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Why Does DL Cancel The Network When It Flurries?  
User currently offlineQantas777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 484 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 10338 times:

I will try and give their soc the benefit here and assume it's the lack of de icing equipment in Atlanta? So, they just hack saw their network to avoid long lines for one de icing machine?

If that is not the case, then what the hell is going on?

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 10275 times:

I suspect that it's more than flurries as the National Weather Service has put the area under a Winter Storm Warning until midnight, tonight. DL is being proactive in cancelling flights ahead of time. Trust me, they know what they're doing even if you have doubts.


The title of your thread is a little bit sensationalist, don't you think?

[Edited 2010-03-02 09:10:30]


"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 3 hours ago) and read 10228 times:

Airtran has also cancelled approximately 60 flights to and from ATL, to prevent back-up of equipment.

User currently offlineDurangoMac From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 701 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 10010 times:

Quoting Qantas777 (Thread starter):
I will try and give their soc the benefit here and assume it's the lack of de icing equipment in Atlanta?

You hit on the head, it all has to do with the number of planes they can get through deicing in an hour.


User currently offlineJohnJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1656 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 9978 times:

Perhaps a compelling reason for them to keep the Memphis hub after all...

User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 9850 times:

I don't know what the problem is with DL it's one thing to be an hour or two late...that's understandable given the circumstances....but your right every time DL does this....


Our Returning Champion
User currently offlinerbgso From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 587 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 9831 times:

I suspect they'll have some available de icing equipment to ship to ATL when they finish cutting CVG.

User currently offlineCatIII From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 9738 times:

I think too that they are probably better equipped and more willing to thin out the operation in Atlanta since they now have all these other hubs to route connecting traffic to. This really is the first winter season as an integrated airline (and a bad winter to boot), so in the past where they wouldn't have thinned out the operation as much in ATL, this year they seem more willing to.

[Edited 2010-03-02 12:18:48 by srbmod]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25008 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 9661 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The Dallas News has posted this YourTube link, which basically asks the ask question as the OP:

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/a...itler-doesnt-like-all-of-delt.html

Danger, Will Robinson - it is another of the many Hitler spoofs - but it is a funny one.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10351 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 9572 times:

It looks like to me, that most of the cancellations are in the Northeast.

Other airlines also cancel flights when there is very bad weather, especially recently. I heard no one bashing any of those other airlines for doing the same thing.  



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinefx1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 9552 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 14):
It looks like to me, that most of the cancellations are in the Northeast.

Other airlines also cancel flights when there is very bad weather, especially recently. I heard no one bashing any of those other airlines for doing the same thing.

That's because the 'poorly run airline' from ATL just hasn't figured everything out yet..  

FX1816


User currently offlineCatIII From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 9510 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
Danger, Will Robinson - it is another of the many Hitler spoofs - but it is a funny one.

An incredibly funny one. "We are like a non sked with 1300 airplanes."


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24858 posts, RR: 46
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 9486 times:

One thing that needs to be remember with the new Congressional regulations on delays and the large potential fines on airlines, there is a clear incentive now to cancel a flight then potentially operate it and risk incurring long ground delays.

Good or bad, but airlines are much more likely to wholesale cancel flights, then try to slug their way thru these days.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineCatIII From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 9416 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
new Congressional regulations on delays

I believe those were a DOT rulemaking, and not Congressionally mandated. Our DC friends on here would know better.


User currently offlinetvnwz From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2357 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 9395 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 17):
One thing that needs to be remember with the new Congressional regulations on delays and the large potential fines on airlines, there is a clear incentive now to cancel a flight then potentially operate it and risk incurring long ground delays.

$27-K per passanger penalty worth of motivation to cancel flights.


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 9282 times:

Quoting Qantas777 (Thread starter):

You have to remember now airlines get fined if PAX have to sit for a long peroid of time so now the airlines just cut a bunch of flights to save money. Also ATL is a hard (piss poor) airport to di-ice at. A few years ago the had the de-ice fluid end up in the collage park water system so that has slowed things down a good bit. (on top of not having the trucks and such).
And we are getting hit pretty hard (for Atlanta)

[Edited 2010-03-02 12:20:28 by srbmod]


yep.
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 9237 times:

Quoting JohnJ (Reply 4):
Perhaps a compelling reason for them to keep the Memphis hub after all...

It depends. Very often the weather that slams Atlanta has just slammed Memphis 8 to 12 hours prior.

Also people need to take into consideration that Atlanta hasn't received snow/winter weather like this in over twenty years (I'm 23 and can attest that until the last two winters we would get snow at most every other year). The city just flat-out isn't prepared for it.


User currently offlineAviationbuff08 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 346 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 1 hour ago) and read 9238 times:

The problems ATL has when it has winter weather is that the airport operations doesn't have snow removal equipment, unlike the PMNW hubs of DTW, and MSP. Three weeks ago when ATL had 6 inches of snow all the airport operations could do was apply a heated chemical on the runways, taxiways and ramps. Though they are limited as to how much they can put down due to the environmental concerns of the stuff getting into the water sources. If your interested, research the 2002 snow storm that hit ATL, and you will find that communities south of the airport had glycohol in their drinking water, and not in trace amounts.

As a result of the 2002 snow storm DL and the ATL airport had to completely change the deicing plan for the airport, and the result was a severly limited number of aircraft can deice in an hour. I believe now they only have 2 deice pads that are located east of the E concourse. This means that if the wind direction forces a RWY 8/9 operation that aircraft must taxi the entire length of the airport before they can take off, and within the hold over time of the type 4 that was applied.

IIRC, the ATL hub has 2x the number of daily flights than MSP and DTW have, so it makes it an even bigger issue when the deicing operations has to be implemented.

I know someone here can post the number of daily flight for the three DL hubs, with a breakdown on mainline and DCI flights daily.


User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3381 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months ago) and read 9112 times:

Quoting DurangoMac (Reply 3):
You hit on the head, it all has to do with the number of planes they can get through deicing in an hour.

Anyone in the know have an idea on how many trucks ATL has?

Quoting JohnJ (Reply 4):
Perhaps a compelling reason for them to keep the Memphis hub after all...

And MSP... DTW... SLC... JFK...

Quoting rbgso (Reply 7):
I suspect they'll have some available de icing equipment to ship to ATL when they finish cutting CVG.

What they oughta do is reallocate some of the stuff from the outsourced cities. ATS can use their own stuff. Just my .02...


Quoting mayor (Reply 14):
It looks like to me, that most of the cancellations are in the Northeast.

I saw an article that said 500 in ATL and 2000 system wide?

Quoting Aviationbuff08 (Reply 22):
If your interested, research the 2002 snow storm that hit ATL, and you will find that communities south of the airport had glycohol in their drinking water, and not in trace amounts.

Really?! Wow! Is there nowhere else to put a 2nd (or even 3rd pad) w/o having that happen again?

[Edited 2010-03-02 12:21:33 by srbmod]


"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2163 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months ago) and read 9093 times:

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 23):
Really?! Wow! Is there nowhere else to put a 2nd (or even 3rd pad) w/o having that happen again?

Not easily. A major tributary runs right behind, and in some cases I believe underneath the airport. Runoff exacerbates the problem.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4191 posts, RR: 37
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months ago) and read 9087 times:

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 23):
Really?! Wow! Is there nowhere else to put a 2nd (or even 3rd pad) w/o having that happen again?

There is... just the city won't approve it. Behold the corruption and inefficiency that is the city of ATL. So we're stuck with capability for around 25 planes an hour...



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24858 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months ago) and read 9023 times:

Quoting CatIII (Reply 18):
I believe those were a DOT rulemaking, and not Congressionally mandated

Yes the rule making was issued by the DOT, but after 1-year of strong Congressional pushing including public hearings that dragged airline CEOs up to the Hill.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9289 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months ago) and read 8876 times:

Quoting Aviationbuff08 (Reply 22):
I know someone here can post the number of daily flight for the three DL hubs, with a breakdown on mainline and DCI flights daily.

ATL is north of 1000 flights per day.
MSP and DTW are both around 500 per day with DTW being larger.
CVG is around 150, MEM IIRC is around 200-250.
JFK is hard to point out because they a down to like 200 but Delta has the slots to take it past that. (due the pull back because of the runway work)
LGA is about the same size as JFK.
SLC is around 300 IIRC.
LAX is around 90 flights per.



yep.
User currently offlineKingAir200 From United States of America, joined May 2006, 1611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8841 times:



Quoting nwaesc (Reply 18):
Anyone in the know have an idea on how many trucks ATL has?

I found a list awhile ago on the intranet, but you'd have to be at work to see it.

Quoting nwaesc (Reply 18):
What they oughta do is reallocate some of the stuff from the outsourced cities. ATS can use their own stuff. Just my .02...

I never have understood that decision. I'm sure it made for a smoother transition from mainline to contractor, but it'd be nice to get some of that stuff back for mainline use.

[Edited 2010-03-02 13:02:12]


Hey Swifty
User currently offlineCatIII From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3029 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 8805 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 21):
but after 1-year of strong Congressional pushing including public hearings that dragged airline CEOs up to the Hill.

I don't believe the CEO's ever testified. ATA did for sure, but the CEO's to my knowledge ever came up.


25 dairbus : Just to expand on what was posted. Ramps 6 North and 6 South are the only spots used for deicing. Each ramp has spots for 4-6 aircraft at a time depe
26 jetlanta : Thank you for the serious responses to this thread. Hopefully people will read and consider.
27 nwaesc : I assume this :30 minutes per A/C is "all in" (includes the taxi time down to the pad, taxi to runway, etc.)? No reason for deicing itself to take th
28 LHCVG : Perhaps, but then again, MEM is close enough that wx could easily impact it as well. CVG, MSP, DTW, NYC, etc. are all far enough away that they are m
29 Post contains images peanuts : That clip with the angry man (who is that guy anyway?... ) is very funny. Definitely written by someone who knows the industry and also has a little d
30 comairguycvg : Kind of like the Trans Syberian Orchestra doing Marry Had A Little Lamb lol.
31 RiddlePilot215 : I assume this :30 minutes per A/C is "all in" (includes the taxi time down to the pad, taxi to runway, etc.)? No reason for deicing itself to take th
32 SESGDL : For flights, here's the breakdown for scheduled flights today, March 2, 2010. ATL: 510 mainline, 498 regional = 1,008 daily flights MSP: 207 mainline
33 CWAFlyer : [ The fines do not go into effect until April.
34 CV640 : [ The fines do not go into effect until April. Airlines have been pre-emptively cancelling flights long before this legislation came about. Everytime
35 DurangoMac : I know the rule doesn't go into affect until April but I know part of the rule is retro-active to the first of the year. Is the fine going back to th
36 nwaesc : I know what's involved; that's why I asked. :30 minutes a plane seems excessive.
37 BHMDiversion : This is what happens when Passengers cry and try and blame everything on the airlines... You want to fine me (as in the airlines) for keeping people o
38 airguardtn : Why will no one on here just say. DL puts 10 pounds of crap in a 5 pound bag? I know the City of Atlanta and Delta love having the Worlds busiest airp
39 CatIII : Actually the operation hums on a good day. Throw in weather on any operation and it will effect it. But go ahead in a different direction with your b
40 tvnwz : But, there is no doubt, they are implimenting the procedures early to get ready for it. As they should.
41 airguardtn : I know WX can affect any air ops. The point is, when DL has as many hubs and connection oportinities as they could, why does so much have to go throu
42 Post contains images FX1816 : So you aren't home then?? I have never had a problem in ATL although I probably haven't been through there as much as you I still have been there qui
43 airguardtn : Good catch. I meant home on time and I mean at least an hour late. It has gotten worse in ATL within the last 3 years. It used to be my favorite, now
44 CWAFlyer : Part of the legiislation includes keeping records of all communication between the crew and the SOC for two years. I don't know if anyone is currentl
45 CatIII : I see it just the opposite: when DL has as many hubs and connection oportinities as they could, they are much better suited to pull down ATL in bad w
46 airguardtn : Thought you said you had not been there in a couple of years? I was there yesterday and will be back through tomorrow. I'm not guessing. I know! Make
47 CatIII : Show me where I said that:
48 airguardtn : CatIII. My mistake. It was not you. Very sorry.
49 CatIII : No worries. I'll be back through there tomorrow as well. Maybe we'll run into each other.
50 Post contains links Viscount724 : It looks like DL's CEO wasn't happy about the ATL cancellations!. If you don't speak German, turn the sound up for best effect. If you do speak German
51 airguardtn : Im on the 4:10 from SAT to ATL. Then on to TYS.
52 apodino : hahahahaha. One of the best Hitler spoofs yet. The sad thing about these numbers is that it shows that there are now more Delta Connection flights op
53 ah414211 : Exactly. Passengers wanted their "bill of rights" well, here it is. The airlines can't risk passengers calling the police to report that they're bein
54 nwaesc : Demanding to have it both ways is a birthright of the American flying public. Dealing with the consequences is not.
55 RiddlePilot215 : Well if you're from up North, yes. lol. But down in Atlanta which isn't considered to be a place that has significant winter ops... Basically what I'
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