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Why Do Mainlines Only Have Boeing Or Airbus?  
User currently offlinec5load From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8362 times:

I know the title is a little incomplete, but couldn't fit what I wanted to talk about in the title bar. I had always wondered why the legacies have never picked up any CRJ, ERJ, Saab, Q400 type airplanes, regionals. Is there some sort of rule that says mainline can only have one of the two main manufacturers? That question goes vice-versa as well, who says Mesaba, Pinnacle, Comair, etc. can't operate boeings or airbuses?


"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6729 posts, RR: 24
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8346 times:

Quoting c5load (Thread starter):
Is there some sort of rule that says mainline can only have one of the two main manufacturers?

Mainline carriers usually have a cost structure that is too high to operate these aircraft.

Quoting c5load (Thread starter):
That question goes vice-versa as well, who says Mesaba, Pinnacle, Comair, etc. can't operate boeings or airbuses?

Pilot scope clauses at the mainline carriers prevent this. They don't want the regionals used against them.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8339 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 1):
Pilot scope clauses at the mainline carriers prevent this.

   That is the one and only reason why.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinenws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 924 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8226 times:

US had some E190s for awhile. I know the plan is to sell them all to Republic, not sure if they have all left the fleet or not though.

Generally it is more cost effective to keep whatever flying scope clauses and customers will allow at the regionals.


User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1404 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8168 times:

Cost plus a dash of that's the way everyone does it.

Even Frontier did this with Lynx.

In the old days the small commuters ran under different rules than the majors (part 135 vs part 121) - so the need for different certificates.

Also small carriers seem to be more efficient and nimble, rather than the large bureaucracy of the majors. When you have only 20 to 50 seats every penny and minute makes a different. Part of that is due to strong unions at majors.

At most majors seniority goes copilot A320, copilot 767, copilot 777, copilot 747, captain A320, captain 767, etc.

So if you thow CR7's in the mix, then you get a copilot making $32K and a captain making $123K at the major. At the regional you get a copilot making $22K and a captain making $57K. So thats $76K per set of crew per year that a major has to pay.


User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1524 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8120 times:

In europe SK has operated the Q400 and LOT operates the ERJ170 and 190

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlineaquariusHKG From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2010, 94 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8065 times:

This is mainly to do with scope clauses, else nothing prevents Mainline from operating other aircraft

Air Canada operates Embraer E175/E190 and have operated CRJ100 in the past (not sure if they're still online or have gone to Jazz)

And for regional operating Boeing and Airbus, most of the time the plane is just too big for the job they wanted to do, and too expensive for them to operate, also scope clauses prevents it too


User currently offlinepilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3152 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8035 times:

Scope usually dictates based on seats. American and Continental have the most restrictive scope stating that any turbojet over 50 seats must be flown at a mainline level (sans the 25 CRJ-700s at Eagle) .

This is why RAH has three certificates. Chautauqua has all the jets with 50 and fewer seats (to keep AA and CO happy), S5 is limited to 76 seats and weight by Delta, and Republic 86 seats in single class.

Personally, I'd much rather have a seniority number at a legacy but somebody long before me decided they were too good to fly these jets. What we've seen over the past 10 years is senior widebody guys selling the guys at the bottom of their list (737, A320 drivers) by relaxing scope for better pay at their level. This is why we're now flying jets that 20 years ago would have been flown at the major level (like the F-28 and F-100 were) for much lower rates because we can't negotiation fast enough to keep pace with the changes in the industry.



DMI
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15828 posts, RR: 27
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7984 times:

Quoting aquariusHKG (Reply 6):
also scope clauses prevents it too

This is actually the main reason. Some airline would love to add 120 seaters (and maybe even bigger) to regionals.

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 7):
American and Continental have the most restrictive scope stating that any turbojet over 50 seats must be flown at a mainline level (sans the 25 CRJ-700s at Eagle) .

It may have changed, but I thought that AA's was no jets over 70 seats and only 78 RJs with more than 45 seats. I think that CO is that there is nothing over 50 seats allowed for CO Ex.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25978 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7781 times:

Quoting aquariusHKG (Reply 6):
Air Canada operates Embraer E175/E190 and have operated CRJ100 in the past (not sure if they're still online or have gone to Jazz)

All CRJs (100/200/705) are now Jazz. The Embraers are AC mainline.


User currently offlinepilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3152 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7738 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):

It may have changed, but I thought that AA's was no jets over 70 seats and only 78 RJs with more than 45 seats. I think that CO is that there is nothing over 50 seats allowed for CO Ex.

You may be right, I can't keep it all straight. I wish they had never let anything without a prop spinning out front away from them as is...



DMI
User currently offlinegoldenshield From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 6117 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 7701 times:

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 10):
I wish they had never let anything without a prop spinning out front away from them as is...


So you would rather they fly Electras, DC-7's, and Constellations?

Even if the jets were mainline, people would still be complaining about how "small" the RJs are, despite the fact that they are bigger than propliners of the 50's/60's. And even still, the most junior crews would be relegated to them.

[Edited 2010-03-03 20:36:15]


Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
User currently offlineMSYPI7185 From United States of America, joined Oct 2007, 711 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 7481 times:

US still has some E190's in the fleet, and we used to operate Fokker aircraft for many years. AA also had a sizable F100 fleet as well. At one time US and AA IIRC operated, Boeing, Airbus, McDonnell Douglas and Fokker aircraft, of course this was a quite a few years back now that I think about it. Time is flying fast!!

MD


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4317 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7019 times:

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 7):
Personally, I'd much rather have a seniority number at a legacy but somebody long before me decided they were too good to fly these jets. What we've seen over the past 10 years is senior widebody guys selling the guys at the bottom of their list (737, A320 drivers) by relaxing scope for better pay at their level. This is why we're now flying jets that 20 years ago would have been flown at the major level (like the F-28 and F-100 were) for much lower rates because we can't negotiation fast enough to keep pace with the changes in the industry.

  

Thats pretty much what it comes down to. Back when the Delta guys had a chance to fly the RJ's this is exactly what happened. Also remember back then that the Widebody fleet was much more prevelant domestically than it is today, so you had more widebody pilots who would support this. Nowadays it seems like a mortal sin for an airline to use a widebody for a domestic flight and because of this you need fewer widebody pilots.


I am going to do some research, but today, there are more Delta Connection flights then there are Delta Airlines flights. And if you don't count the international, it gets really alarming, with nearly 2/3 of all Delta domestic flights now being operated by connection partners. I am guessing numbers are similar at all the mainline carriers, but I hope to find that out. And Southwest, Airtran, JetBlue, and even the YX/F9 venture are all using mostly mainline products on their routes. I know passengers are very sensitive on price, but if given the choice between a mainline aircraft and an RJ, they will pick mainline every time.


User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3621 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 7001 times:

JetBlue has 100 seat E190 mainline aircraft.

DL has a payscale for the same plane. US flies a few and AC has a fleet of 190s.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25978 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4403 times:

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 14):
and AC has a fleet of 190s.

And 175s (15 175s and 45 190s).


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