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PAN Am 707-120 Flights  
User currently offlineLuisinho From Portugal, joined Nov 2000, 229 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4112 times:

Hi folcks  

I was searching on airline timetables for PAN AM flights in 1959, for the time the first 707's started to be used.

But unfortunately there was no timetable for this period, only later on when the 707-320 were introduced.

BOAC introduced the Comet 4 a few weeks before, but the Comet 4 could not make London - New York without a fuel stop in Gander, but New York - London could be done Nonstop.

The first 707 flight from Pan Am, was a flight to Paris, departed Idlewild (JFK) at 13:00, stoped in Gander and Shannon before landing in Paris.

If the 707 could make pound crossing nonstop... why stopping in Gander and Shannon.

Another thing is... How Pan Am operated the 707-120 before the arriving of the 320 series?

They operated the aircraft NONSTOP on the Atlantic on the shortest routes? (london or Paris to NY) if not... did they refueled in Gander?

In Flight Simulator, with the HJG 707-120, the 707 at FL330 or 340 with 85% N1, Mach 0.75-0.78 burns 2100 lb/hr per engine. With this fuel flow, and a 420 KTAS is perfectly possible to make Paris or London to NY NONSTOP.

How the aircracft performed in the real world?


Thanks in advance...

Luis  

7 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6705 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 3930 times:

Esso Air World had an article about that first year of PA jets-- as I recall 11% of the 707-121 LHR-IDL flights were completed nonstop, and 0% of the Paris-IDL. The eastbound percentages were naturally higher, but well below 100%.

User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6705 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 3824 times:

The article was Nov-Dec 1961. It says for the four-month period May thru August 1959, percentages were

IDL-LHR 73/27/0

i.e. on IDL-LHR 73% of the flights were nonstop, 27% were one-stop, none were 2-stop.

IDL-LBG 35-64-1

BOS-LBG 87-13-0

LHR-IDL 11-88-1

LBG-IDL 0-78-22

LBG-BOS 0-98-2

Schedules as of 5/59:

BOAC lv LHR 1200 arr IDL 1650 daily

lv IDL 2100 arr 0915

PA lv LHR 1100 arr IDL 1505 daily

lv LHR 0130 arr IDL 0535 daily

lv LBG 1800 arr IDL 2300 daily?

lv IDL 1000 arr LHR 2155

lv IDL 2000 arr LHR 0755

lv IDL 1900 arr LBG 0815

The airport survey in Flight in 12/59 says LBG's runway was 8743 ft; it may have been shorter than that earlier in the year.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3525 times:

Quoting Luisinho (Thread starter):
They operated the aircraft NONSTOP on the Atlantic on the shortest routes? (london or Paris to NY) if not... did they refueled in Gander?

Many PA 707-120 flights stopped in Gander in both directions, but more westbound than eastbound due to the winds. The 707-120 was very marginal for even the shortest transatlantic routes from NYC to London or Paris. They were designed mainly for U.S. transcontinental routes like JFK-LAX/SFO, which is why only 56 707-120s were built and only for U.S. customers. Pan Am's 6 initial 707-120s were only used to Europe atopgaps while waiting for the long range 707-320 a year or so later. The -120s were then mainly used on Caribbean and shorter Latin America routes where range wasn't a problem. PA later acquired 2 more 707-120s that were built for Cubana but couldn't be delivered due to the trade embargo and were originally leased to Western Airlines for 2 years.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3500 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
They were designed mainly for U.S. transcontinental routes like JFK-LAX/SFO, which is why only 56 707-120s were built and only for U.S. customers

QF, who had 13 707-120, was a US customer?!! Granted they were the short bodied version, but they were still 120s. They were used SYD-NAN-HNL-SFO on the Pacific and to LHR via 5 to 7 stops in Australia, Asia & Europe.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24061 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3415 times:

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 4):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
They were designed mainly for U.S. transcontinental routes like JFK-LAX/SFO, which is why only 56 707-120s were built and only for U.S. customers

QF, who had 13 707-120, was a US customer?!! Granted they were the short bodied version, but they were still 120s. They were used SYD-NAN-HNL-SFO on the Pacific and to LHR via 5 to 7 stops in Australia, Asia & Europe.

I wasn't counting those as Boeing considers the QF 707-138s separately in their orders/deliveries data. While based on the -120, the 10-foot shorter fuselage was to improve range for QF routes. My comments were limited to the standard -120.


User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5551 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3325 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
My comments were limited to the standard -120.

Fair enough, but you didn't say that!  

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineluisinho From Portugal, joined Nov 2000, 229 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3104 times:

hii folcks  

Thank you for your kind replyes...

So... in this case, i belive the Comet 4 was a bit better suited for Transatlantic then 707-120, since the comet 4 could do with no problems at all and with a good fuel reserve New York to London Nonstop.

It could also almost make London-New York Nonstop, the margin was short, but because of that, the comets needed to land in Gander. The comet 4 had a higher Power to weight ratio then 707-120 and was better in climb performance...

The comet only lacked of range... and payload. If a little more range and payload it could sustained a little more on transatlantic routes.

Just a curiosity... when the comets were transformed in NIMRODS, they needed to make some changes in the aircraft, but the blueprints were gone for long. So the have to measure the wingbox of several aircraft and they concluded that none had the same measurements...

Interesting... in england they built aircraft like handycraft... piece by piece... LOL...

Cheers  

Luis


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