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Why Close JFK Runway Into June  
User currently offlineQantas777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 484 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7385 times:

Why did this project not start in January?? Looks like it's from March to late June?

This should have been started on lower peak months, start it in January.

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6742 posts, RR: 32
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 7380 times:

Quoting Qantas777 (Thread starter):
Why did this project not start in January??

Because New York City weather in January and February is not exactly construction-friendly.


User currently offlineJayDub From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7363 times:

Quoting ScottB (Reply 1):
Because New York City weather in January and February is not exactly construction-friendly.

Bingo. Sure, as far as airline operations are concerned, the down-months would be ideal...but, one must take weather into account when planning a major construction project like this. Little to nothing would be done with the snowstorms NYC has endured this winter. Arguably, it would take longer and could put the project over budget to start in the winter months and be at the mercy of mother nature more often than in the summer.


User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9328 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7334 times:

Also -
concrete costs a lot more to pour in the winter than the summer because of the need to provide temporary heat.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21555 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7005 times:

Quoting JayDub (Reply 2):
but, one must take weather into account when planning a major construction project like this.

   Not only would doing the construction in winter cost more money, remember that it's during the winter that the winds tend to blow strongly from the northwest, which would mandate using the 31s, and thus force the airport into a one-runway configuration more often. During the summer, the winds will be more favorable for using the other runways. Granted, you'll still have the thunderstorm issue, but that's not really affected by which runways you're using.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinesectflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 359 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 6825 times:

Hey, It had to be done and there is no real good time to do it. Just have to suck it up for 4 months.

User currently offlineexFWAOONW From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 6561 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 3):
concrete costs a lot more to pour in the winter than the summer because of the need to provide temporary heat.

Or cover with thermal blankets while it cures and/or put admixtures like calcium chloride into the concrete mix.

If the runway project will use asphalt, most plants shut down during the winter because it costs so much more to get it to temperature in the winter (you want it leaving the paver above 295 degrees) because of heat losss during transport from the plant to the paver. Also, you can't put asphalt down on frozen ground, as it will set before the rollers can compact it.



Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9328 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6341 times:

Quoting stlgph (Reply 3):
concrete costs a lot more to pour in the winter than the summer because of the need to provide temporary heat.

Or cover with thermal blankets while it cures and/or put admixtures like calcium chloride into the concrete mix.

If the runway project will use asphalt, most plants shut down during the winter because it costs so much more to get it to temperature in the winter (you want it leaving the paver above 295 degrees) because of heat losss during transport from the plant to the paver. You can't put asphalt down on frozen ground, as it will set before the rollers can

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 6):
Or cover with thermal blankets while it cures and/or put admixtures like calcium chloride into the concrete mix.

i wouldn't be surprised if they're doing that already.

or just have everyone sit by it and blow. that always works, too.  



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12428 posts, RR: 37
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6224 times:

So, what is the preferred combination when 13R/31L is out of action; will they be using the 04/22s unless the weather is VERY bad indeed?

User currently offlinecf6ppe From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6090 times:

When was this runway last re-done...?? or has it...??

IIRC this runway was extended to its current length in the early 1960's when the lower powered B707/DC8's needed every last inch of runway to get off with their loads in order to make a non-stop trip to European cities...


User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3431 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5821 times:

So far we have had 36 inches of snow this Feb in NYC. With the exception of a few days at the beginning and middle of the month, we have had snow cover the entire time. It's just not conducive.

Another problem as mentioned is the winter winds from the NW. On average, there will be 4 days throughout this project where winds out of the NW will be so strong that they will have to shut the 4-22s and go to a single rwy operation. It will be a delay disaster! You will see the posts on airliners. . . believe me!


User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2881 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 5540 times:

Don't forget that real heavy travel season here in NY starts when schools end for the year...in late June. So, considering the weather we have in the winter not really helping in the early part of the year, and the little lull we have (except spring break and easter/passover), that was the optimal time unless they wanted to do it in the dead season which is Sept until Turkey Day.


"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4929 times:

Quoting sectflyer (Reply 5):
Hey, It had to be done and there is no real good time to do it. Just have to suck it up for 4 months.

Correct. Also to totally close down the runway the job can be complete in about 4 months, ar at least that is the plan.
To try to work around the flight schedules, weather and all the other things that always come up would take a little over 2 yrs to complete IIRC.

The airlines have already taken the runway closure into account by adjusting their flight schedules, mostly by reducing frequencies from what I have read, to help with the delay issues.

Bottom line is to inconvienence pax for 4 months rather than 2 yrs.

MD


User currently offlinejfr From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 227 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4148 times:

In the US, every transport sector does its expansion, upgrade and repair projects in Summer. Fact of life......unfortunate though it may be.

User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4089 times:
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I wonder how they will handle the intersection of the project runway and 4L/22R assuming they will need the latter runway for operations.

User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3624 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3145 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 8):
So, what is the preferred combination when 13R/31L is out of action; will they be using the 04/22s unless the weather is VERY bad indeed?

They will be using all three remaining runways simultaneously when possible. Just as they regularly used three runways before.

I'm sure there will be some effect from this, but the media's acting like the sky is falling and I just don't see how all that much is going to change. Instead of using the 04's and 13L, now they'll be using the 04's and 13R. (I'm not sure if that's actually the preferred combination, I'm just giving an example.) It's probably going to be a little more difficult when they would otherwise be using both 13's or 31's, but the bottom line is they've still got three active runways, and they generally only ever use three active runways anyway.

Quoting jfr (Reply 13):
In the US, every transport sector does its expansion, upgrade and repair projects in Summer. Fact of life......unfortunate though it may be.

Well, in the northeast anyway. In the southwest, they can probably do construction whenever they want.

The funny thing about the northeast to people who don't live here is that by this time of year it can seem like every roadway is completely falling apart. The potholes right now are everywhere, and so deep they will actually damage your car if you drive over one. I wonder if runways typically get potholes too, but I do know that JFK's runways in general always seem to be in really bad shape compared to other airports I fly into. But there's really nothing they can do during the winter except patch.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlinemax999 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1036 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2984 times:

The runway was closed starting today...my flight was held over northern NJ for 30 minutes tonight because of lack of runway capacity for take offs and landings. I believe we landed on 4L.


All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
User currently offlineGothamSpotter From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2474 times:

Quoting cf6ppe (Reply 9):
When was this runway last re-done...

1993.

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 14):
I wonder how they will handle the intersection of the project runway and 4L/22R assuming they will need the latter runway for operations.

When 13R/31L reopens on June 30th, the intersection-end will not yet be finished. Instead they will reopen it with length restrictions on both arrivals and departures while work is performed on that end. 4L/22R will itself be closed for two weeks in September to work on the intersection. While successfully pitched to the media as a 4 month project, in reality it is scheduled to cause disruptions until mid-November.

[Edited 2010-03-02 01:19:02]

User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3431 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1946 times:

"They will be using all three remaining runways simultaneously when possible. Just as they regularly used three runways before.

I'm sure there will be some effect from this, but the media's acting like the sky is falling and I just don't see how all that much is going to change. Instead of using the 04's and 13L, now they'll be using the 04's and 13R. (I'm not sure if that's actually the preferred combination, I'm just giving an example.) It's probably going to be a little more difficult when they would otherwise be using both 13's or 31's, but the bottom line is they've still got three active runways, and they generally only ever use three active runways anyway."

Once the wind goes above 25 kts from the NW you will be forced onto 1 runway . . . 31R. With historical averages, it will happen 4 times.

As a matter of fact, it almost happened yesterday. Wouldn't that have been a nightmare on the first day?

31L at KK- to the end . . . closed through Jul1
Displaced threshold of 31L closed below 4L through the summer.
Intersection with 4L and 4L closed throughout the fall.

31L will be closed through July.
4L will be closed for most of the fall due to intersection construction.

Completetion Nov 2010.

Supposed to reduce delays . . . but I dont really see how.


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