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Apparent Unsafe Landing In SYD, EK A380  
User currently offlinemusapapaya From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 36704 times:

Dear all

I was browsing the net for some landing videos just now and came across this one, which seemed very wrong to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOmGd4qpsyk&NR=1

The touchdown of the landing was right at the thershold of the runway, surely, the pilot should have noticed that, had this plane landed a few seconds before, it would have been on the grass, and it could end up in a disaster. The pilots clearly did not follow the necessary correct procedures.

I was told by pilots that a good landing means you land at the correct speed, at the correct attitude and at the correct place of the runway (the piano key), but to me, at this instance, something was wrong up in the cockpit or this plane should have been gone around (if the Pilot Non Flying has been monitoring the landing close enough) - surely, the PAPI would have been all red (not the 2 white 2 red as expected)

Whats your thoughts ladies and gentlemen on this?

Regards
musapapaya


Lufthansa Group of Airlines
76 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBalZ18 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 36579 times:

I'm guessing he was trying to catch the first wire. (Sorry for the bad navy "humor"). It was a pretty darn hard hit and it did look pretty short but I've always been taught that the definition of a good landing is one that you can walk away from. I am not familiar with A380 procedures so I can only speculate but I do think a little more power and more altitude would have made the situations a tad but better. That's just my two cents though...

Z18



First class or no class...
User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 36478 times:

Looking at the vid a few times, I THINK it might be 16R, and if it was, there was a bit of space between grass and runway, but WOW what a landing!!

User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 36409 times:

Perhaps not the optimal landing, but to call it unsafe and asserting there was "something wrong in the cockpit" is a bit of a stretch, imo.

User currently offlineLHR380 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 36347 times:

Quoting flood (Reply 3):

Someone must have misjudged somewhere to land Before the Keys though. Have never seen a plane do that before


User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5722 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 36337 times:

Lay off the coffee a bit, will ya?

If he touched on the threshold, it would seem to indicate that he landed on the runway. Any number of things MIGHT have happened, but they didn't. Perhaps he had conditions that warranted he make available to himself as much runway as possible, for example, and MEL'd brake or two.
Keep in mind the 380 is a fairly large aircraft.
My preference is to stick it onto the ground as early as possible, rather than waste a thousand feet (something I've watched as a passenger, with a corresponding increase in discomfort and distance passed under my window) trying for a greaser.


User currently offlineKent350787 From Australia, joined May 2008, 960 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 36038 times:

Yes, a big thump when hitting 16R, but, from what I could make out, the aircraft has just passed the keys when it hits the runway. Where's the problem? And, on 16R, a long rollout means a turn and a long backtrack to T1, something this landing is trying to avoid.

Kent


User currently offlineBlatantEcho From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1903 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 36014 times:

everyone is an Internet detective these days!

Only in this age could a night time video, shot by SLF while watching the tailcam video, then posted on youtube and speculated on a.net.....

It's a weird level of vouyerism with everything being taped these days.....



They're not handing trophies out today
User currently offlineflyorski From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 987 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 35945 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
Keep in mind the 380 is a fairly large aircraft.

Or an extremely large aircraft  

No need to jump to conclusions.. it looks fine to me.



"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
User currently offlineeaa3 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1000 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 35839 times:

Are hard landings perhaps more common on A380´s than on other aircraft. It might be taking a while for pilots to get a feel for where the wheels are and therefore can´t flare properly.

User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3548 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 35814 times:

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Are you a qualified ATP? What qualifies you to critique this landing? Are you type rated in the 380?


PHX based
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 35774 times:
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May I suggest that there was probably a delay on the video so when the plane actually touched down in real life the video was from a few secs earlier.

Fred


User currently offlineAF2323 From France, joined Aug 2007, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 35612 times:

Quoting musapapaya (Thread starter):
had this plane landed a few seconds before, it would have been on the grass

Very true. That's why the pilot kept the plane in the air for a few more seconds   


User currently offlinejetfuel From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 2204 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 35555 times:

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 11):
May I suggest that there was probably a delay on the video so when the plane actually touched down in real life the video was from a few secs earlier.

Fred

That makes no sense. THINK about it. The plane hit the runway well before the piano keys. Any examiner would have probably failed a pilot on that landing and ordered more training. The approach and touch down point left very minimal room for a safety margin



Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
User currently offlineAirvan00 From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 748 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 35309 times:

The runway was definitely 16R. You can see that the aircraft was on the T-VASIS all the way to touch down. Therefore it touched down at the correct point. The apparent hard landing was probably just the camera shuddering in its mounting. In other words NO DRAMA.

User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3606 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 35259 times:

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 13):
That makes no sense. THINK about it.

It actually makes perfect sense. All CCTV systems that I've ever seen have about a quarter to a half second delay. I don't see the spoilers go up in the video until they're very close to the piano keys. So they probably touched down a bit early, but not as early as the video makes it appear.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5564 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 35205 times:

First off, everyone needs to realize that FBW planes are known for their harder landings compared to non-FBW planes.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 11):
May I suggest that there was probably a delay on the video so when the plane actually touched down in real life the video was from a few secs earlier.

Just watched the video again, and you can see the spoilers deploy on the monitor just shy of 4 seconds after the plane hits, so there's definitely a delay. I would wager the plane actually landed about 500 feet past the threshold. A tad shy of the aiming point, but completely safe.

Quoting musapapaya (Thread starter):

Whats your thoughts ladies and gentlemen on this?

You're not gonna like mine:

Quoting musapapaya (Thread starter):
I was told by pilots

Which means you are not a pilot at all, much less one type rated in the A380 nor any type of Airbus, so immediately your analysis is put into question.

Quoting musapapaya (Thread starter):
something was wrong up in the cockpit or this plane should have been gone around (if the Pilot Non Flying has been monitoring the landing close enough)

I'd like to know what you think the PNF is doing? A crossword, perhaps?

Quoting musapapaya (Thread starter):
surely, the PAPI would have been all red (not the 2 white 2 red as expected)

Well, from the perspective of the the tail, they stayed 4 white the whole time. Understanding that even though the tail is higher than the cockpit, there is no way they would've been all red from the perspective of the pilot.

So, in short, your whole post is a load of bunk. You didn't take the time to analyze any of the video for delays, you're making assumptions about a field in which you have zero experience, and then accusing not one, but two presumably senior pilots of dozing off at the sidestick.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2745 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 34986 times:

Obviously I'm not a pilot,

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
First off, everyone needs to realize that FBW planes are known for their harder landings compared to non-FBW planes.

Uh? Really? Like the one in the Hudson?



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 34934 times:
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Quoting jetfuel (Reply 13):

Yeah but you only know where the touchdown point is because of where the shaking of the video happens, the video on the seatback will have a slight delay and so will look like it is less of the way down the runway.

Fred


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 34890 times:

Good to see the armchair pilots are at it again showing their vast expertise and knowledge  
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 16):
First off, everyone needs to realize that FBW planes are known for their harder landings compared to non-FBW planes

       

Now I've heard it all...


User currently offlineAF2323 From France, joined Aug 2007, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 34877 times:

Quoting jetfuel (Reply 13):
The plane hit the runway well before the piano keys

You can't say that. At the moment the plane touches down, we don't see the screen. But the moment before, we see that the plane is still in the air, and is passing the lights that are materializing the beginning of the runway/piano keys.


User currently offlineBeau222 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 117 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 34215 times:

I was more interested in the seeing the ACL pulse four times the pause then repeat, always thought it was steady pulse.

User currently offline2h4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 33503 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
My preference is to stick it onto the ground as early as possible, rather than waste a thousand feet

Bad idea in a 121 checkride.



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlinepetera380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 346 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 33510 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Any landing you can walk away from is a safe landing!   

User currently offlinecaspian27 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 381 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 33457 times:

I never understand why these "unsafe landing" threads are posted. Was there any bent metal? Was there any tracks in the grass?

A firm landing is not an "unsafe landing." Landing on the "piano keys" is not an unsafe landing, it's part of the runway. They probably planned on touching down earlyl possibly to maximize the amount of runway available for roll-out.

Bottom line: unless you're in the flight deck with the pilots AND have a pilot's license, you shouldn't be second-guessing.

I should take my video camera into an office and film some "unsafe stapling," or "unsafe typing" or something and then post a thread on it...  



Meanwhile, somewhere 35,000 ft above your head...
25 Flaps : A firm but otherwise ok touchdown. I think the camera perspective high above and far aft of the main gear enhances the impression that the landing was
26 lukeyboy95 : Excuse my ignorance - what is FBW?
27 Post contains images JHCRJ700 : Now in that video it is difficult to tell exactly where the plane touched down due to the fact that the video was taken at night. I also think the tit
28 Maverick623 : If you feel like shedding some insight into why my statement is not true, please do. Don't just mock me for it. How does an unplanned water landing r
29 YYZatcboy : Very neat to see it from the tail cam though.
30 Kennyone : From what I know, the camera on the EK screen is displaying the image with a 4-5 second delay. Also, unless EK procedures say the opposite, this A380
31 Post contains links jetfuel : You need to understand where the correct landing aim spot is meant to be. Look at the location of the TVASI and the piano keys, NOT the lines at the v
32 EK413 : Appeared to be a normal landing... Aircraft executed a rapid exit from the 16R and passenger's de-boarded the plane... Appears to be another normal l
33 PanAm788 : Fly-by-wire. It makes total sense. The youtube video makes the landing seem earlier because the plane is seen still in the air and just over the runw
34 Fly2HMO : Give a source. For one. Additionally, not once in any of my 5 years worth of airline systems class, LOFT, talking to many FBW drivers etc etc have I
35 pilotpip : The one I fly is no harder or easier to land than the 15 or so conventionally controlled aircraft I've flown.
36 Post contains images sandroZRH : That made my day! The same could be said about you...
37 Flight152 : The touchdown zone is where a landing should take place, not the threshold.
38 727forever : There is a delay in the video system. Watch one of the other EK hard landing videos and you'll see there about a 4 second delay as well. The spoilers
39 Post contains images flood : I may not agree with the OP, but that was really uncalled for
40 Zeke : SYD has PAPI not TVASI I think that may have been a visual landing on the PAPI, correct slope on the PAPI and correct slope on the ILS lands you at d
41 Post contains images Airvan00 : Sorry Zeke, I checked on the aerodrome plates after I typed the message and realised my error. I don't know, you leave the airport for 10 years and t
42 Post contains links Baroque : Not wrong there. As to the delay, this was EK was it not? I understand that they sponsor the cricket. If you watch the Channel Nine video of the cric
43 vikkyvik : Far as I know, the touchdown zone starts at the threshold, and goes on as far as the touchdown zone markings go (typically 3000 feet in the US for ru
44 Mir : If you're going to come out with a hard claim like that (as opposed to "I have heard that...."), the onus is on you to back it up with something. So
45 Post contains links COA735 : Well, after comparing it with this landing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1GkvEaUbsQ&feature=related It looks really short.
46 wjcandee : You can compare another youtube video of an allegedly-hard landing looking out the window at the wing. The spoilers start to deploy upon the crunch of
47 flyer737sw : IMO the A380 did touch down early...Anywhere after the threshold is ok for landing but ideally the glideslope will bring you in on the touchdown marki
48 Post contains images dswilliams64d : Alright, I know some have posted the same, but I can't sit idle, even as a pilot, I can't armchair another pilot for touching down on the keys, there
49 CalibansA333 : Just out of curiosity, are you a qualified examiner? If every pilot was failed instantly for a small mistake like that then I suppose we would have n
50 XFSUgimpLB41X : This is exactly why this website gets made fun of. First off, that's a displaced threshold, so even if they touched down slightly before the threshold
51 Post contains images CalibansA333 : Unless "baggage handler" which is your occupation in your profile is not up to date or a crude way of describing an airline pilot I'm pretty sure you
52 Zeke : The ILS receiver on the A380 would be about 34' above the runway in the landing attitude, with a 3 degree slope that would be about 650' from the gli
53 EGPH : I don't understand how anyone can fail to see the problem here. Yes it is a big aircraft and you need a lot of runway to land safely but if you took a
54 BrouAviation : First a totally different question, but is there something wrong with A-net? In all topics in the message-box, the post of somebody else appears. IN t
55 Post contains links chrisrad : Looking at this touchdown, this compares as rather soft... make sure to turn up your speakers/headphones for this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m
56 Post contains links vegas005 : This is a hard A380 landing.. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xa0..._a380-hard-landing-at-oshkosh_auto In my opinion the EK landing was way short and
57 jetfuel : I think we should also recognise that some A380 pilots are VERY new to the plane. Ever tried to pull of a greaser on your first few landings on a new
58 faro : The landing was undoubtedly short, but it is difficult to say it was unsafe. Perhaps they met with some sudden rearward gust just before the threshold
59 banjo76 : I'm no pilot and no nothing about how to land a plane. Just wanted to bring something to the eyes of the experts: the refelection of the lights on the
60 777STL : The people that don't seem to know what they're talking about seem to be the only ones concerned with this landing. Yep, I flew on the first QF 380 b
61 BeakerLTN : Interestingly, on this approach to BKK, you can make out 1 of the PAPI lights being red from the tail cam, so this flight is lower that that of the o
62 UALWN : Hey, it was you who generalized: So I guess it applies to all landings on any FBW airplane...
63 Post contains images danild : Hi all! I wonder if these "hard landings" are a A380 thing? I flew JFK-DXB-JFK on it last year and although I loved the seats, the service and the on
64 flylonghaul : I am by no means a professional, and I make no assumptions or remarks about the skill or training of pilots flying the A380. It does however seem that
65 faro : Maybe many A380 pilots are still making their way up the learning curve on the smooth landing front? I recall with the introduction of the 741 in the
66 sunbird : unsafe my a** i'v been on this earth for almost 40 years and have flowen most of them, from trans atlantic flights to twin otters and cessna's the mor
67 EGPH : I did experience this about two hours ago on a topic on the Non-aviation section (the thread about would you buy a Toyota?) However the post that cam
68 musapapaya : Dear all Thanks for all the responses, I really appreicate it as it gives me a lot of insight as an aviation enthusiast. I want to emphasise that I am
69 Post contains images Ken777 : And doesn't result in a government inquiry . . .
70 EGPH : After watching the video a few more times and then watching some other passenger videos of A380s landing there may in fact be a 2-3 second delay to th
71 PC12Fan : Agreed. But my only input is - I had no idea that A380's were designed for short field landings. Which in the case of this video, was clearly perform
72 tdscanuck : I don't see how there could not be a delay...that video camera is there primarily to help the crew and can display in the flight deck, which means it
73 Post contains links and images PGNCS : Nothing to see here... So wait...let me get this straight. You had two firm landings, a statistically meaningless number in the census of A-380 landin
74 Zkpilot : wow that was a pretty short landing... remember people the threshold piano keys is the absolute earliest you should be landing (fine in a little cessn
75 indolikaa : How much of a delay between the time the camera snapped the frame and it appeared on the LCD display? And how many different paths and processes did t
76 tdscanuck : Based on my experience with other similar systems, I'd say a delay of 0.5 s is very optimistic...1-2 is probably more likely. Tom.
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