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The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation Part II  
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9214 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Continuation of Part I , which become too long:

The Game Begins-2010 U.S.-HND Allocation (by Aaway Jan 26 2010 in Civil Aviation)


New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2089 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9211 times:

So what route authorities were applied for, in summary?


Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5271 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 9194 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 1):
So what route authorities were applied for, in summary?

AA
JFK-HND 777
LAX-HND 777

CO
EWR-HND 777
GUM-HND 764

DL
SEA-HND 333
DTW-HND 744
LAX-HND 744
HNL-HND 744

HA
HNL-HND 2 daily 763

UA
SFO-HND 777



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8017 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9082 times:

If UA gets SFO-HND with the 777-200ER that plane is going to be PACKED all the time. People dislike the long trip from NRT back to central Tokyo and HND makes it much more viable to use taxi/limousine service.

User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8903 times:

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 3):

If UA gets SFO-HND with the 777-200ER that plane is going to be PACKED all the time. People dislike the long trip from NRT back to central Tokyo and HND makes it much more viable to use taxi/limousine service.


true but that is all they will have till their A350s come on board. They are retiring the 744s. Better have a full and popular 777 that a not so full 744 on a not so popular route.

The waiting, even thought expidited, is driving me nuts. How much longer till initial route are granted?



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlineMPDPilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 993 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 8856 times:

Do we know when they will release the winners? There were some dates mentioned in the last thread but some of those dates have already passed.


One mile of highway gets you one mile, one mile of runway gets you anywhere.
User currently offlineFFlyerWorld From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 335 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 8481 times:

For those interested this is a decent overview of what's happening with each airline application and answers/replies, etc., etc. Looks like the last bit of communication was March 5th. I believe final replies are due today - March 8th.

http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostdocket2010/ost20100018.html


User currently offlineHNL-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 819 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8311 times:

Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 6):
For those interested this is a decent overview of what's happening with each airline application and answers/replies, etc., etc. Looks like the last bit of communication was March 5th. I believe final replies are due today - March 8th.

http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostdocket2010/ost20100018.html


Thank you for the information. What a bunch of defensive rhetoric.



Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32781 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8283 times:

My favorite line is from Continental's response to Delta:

Quote:
Delta's Seattle proposal shoudl be rejected out of hand. The entire Seattle-Tokyo market would nto even fill up half the economy cabin of Delta's A-330 aircraft and all the passengers could be accommodated in a Delta DC-9-40 with five seats left over.



a.
User currently offlinePHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8197 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
My favorite line is from Continental's response to Delta:

Quote:
Delta's Seattle proposal shoudl be rejected out of hand. The entire Seattle-Tokyo market would nto even fill up half the economy cabin of Delta's A-330 aircraft and all the passengers could be accommodated in a Delta DC-9-40 with five seats left over.

What is even funnier about it is their inability to do math.

Continental claims 115 pax per day each way out of SEA, and says that all could be accomodated on a DC-9-40 (seating 110 people) with 5 seats left over. If they knew math, it would fill a DC-9-40 with 5 people sitting on the wing. Way to flub that one.


User currently offlinecrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8075 times:

I like, in particular, a couple of parts from AA's answer that was filed today:

Excerpt of answer to Delta's application:

"Indeed, Delta's 21-page pleading has 20 separate references to JAL, 36 to oneworld, 16 to ANA, and 47 to Star. It has been observed, however, that "mere repetition or arguments...is insufficient,"...and that "no amount of pure repetitive assertion can make it so,"...Those observations apply to Delta here."   

Excerpt of answer to HA's application:

"Hawaiian's answer rivals Delta's in repetition. Just as Delta seizes on the ATI applications by American and Continental/United, Hawaiian seizes on the theme that unlike other applicants, it does not already serve Japan. Thus, Hawaiian is a "new entrant" offering a "new option"; "all of the other applications" serve Tokyo; Hawaiian is the sole "have not" among the applicants; it "does not presently serve Tokyo" and "does not offer any U.S.-Tokyo service"; Hawaiian will not experience diversion from existing Japan service; Hawaiian is the only applicant "with no service to Japan"; it has "no operations or investment at Narita"; Hawaiian operates "no service to Tokyo from Honolulu"; it is "a new entrant"; it offers "a new option", etc."   

I kinda found both of these to be amusing. But anyway, like others pointed out, AA (along with the other applicants) really seemed to go after DL more than any other competitor, and with good reason IMO.


User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 8005 times:

I never thought legal documents would be so much fun to read.

I would love to see it played out in a pentagonal cage....[ dream sequence with crossinds21 quote]

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 10):
"Indeed, Delta's 21-page pleading has 20 separate references to JAL, 36 to oneworld, 16 to ANA, and 47 to Star. It has been observed, however, that "mere repetition or arguments...is insufficient,"...and that "no amount of pure repetitive assertion can make it so,"...Those observations apply to Delta here.

"Just cuz you say so dun make it so...Booya!" added the black suit red-tie wearing lawyer as he threw the mic down to cheers and jeers of the well dressed corporate gallery. [ /dream sequence ]

Quoting crosswinds21 (Reply 10):
AA (along with the other applicants) really seemed to go after DL more than any other competitor,

I think it is only the beginning of that fight and this was just on paper. The next fight will be in actual US-Japan service between OneWorld and Skyteam.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlinecrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7946 times:

Quoting centrair (Reply 11):
I think it is only the beginning of that fight and this was just on paper. The next fight will be in actual US-Japan service between OneWorld and Skyteam.

Yes, definitely. I'm looking forward to seeing what transpires in the next couple of years. Can you only imagine what would happen if, by some chance, AA got both frequencies while DL got nothing? Or, if DL got 2+ frequencies while AA got nothing?


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5271 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 7940 times:

Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 9):
What is even funnier about it is their inability to do math.

Continental claims 115 pax per day each way out of SEA, and says that all could be accomodated on a DC-9-40 (seating 110 people) with 5 seats left over. If they knew math, it would fill a DC-9-40 with 5 people sitting on the wing. Way to flub that one.

LOL. Over the years, I've noticed a distinct lack of professionalism in some of COs DOT filings while AA, UA, US, DL have been able to criticize their competitors while remaining completely professional.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
My favorite line is from Continental's response to Delta:

Quote:Delta's Seattle proposal shoudl be rejected out of hand. The entire Seattle-Tokyo market would nto even fill up half the economy cabin of Delta's A-330 aircraft and all the passengers could be accommodated in a Delta DC-9-40 with five seats left over.

What is your problem with DL anyway? There isn't a single other airline in the US that you take digs at the way you take digs at DL.

[Edited 2010-03-08 20:51:30]


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinecentrair From Japan, joined Jan 2005, 3598 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7405 times:

Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 6):
http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostdocket2010/ost20100018.html

On the front page of that site, it says "answer" for US-JAPAN allocations. Are these the actual results? It is only accessible with username and password.



Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
User currently offlinecrosswinds21 From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 698 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7363 times:

Quoting centrair (Reply 15):
On the front page of that site, it says "answer" for US-JAPAN allocations. Are these the actual results? It is only accessible with username and password.

If you go to Part 1 of this thread, there is a link posted there to a US Government website where you can get all these for free. The link starts with www.regulations.gov. And no, these aren't actual "results"...they're just responses to the applications by various parties (including the airlines themselves).


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32781 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7310 times:

Quoting centrair (Reply 15):
Quoting FFlyerWorld (Reply 6):
http://www.airlineinfo.com/ostdocket2010/ost20100018.html

On the front page of that site, it says "answer" for US-JAPAN allocations. Are these the actual results? It is only accessible with username and password.

Unfortunately it will probably be until at least May that we hear the results, but maybe the U.S. will speed things up given the desire to have everything launched by October.



a.
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11438 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7055 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Another way to obtain the information about the docket

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Re...l#docketDetail?R=DOT-OST-2010-0018

In my view, seems that HA would be the one on the top of the list considering they are the new potential player. Question is if they will got 1 or 2 daily frequencies.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2443 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6904 times:

My pics:

UA SFO-HND, AA LAX-HND, DL LAX-HND, HA HNL-HND

1- Hawaii-Japan is a huge market
2- Let AA and DL fight over LAX
3- East coast/Midwest apps should not be awarded for the first round



oh boy!!!
User currently offlinetraindoc From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 6885 times:

I arrived in NRT yesterday on CO 7. While taxiing to the gate, I saw 3 DL 747-400's, 1 767-300, and about 6 330's and 757's. So DL needs more slots to Tokyo? They are the 400 pound gorilla!

User currently onlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7603 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6807 times:

Quoting traindoc (Reply 26):
I arrived in NRT yesterday on CO 7. While taxiing to the gate, I saw 3 DL 747-400's, 1 767-300, and about 6 330's and 757's. So DL needs more slots to Tokyo? They are the 400 pound gorilla!

Its a different airport. HND is much closer to central Tokyo, thus making it alot more desireable.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineEMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 648 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6745 times:

I'm going to bet that DL gets one set of slots. If for no other reason, DL has said that they would be happy to split their 7 weekly frequencies among the markets they've chosen. That makes me think that the DOT would want to spread the wealth as much as they could, and if DL would be willing to split it up, for example:

LAX- M, Th
HNL-Sa
SEA- T, F
DTW- W, Su

that they would get at least something.

I also think it's a given that HA will get one set of slots for no other reason that they are a new entrant. I also think AA will probably get the set they have applied for, as well. Whether they are given the go-ahead on LAX or JFK I don't know.

Would AA be willing to do a DL and split the difference- serve LAX 4 days a week and JFK the other 3?

As I see it the loser will either be CO or UA. Now that they have ATI (and their JV covers the Pacific as well as the Atlantic), and given that that ATI involves NH as well, I can't see the DOT allowing Star Alliance to monopolize US-HND slots.



Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2412 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 6551 times:

Quoting traindoc (Reply 26):
400 pound gorilla

That's one small gorilla.  

I too believe that HA's application for the initial round of service should be rejected. Hawaiian had the opportunity to serve NRT in the past, but pursued a different course of action. Now that Haneda is on the table, Hawaiian projects to be able to fill 528 daily seats on flights spaced just a few minutes apart? Copious data show that leisure travelers are far less likely to pay a premium for airport convenience, so the impact of HND on NRT-HNL operations is likely to be smaller than its effect other business-oriented city pairs.

One of the four major US players to Tokyo should not be artificially blocked from competing at HND because the DOT saw fit to award service to a leisure-oriented market whose predominant customer base will be Japanese. I firmly maintain that the greatest competitive detriment will go to the one major US-Japan carrier (AA/CO/DL/UA) who loses out, and sees their existing (likely profitable) NRT services weakened because its national competition now offers service to a more convenient airport. HA stands to lose no established competitive position, since their presence in the Japanese market is nonexistent, and it is likely that they would receive further slot awards in subsequent cycles.


User currently offlineHNL-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 819 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 6414 times:

Quoting CODC10 (Reply 33):
I too believe that HA's application for the initial round of service should be rejected. Hawaiian had the opportunity to serve NRT in the past, but pursued a different course of action.

If memory serves me right, the authority was from OGG to NRT not HNL - NRT. As I recall, it was based on the fact that the planned runway extension at OGG would be undertaken, but public outcry was such that the plans for the extension were shelved. Regardless, I don't believe it is that uncommon for an airline to apply for a route and then never launch service once the application has been approved. If routes applied for and never flown or quickly terminated once service was launched, then none of these applicants would be elegible.



Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
User currently offlineCO787EWR From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6248 times:

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 25):
3- East coast/Midwest apps should not be awarded for the first round

I believe NYC is a lock for a slot, the debate is whether AA or CO gets it.


25 DFWEagle : First, let me say that I personally hope that Hawaiian gets a slot and I would much prefer to see them get into Haneda than anyone else (except AA). H
26 crosswinds21 : I think this is the key argument here and you hit it right on the spot. This isn't about providing service to Tokyo as a whole, but rather about serv
27 centrair : If HA wanted, they could start service to NGO or KIX tomorrow. I bet they could also get their one unused Maui-NRT route shifted due to a deficient fa
28 hjulicher : Let me put this out there.. How many business travelers originating in the US are even familiar with Haneda? Of course it's a large airport, but when
29 LipeGIG : Business or not business, no one believe that resorts, hotels and investments in Hawai are not supported by US money. So, yes, there's always business
30 mah4546 : LAWA (Los Angeles World Airports) looks to be taking sides. It has filed a letter to DOT asking for the LAX award to go to American Airlines.
31 Cubsrule : To be honest, though, I don't know that HA's new entrant status should play in. This isn't a situation like CLT-GIG because HA, unlike US, has applie
32 CODC10 : I wonder if this is the result of a lobby by AA, since it is unlikely that the NYC service will be granted to AA in lieu of CO. Time will tell, but I
33 Post contains images commavia : Very interesting. Seems as though perhaps the storied excellent working relationship between AA and LAX continues to pay dividends for AA - much like
34 LipeGIG : Agree and respect your view. On last Brazilian allocation, DOT has decided on a new player (US CLT-GIG) and the big business market (CO IAH-GIG). But
35 FutureUScapt : With all respect, how do you figure that? There's absolutely no way that they would get 2, so frankly I don't really see the point unless they are si
36 Cubsrule : Yes, though they surely could have moved them to HNL had they been so inclined. The NRT slots, had they secured them, would have worked equally well
37 LipeGIG : In my personal view that's why they were smart. I'm sure there's no way to get 2, but they have a good case with the O&D and no current operation
38 HAL : No, actually we were not allowed to serve NRT from HNL, only OGG. And since the runway at OGG is too short to allow a flight to NRT, we couldn't use
39 Pohakuloa : I am going to venture into territory I probably should not here (mostly because of not knowing on my behalf). Are the differences in Haneda and Narita
40 DFWEagle : Since 1998, the US-Japan bilateral has permitted Hawaiian to serve Honolulu-Tokyo. There have been spare unrestricted US-Tokyo frequencies and spare
41 WA707atMSP : And, DL's decision to squat on gates in T5 several years ago, when LAWA wanted to give some of DL's then-underutilized gates to other airlines, has b
42 as739x : I agree with your first 3, but I do not believe that they'd give the 4th to DL to operate to LAX. I just do not see them giving 3 of 4 to California
43 Cubsrule : NRT will allegedly be open once the "Open Skies" agreement enters into force, but there will still be the difficulty of securing slots (and, in fact,
44 Post contains links and images as739x : Interesting, well there is always the new airport!!! New Tokyo Airport Opens: Ibaraki - Govt. Waste? (by OP3000 Mar 11 2010 in Civil Aviation)
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