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Ressurecting The Dornier 328-100 Series?  
User currently offlineJoKeR From Serbia, joined Nov 2004, 2235 posts, RR: 9
Posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4016 times:

Seeing that the Do 228 has an NG version in production and that ATR has upgraded its 42 to the NG 600 series, the gap in modern 30-seater segment seems to have been left wide-open.

Sure, this is a very specific niche but if one was to offer an NG model of the 328-110 (turboprop) with various configurations in pax, cargo, QC, etc... would it work? Is there a demand for a NG 30 fast turboprop?


Kafa, čaj, šraf?
15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3933 times:

If there were such a market for this type of aircraft, they would certainly be building them by now.

The problem is, between the current economy and the fact there are still lots and LOTS of 30-seat category aircraft still flying about (plenty of Saab 340s, Dash-8-200s, EMB-120s, and 328s still flying), it most likely would not be a feasible venture right now.

And out of the 30-seater families, the EMB-120 or Dash-8-200 would be the easiest to redevelop and produce an NG type due to Embraer and Bombardier still being in business. Saab is long out of the airliner business, and Fairchild-Dornier simply no longer exists.

It would be easier for Bombardier to develop a 'shrink' of the Q400 into essentially a new Q200 with the Q400s speed and technology than it would be for anybody to resurrect the 328 from the dead.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineYXwatcherMkE From United States of America, joined May 2007, 971 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3672 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 1):
It would be easier for Bombardier to develop a 'shrink' of the Q400 into essentially a new Q200 with the Q400s speed and technology than it would be for anybody to resurrect the 328 from the dead.

Even though I like Turboprops, I have to agree with the above statement. UAX is in the process of getting rid of their EMB-120's from west coast operations. I think we will see more of that happening across the country and not just UAX. We are seeing this with RAH dropping F9's sister op's Lynx, they will stop operating their Q-400's sometime after September 1st and replace them with E170's and E190's. Yet it would be a great way to provide service to the smarter markets around the YX hub at MKE. The problem in the USA is there is a strong dislike of turboprop a/c and more so when the passenger can not stand up straight in the plane as they are heading to or from their seat. There are very few turboprop a/c that you can walk into and stand up right as you walk to your seat plus they are consider noisy plans to ride in.



I miss the 60's & 70's when you felt like a guest on the plane not cattle like today
User currently offlinejoecanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5410 posts, RR: 30
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3634 times:

BBD had Q versions of their 100,200 and 300 models, using active sound canceling to quiet the plane's interior. Since they NG'd the Q400, the interior would fit the fuse of the smaller models.

Unfortunately, the smaller models just stopped selling so BBD has canceled production. I'm sure if a customer really wanted a bunch of 30-50 seaters they could restart production but for now, all but the Q400's are dead ducks.

ATR is still offering the 42 so the 50 seat market still has aircraft available and they just upgraded them to the -600 model level. I wonder how they are selling...



What the...?
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3599 times:

Quoting YXwatcherMkE (Reply 2):
Even though I like Turboprops, I have to agree with the above statement. UAX is in the process of getting rid of their EMB-120's from west coast operations. I think we will see more of that happening across the country and not just UAX. We are seeing this with RAH dropping F9's sister op's Lynx, they will stop operating their Q-400's sometime after September 1st and replace them with E170's and E190's. Yet it would be a great way to provide service to the smarter markets around the YX hub at MKE. The problem in the USA is there is a strong dislike of turboprop a/c and more so when the passenger can not stand up straight in the plane as they are heading to or from their seat. There are very few turboprop a/c that you can walk into and stand up right as you walk to your seat plus they are consider noisy plans to ride in.

The public perception of turboprops is not nearly as negative now as it was 10-15 years ago. All of the modern 30+ seat turboprop airliners have a cabin height of at least six feet. You can stand up in them. The noise is an issue, but the negative perceptions were not about noise so much as safety.

As such, SkyWest's decision to eliminate EMB-120 flying and Republic's decision to shut down Lynx were not based on public perception.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlineYXwatcherMkE From United States of America, joined May 2007, 971 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3583 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 4):
As such, SkyWest's decision to eliminate EMB-120 flying and Republic's decision to shut down Lynx were not based on public perception.

As for Republic's shutting down Lynx it is BB's dis like of Props. He wants an all jet fleet.



I miss the 60's & 70's when you felt like a guest on the plane not cattle like today
User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3557 times:

Quoting YXwatcherMkE (Reply 5):

As for Republic's shutting down Lynx it is BB's dis like of Props. He wants an all jet fleet.

My understanding it was due more to the expense involved of maintaining yet another certificated carrier for a fleet of only 11 aircraft negated the cost-efficiency of the Q400 over the existing 170s and 190s.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25015 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3555 times:
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Quoting JBo (Reply 4):
As such, SkyWest's decision to eliminate EMB-120 flying and Republic's decision to shut down Lynx were not based on public perception.

At least in part Republic's decision was. They have said they were meeting increasing resistance to the turboprop on those routes where there was a jet alternative.

mariner

[Edited 2010-03-06 19:56:08]


aeternum nauta
User currently onlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2675 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3523 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 1):
And out of the 30-seater families, the EMB-120 or Dash-8-200 would be the easiest to redevelop and produce an NG type due to Embraer and Bombardier still being in business. Saab is long out of the airliner business, and Fairchild-Dornier simply no longer exists.

Not only that, BAe no longer builds any passenger aircraft of their own.


User currently offlineYXwatcherMkE From United States of America, joined May 2007, 971 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3523 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 6):
My understanding it was due more to the expense involved of maintaining yet another certificated carrier for a fleet of only 11 aircraft negated the cost-efficiency of the Q400 over the existing 170s and 190s

Yes that has some truth to that, however, I was talking to a YX employee not to long ago about the removal of the Q-400's. I was told that there was some effort by MKE people to have some of the Q-400's moved to MKE to operate on some routes that the E-jets were to expensive to have on the routes. They were told that BB wants the Q's out of the fleet of RAH and that there would not be anymore Prop a/c as long as BB was in charge.  



I miss the 60's & 70's when you felt like a guest on the plane not cattle like today
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25015 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3118 times:
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Quoting YXwatcherMkE (Reply 9):
to operate on some routes that the E-jets were to expensive to have on the routes. They were told that BB wants the Q's out of the fleet of RAH and that there would not be anymore Prop a/c as long as BB was in charge.

Really, it is very seldom one thing. Yes, BB said from the git-go that he wasn't keen on having a turboprop fleet.

But it is also true that Lynx didn't have the greatest load factors in the world and it is also true that there was proven passenger resistance to it on some routes.

And it is also true that the Q's had a lousy reputation for reliability. Now, this may have something to do with the way it was scheduled, with little allowance for a spare, but check back on any of the threads (or posts) about Lynx's unreliability at FAR, for example.

When the Q's first started, they were so unreliable that after a few months each of them went back to Bombardier for a serious overhaul. It helped - but did not completely fix - the problem.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineBravo1Six From Canada, joined Dec 2007, 397 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2993 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 10):
When the Q's first started, they were so unreliable that after a few months each of them went back to Bombardier for a serious overhaul. It helped - but did not completely fix - the problem.

None of Lynx's Q400s ever "went back to Bombardier".


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25015 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2887 times:
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Quoting Bravo1Six (Reply 11):
None of Lynx's Q400s ever "went back to Bombardier".

According to Frontier, they did - it was discussed at a shareholders AGM.

I haven't kept the flight plans, but I used to have at least one showing the return.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineYXwatcherMkE From United States of America, joined May 2007, 971 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2852 times:

Well regardless the Q-400's are going away. Which I 'm still not to happy about, because there are a few market out of MKE that could have been served by them nicely but I'm not sure that the 135's or 145's would have as good of a profit from the cities over the Q-400's would have. I might be wrong though, My wife tells me that often.


I miss the 60's & 70's when you felt like a guest on the plane not cattle like today
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1359 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2660 times:

Who holds the rights to the 328 prop and 328 jet?

User currently offlineA342 From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 4680 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2460 times:

Quoting JBo (Reply 1):

It would be easier for Bombardier to develop a 'shrink' of the Q400 into essentially a new Q200 with the Q400s speed and technology than it would be for anybody to resurrect the 328 from the dead.

No way. 4500hp engines on a 30-seater is beyond overkill. The economics would be atrocious, probably much worse than jets.
Much better to abuse the ATR42 on 30-seater routes.

Quoting ADent (Reply 14):
Who holds the rights to the 328 prop and 328 jet?

A company called 328 Support Services GmbH: http://www.328support.de/

Their business model is somewhat similar to Fokker Services: they support the aircraft (both parts and mx), remarket aircraft which are currently in storage, do executive jet / special mission conversions etc.


One should remember that despite the demise of Dornier, new 328Jets were produced until a few years ago by Avcraft. I'm quite sure all the tooling still exists and if necessary, production could be re-started relatively fast.



Exceptions confirm the rule.
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