in previously
335 Post contains images mandala499 : The only evidence we have are indications of anemometric problems. Which can be a result of precipitation and/or ice. No more, no less, in terms of ev
336 David L : Thank goodness for that - my brain hurts! I must confess I hadn't thought about the 1g part of the equation before.
337 alwaysontherun : Anyone? I haven´t heard nothing about that one anymore. ### "I am always on the Run"###
338 tom355uk : OK, so for transition B, based on the ACARS and the cascade failures of any systems failed in transition A, is there a list of the failed systems?
339 Baroque : That is the most likely outcome from increased input of moisture - increases in all forms of H2O in the atmosphere, including more severe icing condi
340 casInterest : They crashed around 3 North. Technically almost summer. But either way, they were very close to the current direct spot for sunlight at that time of
341 osteogenesis : I was not aware that I could do that as a thread starter. Could you point me to the documentation that explains this? Thx
342 Post contains images David L : I think in that post, "thread starter" refers to whoever starts the new thread, not the one who started this thread. Don't panic.
343 Baroque : As David perhaps implies, you can do anything as long as the documentation does not say you cannot. What I hoped was someone would go through and col
344 Post contains links casInterest : Maybe not even supercooled water. There are other dangers. I found an interesting article about a Capital Cargo International Airlines (aircraft regi
345 Pihero : Yes, those have been quite well documented and hail is linked to a thunderstorm. The phenomenon is well known. if not well avoided. Icing around FL 3
346 Post contains images Pihero : Thanks, mate !
347 slinky09 : Climate change is appearing to have multiple effects. But first, and I know many of you know this - we need to think about zones in the atmosphere an
348 Post contains images mandala499 : The thing is, where I am, it's ISA+10 to +15 up there.... particularly in the monsoon... We get -35C SAT often pretty often at FL350... when that hap
349 Zeke : I see a reason for removing the 737-100/200 due to the change of engine to the CFM-56. However I do not agree with removing the 737-300/400/500 serie
350 Post contains images tom355uk : I'm not drawing the conclusion that this is what DID happen , i'm merely trying to consider what the crew may have THOUGHT had happened, based on the
351 Post contains links and images mandala499 : With no one willing to open their mouths... I guess I have to take a guess myself... When we look at: View Large View MediumPhoto © Martin Eadie One
352 giopan1975 : A bit confused here....... Confused again!
353 Post contains images mandala499 : Sorry if it is confusing, I did ask someone, who refused to say whether it was something to do with AF447 or not, and only hinted at icing, which is
354 Post contains links readytotaxi : Third attempt to locate wreckage to begin this month. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article7060964.ece We will wait and see.
355 AVLNative : When we have evidence that this has begun, it will be a good reason to start a new thread!
356 Post contains links SA7700 : Kindly continue your discussion on this topic in the following thread: The Last Four Minutes Of Air France Flight 447 # 2 Any posts made after the thr
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