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Ten Percent Of 747-400 In Storage  
User currently offlineb741 From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 716 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17566 times:

I just read a recent article in AW&ST saying that 64 747-400s are in storage. There were 16 stored last year and now the highest since 2004 when 4% were stored. Seems the graveyards keep filling up.


Being Bilingual, I Speak English And Aviation
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMacsog6 From Singapore, joined Jan 2010, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17528 times:
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Going into storage is not the same as going to the graveyard. As long as thr aircraft is properly stored, it can be put back into service at a later time. A graveyard is, at least to me, where parts are stripped, the storage is not as controlled, and there is little to no intention to return the aircraft to duty.

Some places admittedly do both, Davis Monthan is an example.



Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17385 times:

Quoting Macsog6 (Reply 1):
Some places admittedly do both, Davis Monthan is an example.

Yes, but as history has shown, no aircraft at AMARC/AMARG is truly dead until it meets the guillotine.  



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13260 posts, RR: 100
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 17263 times:
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Quoting b741 (Thread starter):
I just read a recent article in AW&ST saying that 64 747-400s are in storage.

In this economy/oil environment I'm surprised it is that few.    Seriously. That is a good sign for the 744 when the economy rebounds.

Note: I expect the long term fate of most 744's is as freighters. However, if RASM improves, I expect the 744's to be pulled back into service until 77W's, 787's, A350's, A380's, or A330's are delivered for long term utilization.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineb741 From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 716 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 16947 times:

IIRC, UAL has about 30% of that stored total. That is, if there were no buyers for the surplus a/c.


Being Bilingual, I Speak English And Aviation
User currently offlinen471wn From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1561 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 16784 times:
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Only one 747-400 has been scrapped and that was a high time Air New Zealand a/c.

User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2730 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 16770 times:

Quoting b741 (Reply 4):
IIRC, UAL has about 30% of that stored total. That is, if there were no buyers for the surplus a/c.

I know that from the website below, UAL still owns the 6 recently retired 744s:

187, 193, 194, 195, 196 & 198

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_Inquiry.aspx

That is less than 10%. I am sure there are others in storage that they did own or lease at one time, but do they own any other 744s?


User currently offlinedalca From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 16747 times:

Is there a list somewhere or can we compile one here?


Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight KUL-FRA-AMS Flown in A319,A
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8580 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 16656 times:
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I think that another thing to bear in mind is that there was a large production "bulge"in the early days when the -400 was new - there must be a correspondingly large number of frames that are already in , or close to , the 'plus or minus 20 year old' bracket , so it is not too surprising that a relatively large proportion of the fleet are either semi-retired or permanently retired . ( this makes me feel    as I can remember when the -400 was the 'latest and greatest'! ) .

BTW Does anyone have exact figures on how many -400s were assembled in the period 1988-1991 inclusive , I am pretty sure that it is a disproportionate number in comparison to the total built over the entire production life of the model but would be curious to know for sure ?



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineGemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5714 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 16536 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 8):
I think that another thing to bear in mind is that

Some B744 are simply being replaced. QF, for example have received 6 A380 leading to 6 B744s heading to the desert. Now true if the economy was in better shape they might have found buyers by now, but hey would still have been stored for a while.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1605 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 16311 times:

Would G4 for instance ever pick up 747s? I realize that would be a big leap both operationally and cost-wise, but could they do a European-style ~500 pax "Mickey Mouse Shuttle"? IF they did go this route, what I'm thinking of here is that their angle would be rock-bottom pricing in say NYC.

User currently offlinetharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1865 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 16251 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 3):
Note: I expect the long term fate of most 744's is as freighters.

I hope Boeing has expected this, when surveying the market for new frames of 748F?


User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 16213 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 8):
BTW Does anyone have exact figures on how many -400s were assembled in the period 1988-1991 inclusive , I am pretty sure that it is a disproportionate number in comparison to the total built over the entire production life of the model but would be curious to know for sure ?

I think there might actually be quite a large proportion of the total production, given how many operators got their first planes from 1989-1991, the only real exceptions being Virgin (1994), Air India and Air China (both in 1993 I think) and Saudi Arabian (1997).


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8580 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 16212 times:
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Quoting tharanga (Reply 11):
I hope Boeing has expected this, when surveying the market for new frames of 748F?

I am sure that they have , but just as the presence of large numbers of -200s in the secondhand market years ago did not prevent Boeing selling around 160 purpose built -400F and -400ERF , so I suspect the availability of large numbers of elderly -400s will not prevent sales of -8Fs ( in fact with 76 already ordered before EIS the -8F is already at nearly 50% of the total orders for the -400F over its entire lifetime ) .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3704 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 16135 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 10):
Would G4 for instance ever pick up 747s? I realize that would be a big leap both operationally and cost-wise, but could they do a European-style ~500 pax "Mickey Mouse Shuttle"? IF they did go this route, what I'm thinking of here is that their angle would be rock-bottom pricing in say NYC.

Doubtful. G4 doesn't have the infrastructure as a business to support such aircraft, and it's much easier to fill an MD80 than it is a 744. And on the same token, an MD80 flying around half empty is much less wasteful than a 744 flying around half empty. G4 seems to have found a nice niche flying ancient MD80s to vacation destinations - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.



PHX based
User currently offlineN328KF From United States of America, joined May 2004, 6491 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16097 times:

1989: 41
1990: 62
1991: 62
1992: 61
1993: 56
1994: 40
1995: 25
1996: 26
1997: 39
1998: 53
1999: 47
2000: 25
2001: 31
2002: 27
2003: 19
2004: 15
2005: 13
2006: 14
2007: 16
2008: 14
2009: 8

(From BCA order site.)



When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' T.Roosevelt
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8580 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 16020 times:
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Thanks Joe ,    ... so in short , by the end of this year , more than 100 744s will be in their twenties , not too surprising that a number are either temporarily or permanently retired .

Quoting N328KF (Reply 15):
1989: 41
1990: 62




Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 564 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 15984 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 10):
Would G4 for instance ever pick up 747s? I realize that would be a big leap both operationally and cost-wise, but could they do a European-style ~500 pax "Mickey Mouse Shuttle"? IF they did go this route, what I'm thinking of here is that their angle would be rock-bottom pricing in say NYC.

Sounds like Tower Air and that didn't go that well.


User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 15960 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 16):
Thanks Joe , ... so in short , by the end of this year , more than 100 744s will be in their twenties , not too surprising that a number are either temporarily or permanently retired .

Yeah 20 and 21, the age thing is really a moot point as there are 757's and 767's that are older than that and still flying. Heck what about the NW/DL DC-9's of the past few years. What about the NW A320's and now the AF A320's that are or have been broken up the past few years and the A320 came out around the same time. What exactly is your point then about 744 age?

FX1816


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8580 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 15906 times:
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Quoting FX1816 (Reply 18):
Yeah 20 and 21, the age thing is really a moot point as there are 757's and 767's that are older than that and still flying. Heck what about the NW/DL DC-9's of the past few years. What about the NW A320's and now the AF A320's that are or have been broken up the past few years and the A320 came out around the same time. What exactly is your point then about 744 age?

Please dont get me wrong , I am not one of those "old aircraft are dangerous" nuts , but fuel economy is a lot more of a factor in operating costs for longhaul than for the shorthaul aircraft which you gave as examples - while well maintained aircraft can carry on more of less for ever they may not remain the best choice economically for longhaul . I personally would quite happily fly on a well maintained 40 year old aircraft ... but I am not sure that a longhaul airline can make money doing so .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineflynorth From Sweden, joined Mar 2008, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 15795 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 19):
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 18):
Yeah 20 and 21, the age thing is really a moot point as there are 757's and 767's that are older than that and still flying. Heck what about the NW/DL DC-9's of the past few years. What about the NW A320's and now the AF A320's that are or have been broken up the past few years and the A320 came out around the same time. What exactly is your point then about 744 age?

Please dont get me wrong , I am not one of those "old aircraft are dangerous" nuts , but fuel economy is a lot more of a factor in operating costs for longhaul than for the shorthaul aircraft which you gave as examples - while well maintained aircraft can carry on more of less for ever they may not remain the best choice economically for longhaul . I personally would quite happily fly on a well maintained 40 year old aircraft ... but I am not sure that a longhaul airline can make money doing so .

  

That an airplane is safe to fly and that some plane models fly for a long time with certain airlines, doesn't mean that the economic lifetime of a plane model is indefinite. I'm not claiming that I know what the economic lifetime of the average 744 is but around 20 years sounds reasonable. After that increased operating costs and competition from never and more efficient plane models will put an end to the 744 era. That era has probably started to end (even if it will take years before it is over), driven by 777, A380 and 748 replacement and heavy maintenance. And probably speeded up by the economic turndown.


Cheers,
flynorth


User currently offlineAirNovaBAe146 From Canada, joined Jun 2008, 366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 15647 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 10):
Would G4 for instance ever pick up 747s? I realize that would be a big leap both operationally and cost-wise, but could they do a European-style ~500 pax "Mickey Mouse Shuttle"? IF they did go this route, what I'm thinking of here is that their angle would be rock-bottom pricing in say NYC.

How come we haven't seen many B744s migrate to third world airlines?

I've seen DC-10s, L1011s, and even B762s migrate there, now its the 744's turn.
You'd think it would have a niche, providing links to the business centers of the world. LHR, CDG, DXB, not to mention cargo ought to be able to fill a 744 on a regular basis from the third world to the first world.


User currently offlineb741 From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 716 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 15491 times:

For monthy lists of aircraft going into storage, try Aviation Letter or World Airline Fleets News. I find AL more comprehensive, with back issues available from 1992 onwards.


Being Bilingual, I Speak English And Aviation
User currently offlinetrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3240 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 15142 times:

Quoting FX1816 (Reply 18):
What about the NW A320's and now the AF A320's that are or have been broken up the past few years and the A320 came out around the same time. What exactly is your point then about 744 age?

Remember that the aging of aircraft is mostly related to cycles rather than chronological age. As a result, short-haul planes like A320s accumulate cycles far more quickly than do long-haul jets and thus tend to be retired earlier. That said, indeed 20 years is the expected economic lifespan of a 747.

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Reply 21):
How come we haven't seen many B744s migrate to third world airlines?

I think one should say "second or third tier" airlines rather than Third World, as third tier airlines may be found anywhere and indeed many airlines from Developing Nations have completely up-to-date fleets. That aside, 747-400s are still very valuable and are only now being shed by original owners so residual values are still quite high.

TrinToCan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
User currently offlinetheredbaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 2257 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 12978 times:

Maybe those 744 are approaching C and D checks and in the current economy is non productive to invest a lot of money in manteniance, store them, use newer aircraft, and / or wait ...

regards TRB



The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
25 PSU.DTW.SCE : Correct, cycles is more important than age. The 744's may be older, but generally have significantly less cycles due to the longer stage lengths of f
26 Post contains images UnitedFA07 : Since I'm merely only a FA, what are the A, B,C, and D checks exactly? I still say there should be an Index on here explaining such things.
27 Gemuser : In simple terms overhaul periods for aircraft. The A check is the smallest and occurs most frequently, the the B the next largest and occurs after so
28 FlySSC : AF has put in storage quite a few of its B744 : F-GEXB : Stored at XCR F-GISA : Stored at CDG F-GISB : Stored at ORY F-GISE : Stored at ORY F-GISF :
29 faro : What is the average storage life of civil aircraft at AMARC/AMARG? It would seem to me that the sooner you can scrap your aircraft, the sooner you ca
30 747classic : If the market is recovering, some passenger 744 aircraft may be converted to freighters. The 744combi's are most likely to be converted because of the
31 Post contains images N328KF : I have placed the sales of all 747 variants into a chart. For the purposes of our discussion, I reduced all sub-variants (including military types) t
32 lalib : [i]How come we haven't seen many B744s migrate to third world airlines? I've seen DC-10s, L1011s, and even B762s migrate there, now its the 744's turn
33 manfredj : Boeing has made the right decision here with the -800. Eventually the 2/3/-400 freighters will get on in age and Boeing will have the MONOPOLY on VLA
34 N328KF : By the way, what are the reasons for the major peaks in overall 747 deliveries in my chart? Number them 1 through 4. #1 is obviously for all of the st
35 readytotaxi : So, just how quickly are we talking about from dessert to terminal ramp? ,pls
36 Viscount724 : Deregulation in the US had almost no impact outside the US. It only affected domestic traffic within the US. Anything involving travel between the US
37 PSU.DTW.SCE : Many of the peaks and valleys can be explained by the world economy. The first valley coincides with the mid-70's oil crisis, which rendered a lot of
38 IFIXCF6 : It really depends on many different things, i.e. the level of storage carried out as long term, short term, or carrier specific. In general, the long
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