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Why No US Carriers To KUL  
User currently offlineQantas777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 484 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7945 times:

I may have asked this before, but I keep forgetting. I bet it has been a topic in past.

Why no US airline to KUL from NRT?

Thx

24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4748 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks ago) and read 7878 times:

Simple... there is no feasible demand.


Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2072 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks ago) and read 7864 times:

Quoting Qantas777 (Thread starter):
I bet it has been a topic in past.

A search could answer that one for you.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks ago) and read 7834 times:

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 1):
Simple... there is no feasible demand

I could be wrong, but I've always had the impression that KUL was more of a leisure destination, which makes it pretty difficult to support a nonstop from the US.

I thought that KUL was part of NW's Pacific network in the not too distant pass, but it isn't listed on the Wikipedia list of past destinations, so I am probably making that up.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4748 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks ago) and read 7770 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):

I could be wrong, but I've always had the impression that KUL was more of a leisure destination, which makes it pretty difficult to support a nonstop from the US.

I thought that KUL was part of NW's Pacific network in the not too distant pass, but it isn't listed on the Wikipedia list of past destinations, so I am probably making that up.

BMI727,

you are not wrong on both counts. KUL does best to serve the region but as a global hub, it falls short unlike BKK and SIN. So your concerns about it being a leisure-oriented destination aren't unfounded. Presently, only Malaysia Airlines runs a daily service to LAX via TPE and that is about it. It has been said this service is unprofitable for a long time but it is the airline's only link to USA, their last route to EWR hung on for as long as it could via DXB then ARN and was eventually axed.

NWA did indeed serve KUL via OSA (Itami) back in the good old days using the DC10. The financial crisis in 97 saw the end of that service. These days setting aside 3 aircraft to sustain a destination that far from the homebase is no longer the thing to do unless you can be sure $$$ can be made out of it.



Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlineairpearl From Malaysia, joined May 2001, 943 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks ago) and read 7752 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
I thought that KUL was part of NW's Pacific network in the not too distant pass, but it isn't listed on the Wikipedia list of past destinations, so I am probably making that up.

KUL was part of NW's network between the late 1990s and 2001 with a 3-times weekly DC10 service out of KIX, originating in SEA. The service was suspended not long after 911 and never reinstated. Prior to that NW had flown in for a short period (not more than 1-2 years) around 1985, according to an old timetable I've seen, twice weekly on a B742.


User currently offlineairpearl From Malaysia, joined May 2001, 943 posts, RR: 26
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks ago) and read 7722 times:

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 4):
Presently, only Malaysia Airlines runs a daily service to LAX via TPE and that is about it.

The service is now only 3 times weekly by B772, down from daily B744 before. MH pretty much relied on carrying India-U.S. traffic to keep the route alive, but the many new direct and indirect options from India coupled with the financial crisis obviously ate into the business.


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4748 posts, RR: 26
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 7648 times:

Quoting airpearl (Reply 6):
The service is now only 3 times weekly by B772, down from daily B744 before.

Shit... I really need a new MH timetable. Hahahaha...

Out of curiosity, did NWA have Malaysia-based crew? I know they do in BKK and SIN as part of their intra-Asia service support.

[Edited 2010-03-03 17:59:01]


Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlineairpearl From Malaysia, joined May 2001, 943 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7490 times:

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 7):
Shit... I really need a new MH timetable. Hahahaha...

Out of curiosity, did NWA have Malaysia-based crew? I know they do in BKK and SIN as part of their intra-Asia service support.

Hahaha... and why would you ever need an MH timetable these days, except out of curiousity? Yes, NW did have Malaysia-based cabin crew and it seemed they were in for the long haul... much was made of the KUL-crew base in the local papers, and it was interesting too that they started the service after the onset of the Asian financial crisis and managed to keep it running for a couple of years before calling it quits, annoucing it before 911. I remember the suspension clearly because I was affected: was in the States and had one of the last flights scheduled back to KUL booked - when 911 happened, NW brought forward the suspension by about a week and I was reticketed with NW to NRT and onwards on MH to KUL.


User currently offlinebehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4754 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 7435 times:

Demand is there from USA to KUL year round, but the yield isnt as its primarily leisure oriented hence low yield margins for any major U.S. legacy carrier trying to launch their own flights there. The operational costs will be high as the flying distance is extremely lengthy + premium demand is lacking to cover up for cheap economy class fares.

In any case if any U.S. carrier did launch KUL, it would be a one stop flight hence not giving them any competitive edge versus SQ/CX/EK/KL etc.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24868 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 7389 times:

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 4):
NWA did indeed serve KUL via OSA (Itami) back in the good old days using the DC10. The financial crisis in 97 saw the end of that service. These days setting aside 3 aircraft to sustain a destination that far from the homebase is no longer the thing to do unless you can be sure $$$ can be made out of it.
Quoting airpearl (Reply 5):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
I thought that KUL was part of NW's Pacific network in the not too distant pass, but it isn't listed on the Wikipedia list of past destinations, so I am probably making that up.


KUL was part of NW's network between the late 1990s and 2001 with a 3-times weekly DC10 service out of KIX, originating in SEA. The service was suspended not long after 911 and never reinstated. Prior to that NW had flown in for a short period (not more than 1-2 years) around 1985, according to an old timetable I've seen, twice weekly on a B742.

NW and MH were even granted U.S. antitrust immunity in 2000 so they must have had some plans then for some kind of alliance cooperation. However the agreement was never implemented and both carriers advised the US DOT in 2005 that the grant of immunity could be cancelled.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11432 posts, RR: 61
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 7355 times:

Yeah, I must say - KUL has always been a bit of a mystery to me. It's not an all-that-small country (28+M), and KUL and surrounds is not at all a small market in and of itself (7.2M metro). Now, granted, Malaysia isn't quite as internationalized in terms of tourism, economics or geopolitics as some of the bigger regional markets like SIN or BKK, but again, it is still a sizable market.

I have always been surprised that JAL or ANA didn't put in a 767 (or frankly even a 737) timed like the BKK or SIN - with an early morning (pre-0800) departure out of KUL and an evening return (after 1700) to meet connections to and from North America. It would seem to be as good a connecting point as any, and add passengers onto ongoing flights out of NRT. Nonetheless, maybe the connections over HKG, TPE, and Europe can handle it.


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4748 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7166 times:

You wondered...

Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):
Yeah, I must say - KUL has always been a bit of a mystery to me. It's not an all-that-small country (28 M), and KUL and surrounds is not at all a small market in and of itself (7.2M metro).

But you answered your own question.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):
Now, granted, Malaysia isn't quite as internationalized in terms of tourism, economics or geopolitics as some of the bigger regional markets like SIN or BKK, but again, it is still a sizable market.

There is of course a sizeable population, no one is disputing that. But the percentage of those who can afford to travel is still rather marked down. Air Asia was created to encourage this group of folks who could not previously fly to pack their bags but these aren't the people US carriers want to approcah to make money out of a USA-KUL flight. So which brings us back to the lack of feasible demand or yield to launch such a route.

Therein lies the issue (I would not say it is a problem). Malaysia works well to serve the region because this is where people know them well. The country (or the airline for that matter) just isn't marketed well enough overseas for others to know what they stand for. Mention Thailand, you immediately think of a colourful, rich, vibrant culture with a buoyant tourism market. Think Singapore, what immediately comes to mind would be a thriving airport, a top airline, modern city with clean sidewalks devoid of chewing gum stains (hahaha...).

Mention Malaysia in USA, what comes to mind? And I mean an immediate thought without turning to wikipedia...

Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):
Nonetheless, maybe the connections over HKG, TPE, and Europe can handle it.

SQ actually poaches a lot of international pax from KUL due to the close proximity (390km).



Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlinechangyou From Singapore, joined Nov 2003, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7043 times:
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Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 12):
SQ actually poaches a lot of international pax from KUL due to the close proximity (390km).

Thats correct...I've been flying to the US pretty often and i do see many Malaysians travelling with SQ be it in ycl or jcl. I even had an MH pilot and his wife travelling on SQ from Sin-Ewr for holidays. Besides the US i also served the Sultan of Selangor on Lhr-Sin before. And his Majesty was not stopping in Sin but was connecting to Kul via Sin. I find that pretty odd coz MH do have non-stop to Kul from Lhr. Anyway am sure even the Sultan have his preferred airlines to fly...lol


User currently offlineQantas777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 484 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6765 times:

why not use a 75l nrt-kul? it can work. there are worse yield routes anyway on networks, so this one could at least feed nrt traffic.

User currently offlineklwright69 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jan 2000, 2017 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 6605 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 2):
Quoting Qantas777 (Thread starter):
I bet it has been a topic in past.

A search could answer that one for you.

I think this is a very interesting topic. I mean come on, we could tell people to to do a search before starting any new thread.


User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6301 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6339 times:

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 12):
Mention Malaysia in USA, what comes to mind?

Petronas Towers


User currently offlineQantas777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 484 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6178 times:

thanks for the props klwright69. Just typical uk nonsense stuff spitting from caledonian.

User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3889 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5191 times:

There's some evidence leftover from NWAs foray into the KUL market. There's a building near the Petronas Towers that has a huge "Northwest Airlines" sign in the bowling shoe font on it.

User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5125 times:

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 12):

Mention Malaysia in USA, what comes to mind?

What is "Made In".   

Quoting Ryanair!!! (Reply 4):
you are not wrong on both counts.

I accidentally looked at the DL former destinations, not NW. At least I wasn't making things up.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMAS777 From United Kingdom, joined Jul 1999, 2935 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4656 times:

Quoting airpearl (Reply 5):
around 1985, according to an old timetable I've seen, twice weekly on a B742.

indeed - Northwest Orient operated a 747 Classic from Kuala Lumpur via Tokyo to San Francisco with the final destination of Minneapolis/StPaul - think the route started in 1983. I remember seeing it arrive KUL just before midnight on my regular runs between KUL and LHR.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
NW and MH were even granted U.S. antitrust immunity in 2000

This was because MAS, KLM and NWA were planning to form an Alliance - the much mooted "Wings Alliance" - which was superceeded by Skyteam - which of equal curiosity doesn't now include MAS.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 11):
Nonetheless, maybe the connections over HKG, TPE, and Europe

Cathay and Eva do pretty well out of KUL with connections for USA/Canada.
BA used to carry quite a lot of traffic both pax and cargo from the US East Coast to KL via LHR when it once flew into KL.
I guess KLM may do the same now but i couldn't give any stats on KLM.


User currently offlineRyanair!!! From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 4748 posts, RR: 26
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 4058 times:

Quoting MAS777 (Reply 20):
Cathay and Eva do pretty well out of KUL with connections for USA/Canada.

CA, BR, TG, SQ, CI etc can run connections pretty well from KUL-USA i guess being a 6th freedom carrier via their own hub, aircraft utilisation isn't an issue. KUL-hub-USA is not the concentration, but instead a by-the-way arrangement.

Now try fitting a US carrier into this route. They would need an aircraft to be away (for at least 48 hrs) from homebase to a destination 10000kms away which doesn't necessarily give the same returns as, say, a USA-Europe run which can be easily completed within 12-16 hours. Thus, high net worth premium passengers would need to be there to shore up their earnings and that would mean the pax in JCL, not excursion fare paying YCL ones. Noticed how NWA/DAL and UAL 747s have SO MANY JCL seats on their Pacific configured fleets?

Destinations like SIN, HKG, NRT can support these cabins. I have really wondered about BKK but apparently they can too. If you look at other carriers serving KUL, mostly are doing it on 2-class configured aircraft so that along is pretty telling of the sort of market we are dealing with.



Welcome to my starry one world alliance, a team in the sky!
User currently offlinemalaysia From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 3332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3916 times:

I miss the MH 744 TPE-LAX daily which was a non-revvers dream (always had a seat on it both ways and every day of the week)


There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2072 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3653 times:

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 15):
Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 2):
Quoting Qantas777 (Thread starter):
I bet it has been a topic in past.

A search could answer that one for you.

I think this is a very interesting topic. I mean come on, we could tell people to to do a search before starting any new thread.

I'm not debating whether it's an interesting topic. But when the OP states he can't remember if he's asked this question before, and and states that he bets it's been asked anyway, I was simply saying a quick search would have answered that for him.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineWoof From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3540 times:

Quoting Qantas777 (Reply 17):
Just typical uk nonsense stuff spitting from caledonian.

OK, I'll bite the hook.


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