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Boy Talks To Pilots At JFK - Part 2  
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12500 posts, RR: 46
Posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 7888 times:
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Please continue the discussion from here:
Boy Talks To Pilots From JFK Airport Tower (by werdywerd Mar 2 2010 in Civil Aviation)

Quote:
MYFOXNY.COM - The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating an air traffic controller who apparently let a child speak to pilots over the radio from the control tower at John F. Kennedy Airport.

VIDEO/TEXT HERE:
http://www.myfoxny.com/dpp/traffic/t...ts-from-jfk-airport-tower-20100302


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
313 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 7830 times:

For all those who say this incident is being blown out of proportion, safety was not compromised, the kids instructions were clearer than what one might hear from foreign ATC, etc etc:

Just imagine you are the crew of a US airliner approaching Bombay, Beijing, Moscow, or Jakarta airports, and you hear what is clearly a child in heavily accented Indian / Chinese / Russian / Indonesian accents issuing landing (or departure) clearances.

Wonder how long it would take for the ALPA and the US controllers union (and indeed many of the controllers defending the JFK incident) to condemn the incident, airport, country, safety culture, etc etc?

Just wondering...  


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8234 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 7749 times:

Quoting Sankaps (Reply 1):
Just wondering...

A lot of the Asian female controllers sound like kids anyway...

 



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinepeterjohns From Germany, joined Jan 2009, 202 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7692 times:

Quoting Sankaps (Reply 1):
Wonder how long it would take for the ALPA and the US controllers union (and indeed many of the controllers defending the JFK incident) to condemn the incident, airport, country, safety culture, etc etc?

Please get this right- I am not by any means defending the incident. I am challenging the statements that it was dangerous.

We had the discussion about third world countries already.


User currently offlinealwaysontherun From Netherlands Antilles, joined Jan 2010, 464 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 7667 times:

Quoting Sankaps (Reply 1):
For all those who say this incident is being blown out of proportion, safety was not compromised, the kids instructions were clearer than what one might hear from foreign ATC, etc etc:

Just imagine you are the crew of a US airliner approaching Bombay, Beijing, Moscow, or Jakarta airports, and you hear what is clearly a child in heavily accented Indian / Chinese / Russian / Indonesian accents issuing landing (or departure) clearances.

Wonder how long it would take for the ALPA and the US controllers union (and indeed many of the controllers defending the JFK incident) to condemn the incident, airport, country, safety culture, etc etc?

Just wondering...  

A fair question………..
I guess we will only know till it happens…………but I´m expecting a bit of double standards, (at least on this forum) as I witness a lot of double standards on A.net in general, especially with regards to the U.S of A.

It was an unprofessional move, with the best intentions and most probably carried out in the safest way possible.
(We hope).
I just wonder what the consequences may be for this individual and his/her superiors.
They probably regret doing it.

### "I am always on the Run"###



"Failure is not an option, it comes standard in any Windows product" - an anonymous MAC owner.
User currently offlinepink77W From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 7619 times:

does this incident put to rest that ATC is such a tough
Job? I mean if a kid can do it, maybe ATCs get paid way
Too much!!!!


User currently offlinecuban8 From Kiribati, joined Sep 2009, 269 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 7598 times:

Quoting Sankaps (Reply 1):
Just imagine you are the crew of a US airliner approaching Bombay, Beijing, Moscow, or Jakarta airports, and you hear what is clearly a child in heavily accented Indian / Chinese / Russian / Indonesian accents issuing landing (or departure) clearances.

Only that in this case it was between people from the same country. So there is a certain difference.

If you approach some of the cities you have mentioned above, you will notice that they quite often speak their own language with local pilots. You can even notice it in more developed countries such as Spain, Italy, France etc. That is in my opinion more of a safety issue than having a kid giving clearances directed by his father.

What I'm trying to say is that this is a media thing out of proportion. They are doing a good job since they are selling news papers on this story. But if they'd really want to write about safety issues in aviation, they should start from another end. There are far more important aviation matters that the media never covers.


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7512 times:

Quoting pink77W (Reply 5):
does this incident put to rest that ATC is such a tough
Job? I mean if a kid can do it, maybe ATCs get paid way
Too much!!!!

Share with us all of you knowledge of ATC, and assign specific dollar amounts to each function.

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 6):
What I'm trying to say is that this is a media thing out of proportion. They are doing a good job since they are selling news papers on this story. But if they'd really want to write about safety issues in aviation, they should start from another end. There are far more important aviation matters that the media never covers.

Thank you.
        



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7454 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 7):
Share with us all of you knowledge of ATC, and assign specific dollar amounts to each function.

I also ask pink77W to share this information.....just how much is a final monitor worth during triple independent operations, or better yet, how much is the hourly rate for a enroute sequencing controller who is feeding arrivals to the termianl facility during the peak arrvial bank on the northwest corner of ATL or ORD?

I still cannot believe this much attention is given to this topic and all the hoopa surrounding it, WOW!



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7414 times:

What's with all of the what if's now??? What if a foreign controller did this, what if the boy was allowed to fly the airplane??? What if I brought my kid into court and talked to them during a trial??? What if this and that???  

This is getting ridiculous.....those of us who are controllers on here are not defending the controllers actions but that this was done just like any session a developmental would have, you basically parrot your instructor. YES he should NOT have let his kid give out clearences but NOTHING happened nor would have happened in this scenario. Should the controller and his supervisor get terminated for this, NO WAY, a good talking to about not doing it again, YES!!!

So lets quit using this hypothetical mumbo jumbo as it really doesn't pertain to the actual subject at hand. Nothing happened and nothing was going to happen.

I will summarize for those who may not understand fully yet:

1. It was a mistake that this controller shouldn't have made.

2. Was anyone in danger??? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3. I do not condone what he did nor would I let my son do the same thing, I don't believe my career could handle that.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21571 posts, RR: 55
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7385 times:

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 8):
or better yet, how much is the hourly rate for a enroute sequencing controller who is feeding arrivals to the termianl facility during the peak arrvial bank on the northwest corner of ATL or ORD?

Ooh! Ooh! I know this one!   

Not enough.  

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5155 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7377 times:

Bravo, FX1816!

I like the guy. He did something dumb, in the broad scheme of things. Nobody was hurt. It was kind of charming in a way, which is doubtless how he saw it. And it probably wouldn't have happened again even if it didn't come to light, because he apparently thought better about it, and reported himself.

But it hit the media a month later, and they couldn't resist doing what they do. After all, the primary subtext of most media stories is: "Isn't this awful?!"

It's the kind of thing that should basically result in a "Don't do that again." With the same message sent clearly to everyone else. And that's it.

PS God forbid they got ahold of some of those goofy "Boston John" tapes, or actually paid attention to the infamous PVD United-in-fog incident. Somehow, the latter got the attention it deserved in the controller community, without the controller being fired or the media being too terribly involved.


User currently offlineSankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7318 times:

Quoting cuban8 (Reply 6):
Quoting Sankaps (Reply 1):
Just imagine you are the crew of a US airliner approaching Bombay, Beijing, Moscow, or Jakarta airports, and you hear what is clearly a child in heavily accented Indian / Chinese / Russian / Indonesian accents issuing landing (or departure) clearances.

Only that in this case it was between people from the same country. So there is a certain difference.
Quoting cuban8 (Reply 6):
If you approach some of the cities you have mentioned above, you will notice that they quite often speak their own language with local pilots

Uh-oh... Mexico is now a part of the US? Adios amigos is English? JFK is not used by foreign airlines?  
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 9):
2. Was anyone in danger??? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

While in this case it did not lead to an accident, it was a dangerous action. Analogous to someone speeding in a straight line in a clear lane at 120mph on a highway and getting a ticket for it. The driver could argue there was no accident, no one was in danger, etc... but it is risky and potentially dangerous behaviour and therefore illegal.


User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 7268 times:

This whole affair reminds me of the following:

1. Toonces, the cat who could drive a car!

2.
Before folks hijacked planes, Mr. Ed was the trendsetter, taking the controls of some propeller plane in beautiful black and white for a spin in the wild blue yonder. I believe it was a DC 4 cargo plane. ツ



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinepeterjohns From Germany, joined Jan 2009, 202 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 7219 times:

Quoting Sankaps (Reply 12):

Where I live, doing 120 on the Autobahn is quite normal, not very dangerous and not illegal.   


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7171 times:

Quoting Sankaps (Reply 12):
it was a dangerous action.

No, it was not. There was nothing even remotely dangerous about this.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 2985 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7136 times:

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 14):
Where I live, doing 120 on the Autobahn is quite normal, not very dangerous

Except if you're doing it in the left lane and there's a conga-line of Mercedes/BMWs/Audis/Porsches coming up behind you at 200kmh - especially if any of them have Dutch/Belgian plates.

[Edited 2010-03-08 04:40:54]

[Edited 2010-03-08 04:41:50]


Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinepink77W From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7099 times:

Share with you my knowledge of ATC?
I know at one of the hardest airports in the world
They use kids to direct.
Next question


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7079 times:

Quoting pink77W (Reply 17):
Share with you my knowledge of ATC?

Yes, please do.

Quoting pink77W (Reply 17):
know at one of the hardest airports in the world
They use kids to direct.

Is that really your knowledge base? Please tell me you have more knowledge of the ATC system than that! Please tell me you that were actually joking in Reply 5, and that they use kids to direct traffic at one of the hardest airports in the world.

As many others have mentioned, the kid was not simply left alone in the tower or even under "general supervision", to come up with the perfect phraseology. It was not unsafe, but poor judgement did prevail. I'll bet you've used poor judgement a few times yourself.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 11):
PS God forbid they got ahold of some of those goofy "Boston John" tapes, or actually paid attention to the infamous PVD United-in-fog incident.

Or a few of the things almost every controller or pilot has voiced on the radio. They'd have to suspend almost everyone qualified to operate the aviation system.  



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineAndyinPIT From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 320 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7060 times:

Quoting pink77W (Reply 17):
Share with you my knowledge of ATC?

You still haven't said how much a fair amount is. Do you even know how much controllers make? Are you even old enough to be a controller? The kid was being TOLD what to say, he didn't have to think for it on his own. He didn't have to shoot an arrival/departure gap on his own, he told a plane cleared for takeoff, when his dad told him to. That aspect makes it very, very easy. But to do the job where you have 100s of variables thrown at you in a shift, takes a lot out of a person.

Go sit on clearance delivery on a SWAP night and tell me this job is easy.


User currently offlineSankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7023 times:

Quoting peterjohns (Reply 14):
Where I live, doing 120 on the Autobahn is quite normal, not very dangerous and not illegal.

Yet even in your country, a lot of the autobahns do actually have speed limits, especially those with more traffic or in more crowded areas.

Regarding dangerous... have you checked the fatality rate on the highways in Germany vs the US or UK?


User currently offlineSankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 7018 times:

Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 15):
No, it was not. There was nothing even remotely dangerous about this.

Would you feel the same way if you were an American (or German) pilot and you heard a kid with a strong Indian or Russian accent issuing ATC instructions in Bombay or Moscow? Answer this honestly, that's all I ask.


User currently offlineIAHFLYR From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 4790 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6995 times:

Quoting Sankaps (Reply 21):
Would you feel the same way if you were an American (or German) pilot and you heard a kid with a strong Indian or Russian accent issuing ATC instructions in Bombay or Moscow? Answer this honestly, that's all I ask.

I'll jump in and answer, if you'll allow me, if not sorry!  

Given the nearly perfect phraseology (if not completely perfect) that was used by the "young controller", as a pilot I would have not one issue with the instruction given as you mention. And that is an honest answer coming from an aviator as well.



Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6982 times:

Quoting Sankaps (Reply 21):
Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 15):
No, it was not. There was nothing even remotely dangerous about this.

Would you feel the same way if you were an American (or German) pilot and you heard a kid with a strong Indian or Russian accent issuing ATC instructions in Bombay or Moscow? Answer this honestly, that's all I ask.

You know you really should be careful about saying that you hear a kid voice giving ATC instructions, the sound of a voice can be very misleading. Heck just in the Southern California area there a quite a few female controllers and some male controllers too that could easily be mistaken for a kid. But to answer your question would I feel safe, why not it wouldn't bother me.

Quoting Sankaps (Reply 12):
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 9):
2. Was anyone in danger??? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

While in this case it did not lead to an accident, it was a dangerous action. Analogous to someone speeding in a straight line in a clear lane at 120mph on a highway and getting a ticket for it. The driver could argue there was no accident, no one was in danger, etc... but it is risky and potentially dangerous behaviour and therefore illegal.

I will say however that your analogy here is absolutely pointless and is NOT at all comparable to this situation. Unless, how did your OJTI handle your training at your facility???

FX1816


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6933 times:

Quoting FX1816 (Reply 23):
Heck just in the Southern California area there a quite a few female controllers and some male controllers too that could easily be mistaken for a kid.

Perhaps, but I cannot believe that any pilot, on hearing the JFK kid's instructions, would have thought to themselves - that might be an adult controller that just sounds like a kid. (Note I'm not discounting your experience that some adult ATC controllers sound like kids, only stating that no one would have any doubt the fact that this kid was not an adult).



The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
25 SPREE34 : Define "hardest airports". You have not answered. Your reply can't even qualify as sarcasm. Don't duck the question. It STILL stands. I would. Maybe
26 Sankaps : I see. I guess nothing learnt then from the Aeroflot A310 disaster when the pilot's kid accidentally disengaged the autopiot. Until that point, he wa
27 Post contains images FX1816 : In that case at JFK, yes you can tell it is a kid but there are definitely a few out here who could make you really think that it might be a kid. The
28 FX1816 : There is NO comparing the SU A310 and this situation. These are extremely different cases altogether, that kid WAS in control of the airplane this ki
29 SPREE34 : Everyone who puts forth this argument, only amplifies what many of us have said about lack of knowledge and understanding of ATC. The A310 example is
30 Sankaps : The kid was IN CONTROL OF issuing departure clearances to actual commercial aircraft, whether or not he was repating what his dad told him to say. Pe
31 IAHFLYR : I have been polite with my thoughts directed toward most of your posts, right up to now! You've crossed the line with the above comment pal. Controll
32 2H4 : Please back up your statement by providing some examples of what the kid could have said that could not have been instantly rectified by his father.
33 herc4ever : Don't hold your breath, because apprentely the whole part of "mic over-ride" is a tough concept for people to grasp.[Edited 2010-03-08 10:18:34]
34 D L X : What if, as some pilots on this board have suggested, a pilot didn't find it funny, and refused to do the command the kid gave? These things are time
35 SPREE34 : No, he was not. This very statement indicates you have no idea of the definition of "departure clearance". You do not understand what you are talking
36 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Departure clearances? Didn't know he was working clearance delivery too, WOW combined local and clearance delivery....certainly isn't time then to be
37 2H4 : The Aeroflot example would only be analogous if the controller positioned himself in such a manner that his intervention would take significant time
38 SPREE34 : I have covered this one twice. See Reply #29. There is no comparison with one exception. Both events involved a Father and Son. Beyond that, there is
39 2H4 : I think this has already been explained, but in short - there are a lot of potential mistakes in the Aeroflot example that can become irrecoverable b
40 SPREE34 : Another ill-informed post. Go read the NTSB investigation. Neither the helicopter or Piper were receiving ATC services at the time of the collision.
41 Post contains images D L X : What if the controller didn't notice the mistake? Or, what if the pilots receiving the command chose not to play along? The pilot in the SU case neve
42 FX1816 : Well it was on a runway that was used ONLY for departures which is the case at most airports with multiple runways that are of this size. If these ai
43 SPREE34 : No insult intended. Statement of fact. The controller in the tower did not have jurisdiction over the airspace in which the event occurred. Again, no
44 Peterjohns : Do not know (or care) what OJTI is, I am not an air traffic controller. I guess resorting to ATC-specific jargon is the only choice left when you run
45 SPREE34 : FX, the controller in question would not have ID'd either of the aircraft. This was VFR Tower. The controller in question had no RADAR Airspace assig
46 SPREE34 : Yep. Almost as dangerous as 2 IPs in the same airplane IFR. And, this will really confuse some folks.
47 Mir : First of all, the runway wasn't being used for landings, so no chance of a go-around - let's dispense with that possibility. Let's say there was a pi
48 Post contains images FX1816 : Oh i know i was just being sarcastic because I'm getting burned out dealing with people who continue to make ridiculous arguments. You know I persona
49 2H4 : If such a setback occurred and was directly attributable to the kid being a kid, sure. But any controller...chief or trainee...can make a mistake lik
50 Post contains images Mir : You know that "Check for new replies" button at the bottom of the thread? Yeah, I didn't hit that. -Mir
51 Post contains images FX1816 : Hey no problem just didn't want the left coast to be left out!! FX1816
52 Post contains images P3Orion : Complacent? You come to O'Hare and tell me I'm complacent when I am working Plan X North Local and getting my brains bashed in while working arrivals
53 pink77W : Andy, I know you didn't ask me if I was even old enuf to be an ATC. !!! Seems like one need not be too old.
54 P3Orion : Pink77W, The dangerous, unsafe and complacent controllers are still waiting for your answer about your knowledge of ATC. I feel comfortable speaking f
55 FX1816 : Thank you!!! I hope this finally drops this subject but it is annoying to have people tell you that you're wrong and yet have know knowledge or exper
56 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Isn't the object to land arrival traffic? Never a vector to tight, the tower will take care of it! Please do, no worries here. Or when some tell you
57 Post contains images FX1816 : Hahaha that was good!!!! Exactly, they could easily take care of it!!! FX1816
58 XFSUgimpLB41X : It's the know-it-alls-that-don't-know-it-all on this site that have run off many of the pro pilots as well. I used to post here frequently until the
59 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Thanks very much for those words, we really appreciate. And I completely am grateful for all the pilots who are excellent aviators and have saved my
60 Post contains images SPREE34 : Rat Bastard. Ahhhh, somebody with knowledge who understands. Thank you. Thank you very much. Standby for attacks, you.......you ....controller backer
61 Post contains images Peterjohns : I have always experienced the aviation community as being a big family. Nice to be a part of it. Thanks P3, FX, IAH,SPREE,XFSU
62 FX1816 : Thank you too fellow ATC-ers!!! FX1816
63 D L X : Because that's what safety is, right? Guarding against the what-ifs. It's when we don't consider all the what-ifs that a preventable accident occurs.
64 pink77W : P3, correction, he asked for "ALL" my knowledge. I never said you or anybody Else was wrong. I was playing devils advocate. If I had a kid do my job f
65 IAHFLYR : Speaking for myself and myself alone, I took nothing you posted personally at all. However, I will get upset when someone who sits outside the glass
66 SPREE34 : You haven't heard criticism until you've heard controllers rank on each other. It can get brutal.
67 XFSUgimpLB41X : 1. Try grammar. A complete lack thereof doesn't exactly help you make your point. 2. I was a flight instructor. Many times I would have someone very
68 Post contains images P3Orion : Thank you for the kind words. I know it was not personal, and I am certainly not above criticism, ask my teammates. IAHFLYR is correct, you must have
69 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Home Run! I was only joking! So has anyone heard what type of disipline the dude and FLM are in for as yet? It sure didn't help that the media did it
70 FX1816 : Oh no I don't get bothered by criticism at all if it's from people that have the right to criticize me, ie the people that have been there before. Ye
71 FX1816 : Yeah no kidding, was the FLM suspended immediately too, or did they just have a CIC in charge??? I too would like to know what happens with these guy
72 Mir : They kind of are, actually, because they disregard the specific conditions that prevailed at the time, instead choosing to look at one situation thro
73 pink77W : XFSU If grammar is my weak point, then my argument doesn't need help. It's not about me, it's not about grammar, It's about doing your job to a certai
74 FX1816 : This has been said quite a few times but, THE KID DID NOT DO HIS DAD'S WORK!!!! Not sure how much more clear you need it to be. He literally repeated
75 XFSUgimpLB41X : Unfortunately in regards to your argument.... your grammar (or lack thereof) is your strongest point. Get my drift? Take a step back and look at what
76 SPREE34 : Why? Tell me why, and I don't care what grammar you use to do it. That question has been answered ad nauseam. May I suggest you review the thread, wh
77 AirCalSNA : Sorry if this is repeating an old question ... For you ATC professionals among us: Are tower controllers allowed to bring family members into the towe
78 P3Orion : It depends on the policy of each individual facility; but, generally, for family members, you just advise (ask) the Supervisor or Operations Manager
79 AndyinPIT : At my last facility we didn't even really need permission. My wife and kids brought me dinner all the time. Granted I never let my 2 year old scream
80 AndyinPIT : The only reason I am is because it was just another pointless memo I had to read and sign off on....
81 rafaelyyz : The only thing the ATC know-it-alls on this thread demonstrated is an exorbitant lack of common sense. That in itself is worrisome. You expect a steri
82 pink77W : Spree, why? Are you not embarrassed that a child was directing Traffic at JFK? There is no excuse. The minute you make an argument You miss the point.
83 IAHFLYR : Common sense, period! Why? Those who understand the system, that leaves out the media, some a.netters, and some management groups at times, this is n
84 pink77W : FX18 That is his dads work!!!!!!!!!!!
85 pink77W : IAH I didn't have my child direct traffic at JFK Or defend someone who did for that matter My common sense is just fine.
86 pink77W : XFSU No I don't get your drift And if my argument is wrong Point it out, correct it. Assertions you make are weak I think you can do better
87 XFSUgimpLB41X : This line right here shows a total disconnect with the way things work. You're on an aviation website. Sit back and learn! Your assumptions that stan
88 Mir : I don't expect a sterile cockpit at all times, only during periods of high-workload. During periods of low workload, it's okay to relax a bit. If peo
89 pink77W : XFSU I knew all that
90 IAHFLYR : The bottom line here is this, there was no danger in what happened at JFK. It was a very controlled situation where nothing was requiring immediate ac
91 XFSUgimpLB41X : This is key and has been repeated multiple times.
92 pink77W : 1, I have the utmost respect for ATCs 2. I understand the dad was there and no danger per se 3 My job is exceedingly dangerous. 4 Last year I was call
93 Post contains images IAHFLYR : 1. Thank you, then believe us. 2. All true and no per se. 3. Be safe then always. 4. I don't have to deal with that unfortunate experience. 5. I've t
94 rafaelyyz : Good grief. Really? Say one thing and do another? That doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence in the profession. "Let's not listen to our employer
95 IAHFLYR : Explain that staement please. Just because you don't agree with what the employer says in a statement, it doesn't mean you don't follow the guideline
96 D L X : I'm not challenging that, but what my point was, wouldn't you think that the non-controllers who are on this site still know quite a bit more than th
97 Post contains images FX1816 : To get on my facility you would also need to clear the USAF security. The problem is that maybe you understand a little bit about ATC but most on her
98 Mir : Would hardly be the first time that some members of a workforce don't believe that their employer has the right mindset when it comes to policy. -Mir
99 Peterjohns : I think I have to throw in something again. There are persons in our control facility all the time. They could be media/TV guys, who are making a rep
100 rafaelyyz : For instance, your employer says one thing, and you do something opposite of it. Well, clearly, from the FAA statement itself it appears there is a p
101 Post contains images cuban8 : I neither want to know nor compare myself to the average joe. That's why I come here instead of reading the latest news gossip regarding this event.
102 Sankaps : Sorry if my use of the word "complacency" strikes a raw nerve. It must really be hurting when your own unions and the FAA use the similar words, alon
103 peterjohns : Please make that your personal opinion and not sound so matter of fact.
104 Post contains images rafaelyyz : C'mon don't hold back, put it on youtube Let us be the judge and jury.
105 Sankaps : Of course, otherwise I would have quoted sources for this too. Like the majority of discussions on both sides of the debate, this is personal opinion
106 IAHFLYR : Sorry pal, that is not the case nor ever mentioned, but you certainly don't have to agree with the policy just follow it. Again, I have yet to see an
107 SPREE34 : Who are you referring to? No. They (netters) know a lot of the jargon, picked up here or on a scanner. That makes them harder to explain something to
108 SPREE34 : Question all you want. Controllers live with questions all their career. Their actions are all recorded, including the RADAR and keyboard. We know th
109 P3Orion : Then why are people fighting tooth and nail with the controllers and airline pilots on this thread. We all agree it was poor judgement. It should end
110 Sankaps : On the contrary, we are all expressing our views, reactions, opinions, and judgment based on the facts as reported and recorded (and audible to anyon
111 Post contains links SPREE34 : More knowed www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/4738535/ Very true. If you form the opinion that something benign was dangero
112 pink77W : Spee Wbo was watching the child ? If the dad, then who was watching the airplanes? Talk about mindless
113 Post contains images D L X : I do! All I'm saying is that you're in an industry, like mine, where image and public perception matter. I understand that from your experienced pers
114 SPREE34 : You either choose, or are unable to see reality. The dad was watching the kid, clock, runway, intersecting taxiways, wind indicators, ASDE (if it was
115 rafaelyyz : Did you read the FAA press release? It's on their website, under "news". Some of what it says: “This lapse in judgment not only violated FAA’s ow
116 Sankaps : And Randy Babbitt is a former airline pilot (flew for Eastern for 25 years) and a former President of ALPA. And he is not the only pilot or air traff
117 D L X : Let's be totally fair though. The FAA's charge is to promote aviation commerce in addition to safety. That's why they are often at odds with the NTSB
118 P3Orion : Well said. I said this in private, but I will share with everyone. Next time you fly into ORD, look up towards the Tower and wave. I will wave back a
119 D L X : Monday night. I'll be in the OZ 744.
120 Post contains images 2H4 : It seems to me there are two separate arguments going on here....and it seems to me they are getting mixed up and blended into one. Argument 1: The JF
121 FX1816 : I think that is quite a fair assessment of the situation going on in this thread. FX1816
122 SPREE34 : Gee, thanks for the advise. I spent 25 years working for them (FAA). I try to avoid the place now. Well put. Excellent! Thank you![Edited 2010-03-09
123 XFSUgimpLB41X : Obviously multi-tasking is not part of your line of work... Without exceptional situational awareness and multi-tasking capability, you cannot even b
124 AirCalSNA : Well said. To sum up: whether it was unsafe or not doesn't matter ... what Mr. Duffy did was unprofessional.
125 mariner63 : This whole ordeal is complete nonsense. I am not going to state the obvious about this event since just about everyone knows about it. That thing that
126 pink77W : xfsu using multi tasking as an excuse for babysitting A child while directing traffic at JFK is beyond Laughable, No I don't multitask at my job, At l
127 Sankaps : Ah.. some more complacency. I guess the numerous crashes that has non-sterile cockpits as a contributing factor (including Colgan 3407 in Buffalo, Co
128 2H4 : The child wasn't directing traffic. The child was repeating what he was told to say. Apples and oranges. You seem to be having trouble understanding
129 SPREE34 : Sorry. I'm only up to Section 2. Terms of Reference. Theres a pretty cool stick figure thingy here you might like. Fig 1-2-1 Divergence. It also has
130 ThirtyEcho : The risk was not to safety but to what happened once the press go hold of this incident. All of a sudden, you have Scary Mary running around the barny
131 Post contains images 2H4 : Sad but true.
132 XAAPB : From the other topic that was closed abou the language, here in Mexico City I've heard many times BA pilots saying "Mexico Tower buenas tardes" as wel
133 SPREE34 : As controllers would say, you have the flick. Great, and TRUE post.
134 Mir : Since you seem eager to compare ATC to your job, I have to ask: what is your job? What does your job entail? Your profile lists your occupation as "t
135 Sankaps : I fly for a a living. Top level FFP at all three Global Alliances. Up in the Air could be about my travel life, except most of my travel is internati
136 Post contains images 2H4 : This is the first time I've ever heard this phrase used to describe the act of sitting in back! By your logic, I suppose I can claim to be an authori
137 Post contains images Sankaps : Hmmm.... I guess tongue-in-cheek phrasing (along with a touch of irony) is lost on some? Sayonara, Sankaps.[Edited 2010-03-09 13:04:47]
138 Post contains images AAEXP : This is what I have been saying the whole time: Only specialists and in-siders should be allowed to talk about any given subject. We really do not wa
139 2H4 : Ah, if you were joking, I missed that. Apologies. Your later phrase suggested that you claim to have a full understanding of complacency with regard
140 kinglobjaw : To all the folks that support this controller and the kid. I am 20 years old and an Aviation Student. My Mom is a professional dentist/professor at a
141 2H4 : Completely and totally different than the JFK situation. The actions you describe require actual muscle memory and physical technique. They also requ
142 Post contains images FX1816 : Sorry King but that is NOT at all analogous to this story and to think it is, in your own words, "there is seriously something wrong with you." Oh an
143 2H4 : Amazing how people with no ATC experience actually think they know your job better than you. Thanks for sticking around here despite having to deal w
144 Post contains images AAEXP : That's an interesting thought, but do we really want the public to state their opinion and asking questions? These unwashed and ignorant masses that
145 FX1816 : Oh I don't mind but it is funny how many of these people have to "win the argument" in this case. I mean this is really nothing to win, people with e
146 Post contains images 2H4 : So long as the decision-makers only base policy on qualified and educated opinions, sure!
147 Post contains images AAEXP : Now, that may be asking for a lot...but one can always hope
148 Post contains images IAHFLYR : After reading the lenghty process of dental treatment and extraction, what else can we say. IMHO the thread has gone completely off the scale of ratio
149 XFSUgimpLB41X : While a valient attempt, you're making our point in regards to outsiders making analogies. A more appropriate analogy would be for you to be sitting
150 mariner63 : No offense, but that has nothing to do or is in no way related to the JFK incident. If you want a better analogy, read this. Your observing a police
151 pink77W : 2H4 If he was "only" repeating words, why is dad in trouble? MIR Yes tree worker Spree Somehow I thought you would Balk at the chance to prove me wron
152 2H4 : Because the uneducated masses are unable to understand that nobody was placed in danger, and are making such a big deal about it. Dad is in trouble b
153 FX1816 : Spree did not balk at the chance to prove you wrong, he DOESN'T need to you do a good job of it yourself. As I asked you before, show me in the 7110.
154 pink77W : Mir Yes climbing up a 100-125ft dead tree Leaning over live traffic on Los Angeles freeways And hoping to God you don't fall, hoping the tree doesn't
155 2H4 : All very respectable, but at the end of the day, you remain unqualified to judge the actions of an ATC professional doing his or her job.....much les
156 Post contains images FX1816 : Well you mean the ATC's that are just not on here right??? FX1816
157 AAEXP : Very important observation/point and that goes to the very core of this discussion: No matter whether the actions of the controller were dangerous or
158 IAHFLYR : Sure could have fooled me and a about 10 others in this thread. Who gave these six guys training on how to climb, prune, and cut trees? Who gave thes
159 indolikaa : After many previous false-starts, I'm going to make my first post. Wow. The thread title is Boy Talks to Pilots at JFK - Part 2. My response is...big
160 pink77W : xfsu I get called n the nite, because big giant trees fall on freeways In the middle of the nite, and someone has to fix it. I respect ALL ATCs. Doesn
161 FX1816 : Well from your posts that doesn't seem so obvious. That is what I call back tracking. What attitude does it convey??? Every post in here you have mad
162 pink77W : IAH Lots of people gave the six guys training. Some of it in 1974!! Tons of danger involved Of course.... Just because I disagree with anyone Doesn't
163 luv2cattlecall : This incident makes me worry about the future of our beloved Channel 9.
164 rafaelyyz : He didn't though, he just stated his opinion. Now you're the one twisting people's comments. You only know this because looking in hindsight, nothing
165 XFSUgimpLB41X : The fact (fact!) is that nothing bad could have happened. It has been hashed and rehashed over and over again by the people that do this stuff and wo
166 2H4 : No, I know this because the actions that took place and the effectiveness of corrective action is no different than when a trainee is at the mic. Oh,
167 AirCalSNA : Without the cuteness factor there would have been nothing to discuss. Duffy would already be collecting unemployment.
168 Mir : Okay, that helps a bit. Sounds like your work, much like the dentist who a poster tried to compare a controller to, involves a lot of physical manipu
169 FX1816 : You know this how??? His headset would override the, most likely, handset that his son was using in mid sentence. There was NO risk at all. Well yeah
170 rafaelyyz : All this time I thought they were looking at computer or radar screens, but it's really crystal balls that they're gazing at. Well foretelling the fu
171 SPREE34 : How does one measure the arrogance and ignorance in this one? Anyone? Is there a scale of magnitude in the universe that could indicate the degree of
172 SPREE34 : One down. Keep the faith boys. The facts are winning.
173 FX1816 : Yay one down!!! Just keep it up sometimes the truth WILL win and it hurts!!!! FX1816
174 indolikaa : When I was A LOT younger, some other teens and I got to visit an air traffic control center in Albuquerque (I think it's called an ARTCC; it's located
175 pink77W : You can be belted into a tree all you want If the tree gives out, your going for a ride. Spree, you wouldn't be the 1st one to say I Have no business
176 Pellegrine : Since when did "take your kids to work day" equal let your kids do your job? Nurses and doctors may take their kids to work...but they don't let them
177 pink77W : Thursday I fly Alaska to Maui!!!!!!!! Can't wait.
178 indolikaa : Quoting Pellegrine: "I don't doubt that a lot of the comments in here sticking up for him are due to the fact that many of you work in the aviation in
179 ThirtyEcho : Me either. Sadly, it is time to lock this thread. I have flown in the ATC system since 1959 and we have tree trimmers and dental assistants comparing
180 Post contains images FX1816 : Very good post, I liked it, now hopefully some listen to you!!! So you like showing up late to the party??? We have gone over this plenty of times an
181 Post contains images IAHFLYR : LOCK THE THREAD!! Good night now. OUT
182 Pellegrine : It's not relevant because the facts are so obvious and not open to interpretation. But, like I said, it is honorable. I think it's a good thing, peop
183 XFSUgimpLB41X : I agree.... it's run it's course. See you guys on the freqs! Happy vectors to all, and to all a good night....
184 Post contains images Sankaps : No one says they know the job better than you do. But they do know bad judgment when they see it. Letting your 9-year old issue ATC instructions at a
185 ThirtyEcho : If the moderator won't lock it then just boycott it. No more responses.; do not respond to further transmissions. Adios.
186 757luver : Thats been my problem with this situation from the get go. There needs to be accountablity when rules get broken and that don't seem to be happening
187 cuban8 : I think most members already agree's with you regarding the judgement part. As far as I understand, we have different opinions when it comes to the s
188 Post contains links Cysafan : This just the same stupidity as the 1991 Aeroflot tragedy. The son of a pilot in the A310 pulled the plane slightly harder to disengage the autopilot.
189 rolfen : I did, and I could not imagine doing anything out of the ordinary. I am no pilot, but as I pilot I think my job would be to fly the plane, and not to
190 cuban8 : If you haven't done it already; do read earlier post's (where this event has been discussed). Please let me know how talking on a radio and flying an
191 Sankaps : If there is a possibility that it may unsettle you, that is a form of distraction and is to be avoided. And while you may obrey the instructions even
192 pink77W : Sankaps Boycotting this thread is simple They don't have a leg to stand on for thier Daycare/ATC.
193 AndyinPIT : Agree to disagree and move on.
194 Post contains images rolfen : Ich komme ! (PS: non-standard language! Sue me!) I think the debate here is not whether what this guy did is professional or not, or even acceptable
195 SPREE34 : So, you are saying the truth of the matter is irrelevant. Interesting. The facts are not "so obvious", and they are "open to interpretation". Have yo
196 pink77W : Spree Truth and Knowledge Of Daycare Centers? You are too funny. So is it ok if Every Controller brings his/her child in For a little on the job train
197 pink77W : Controllers or Pilots Want to protest Mr Duffys suspension? Be a man, bring your kid to work and let him Talk on the freq.!!!!!! Non of this Adios sma
198 SPREE34 : When are you going to be ready for meaningful dialogue? "What's good for one is good for all". What does that mean? Well, at least, what are you tryi
199 SPREE34 : Still not interested in thoughtful dialogue I see. Or, is it something deeper? Another thought. Perhaps you aren't capable of thoughtful dialogue, an
200 alwaysontherun : I would like to know what the ATC-people on here that defend Mr. Duffy think that should happen to him, if they don´t boycott this thread, that is…
201 peterjohns : So this Forum is clearly devided into two sections. I have heared all the pro and cons about the case and I think everyone has made their point. I hav
202 SPREE34 : Nothing here to see. Media Hype at it's finest.
203 FX1816 : The thing is, what we ATC's are saying is not opinion but FACT, there was NO safety issue. Thin skinned prima donnas??? That shows you have to FACTS
204 P3Orion : I feel a Letter of reprimand, along with a stern lecture from both the JFK ATCT Air Traffic Manager and the Hub manager, for the Controller and Superv
205 SPREE34 : Oral admonishment at most. Removed from file in 1 year. The idiot media can have punishment to report. That permits them to save face in their strugg
206 pink77W : Spree Newsflash If you are a brain surgeon If you are a coal miner If you are a fighter pilot If you are a prison guard If you are a drug dealer If yo
207 Sankaps : Sheer stupidity refers to the act, not the person. The person showed poor judgment and violated ATC regulations. If one has to "think to see facts",
208 wjcandee : I have a different view of this than pink But I enjoy his writing style Clear and concise Works for me
209 SPREE34 : Which ones? You say this a lot. Quote us what regs from which order, handbook, or CFR publication. You said it. Back it up. No back peddling, evasive
210 Sankaps : I dont care which one! You have the book, you look it up. I am quoting the FAA adminstrator. If there isn't a regulation (highly unlikely) preventing
211 alwaysontherun : A question: don´t ATC controllers have like a handbook that states all responsibilities whilst on duty? If that´s the case, is there no rule that s
212 SPREE34 : Apparently you do. You refer to them regularly. I rest my case.
213 Sankaps : You didn't have one to begin with. Are you saying you are 100% positive there is no regulation requiring ATC instructions to be issued only by qualif
214 Mir : I'm not sticking up for him just because I'm involved with the industry. I'm sticking up for him because I know that there are some safety issues in
215 FX1816 : I like how you twist words, you are very good at it. Show where I said Violating regulations = nothing happened?? I said Nothing happened JUSTIFYING
216 Post contains images FX1816 : Well how do you propose developmentals talk to airplanes, they are not yet certified to talk to them?? FX1816
217 alwaysontherun : Therefore the word "competent person" springs to mind. A trainee is not qualified (yet), but he / she is trained to do this job and the purpose of th
218 SPREE34 : I did. I do. You can deny reality all you want. It will not relieve you of the responsibility you have taken on with the assertions you have made. I
219 Post contains images AAEXP : [ Is this really about "teams" and "winning"
220 XFSUgimpLB41X : Considering uneducated (that think they are educated) yahoos are all over this place trying to crucify a controller for something completely safe....
221 indolikaa : Quote alwaysontherun: "I would like to know what the ATC-people on here that defend Mr. Duffy think that should happen to him, if they don´t boycott
222 SPREE34 : Is this really a serious question? I'll reply as though it is. In this case, let's call the team Truth. Assertions concerning safety of flight have b
223 wjcandee : The mere fact that the political appointees talk about how this is a "lack of judgment" and "not reflective of the professionalism" blah blah blah is
224 Post contains images FX1816 : You understand sarcasm right??? It shouldn't have been but that is the way it became with the controllers/pilots v/s those who have NO experience in
225 Post contains images SPREE34 : Spot on. You'd win the bet. Hey Sank. How's that Section 4 research going?
226 Post contains images AAEXP : I don't remember if it is here or on FlyerTalk that there is a posting alert saying: "Take the high road and others will follow" Seems to be somewhat
227 SPREE34 : Good post. Thank you for the reminder.
228 alwaysontherun : I do, thank you for asking………. Do you? There´s no point getting snarky with me, I am not arguing with you. I just wonder how a person who did
229 AirCalSNA : Interesting if there's no rule disallowing a controller to have someone else come in and do his job for him. But even so, certain rules are either im
230 AirCalSNA : Thought I would do a quick bit of legal research on firing of air traffic controllers for poor judgment and to protect the public perception that air
231 SPREE34 : You would be amazed at the number of Mediation Board hearings the FAA goes through, and loses. While this guys actions may not support the image the
232 sankaps : Not needed, as AirCalSNA has put it nicely... whether ot not the rule is printed, some rules are implicit. This guy and his supervisor would not be s
233 SPREE34 : Interesting read. Drug and Alcohol testing eliminated this type of situation for the most part, in a career field that already had a fraction of the
234 AirCalSNA : I think you're right about the specifics of that case, but the overarching public policy concerns would appear to apply with even greater force today
235 SPREE34 : I really think you are really evasive, and so far in life it's worked for you. I don't play that way. AirCalSNA did some good research. You should tr
236 SPREE34 : Yep.
237 railker : pink77W: Your method of writing. Hurts my brain very much. But also proves to be amusing. I have only read. About half of this board so far. But I do
238 IAHFLYR : Excellent post. Your thought is correct, immediate action could have taken place if needed. Again, I don't agree with the judgement of the controller
239 FX1816 : Bingo!!!! This whole situation was blown up because of the media which in recent years has lost all touch with reality. I was originally going to go
240 railker : Very true. Because there is always the unforseen. Like someone said earlier, the kid may have understood the seriousness of the situation, but perhap
241 Post contains images IAHFLYR : Some of us are very easily entertained, especially, well you have already figured it out I see!
242 AirCalSNA : What is interesting about the situation is that persuasive arguments can be made on both sides, and the emotions obviously run high because of the sta
243 Post contains images railker : Well, I guess after two threads worth of ramble and endless bickering and bantering, a simple observant comment's like a long island iced tea.
244 SPREE34 : They weren't. A point that can't be made often enough.
245 AirCalSNA : Perhaps, but the public's perception that passengers were possibly imperiled or could be in the future is likely far more important to the ultimate d
246 SPREE34 : Yep. Good thing there are actual laws to cover what punishments can actually apply.
247 XFSUgimpLB41X : And here is the crux of the situation.... it doesn't matter what the facts are, just what you think the facts are. I seem to recall an event in a lit
248 FX1816 : No they CANNOT, you cannot argue FACTS v. OPINION in this case. Where do you get this nonsense, Duffy did NOT lose his job I don't know how many time
249 pink77W : rail If I were you , I wouldn't rent out space in my grape That cheaply. I don't understand 1. If he didn't break a rule, why suspend him? 2. If he di
250 AirCalSNA : Oy ... the word "stakes" refers to the potential outcomes. From our friends at dictionary.com: "a personal or emotional concern, interest, involvemen
251 Post contains images FX1816 : Well I wasn't being over enthusiastic just agreeing with your point. 1. Because an investigation would be done to see whether or not something had be
252 FX1816 : I know what the word means but you didn't use it in proper context if you want to get nit picky about it. You said..... What stakes are involved for
253 pink77W : the notion that immediate action if nessecary Could of taken place, Completely negates "Muphey's Law" What if you have an emergency aircraft and 1 a k
254 Post contains images FX1816 : Well I don't even know where to begin with this one. By the way who is Muphey??? 1. What if a certified controller throws up on a keyboard??? 2. What
255 pink77W : Dumb question here Are Controllers Govt. employees? I think they are, if so I would be shocked If this guy gets. Canned I'm leaving for Maui in the mo
256 Mir : I too understand the concerns, which is why I (and others) have explained why there is nothing to be concerned about. I (and others) have done so cal
257 Post contains images P3Orion : Fellow Controllers, why are you wasting your time with pink77W and Sankaps? They are not worth the effort. We all know the truth. Safety was not compr
258 pink77W : FX18. News Flash The controller is suppose to be there MIR I knew that, the system is set up that way not set up for a kid. Some times you guys are Ve
259 railker : Man, I wish I had a grape to rent out ... or space for that matter. He didn't break a rule by speaking on the frequency, I'm sure (though not 100%) t
260 indolikaa : Quoting P3Orion: "Fellow Controllers, why are you wasting your time..." I know! I know! I can answer this one! Yay me! Pride. Pride in a job well done
261 pink77W : P3 "these idiots" Your level of intelligence is stunning
262 railker : Still seems to be higher than yours. I do believe he has the advantage -- he can form coherent sentences and paragraphs and lines of thought.
263 Post contains images FX1816 : Oh I'm good at E10, I love the crazy military traffic we have all over R2508. Uh, duh. That's why I used a sarcastic smiley face at the end of it. Yo
264 Pellegrine : Yes I am saying it is largely irrelevant, and this incident was largely a non-issue. Moving on to more important things... A monkey can listen to the
265 XFSUgimpLB41X : TAAAAA DAAAAA!!!! We have yet another swing and a miss at an analogy. Tell me Pellegrine, can you tell me the rediculous way you missed like so many
266 AndyinPIT : At least he can form a normal sentence. You really just need to stop talking because you're digging yourself into a hole. Hey on your flight, why don
267 railker : Very true, it doesn't take specific technical knowledge to know your engine's on fire. But it does take that knowledge to know if it's an uncontrolle
268 FX1816 : No "GOD Complex" here!!! We can take the criticism but from people who do not understand the big picture here, well that is kind of hard to deal with
269 Mir : That's pretty well put, actually. This happens all the time, and it's part of being a baseball player. But if Derek Jeter has a bad day, nobody comes
270 Post contains images IAHFLYR : And to expand you what FX1816 mentioned, Pellegrine should take a look at Reply 65, second paragraph and Reply 68, both which address the thick skin
271 FX1816 : Being a life long avid baseball fan I know that, what my point was.... That there is no comparison between my example and the JFK incident but how ca
272 Post contains images herc4ever : My job, law enforcement is not in aviation, but I work do work around aviation on a daily basis. As I am an enthusiest, I often, during periods of dow
273 indolikaa : Quoting Pellegrine "One thing I notice in threads like this is how defensive many people within the industry get when criticized by "outsiders". It se
274 pink77W : FX18 You can mock me, But somehow you can't answer me! mocking someone is a clear Example of losing the argument A Classical false argument It's calle
275 SPREE34 : Experience and common sense stated here. Thank you, Sir. It will be immediately dismissed by X_______________, X______________, X_______________, and
276 Post contains images SPREE34 : Figures. You trying to call someone out on not answering. How's that Section 4 reading coming? Got an answer for US yet?
277 757luver : Be looking for me on Friday, I'll be sure to wave. I'll be on UA6655 flying in and UA7451 going out. Just don't put us into a holding pattern or give
278 sankaps : I think one of the reasons the debate has become so heated and emotional on this thread is that it is largely a debate between a selection of ATC pers
279 Post contains images cuban8 : Bring some over here. I'll be happy to hear their point of view!! Until then; can someone who actually feels this was a BIG deal, tell me what kind o
280 sankaps : I wish I could bring them over here! But at least one can read their views there. An example of a comment on that thread: "Well...i'm an air traffic
281 Post contains images Pellegrine : I'm afraid I can't, I'm sure you will bring me up to speed quickly. Thank you kindly in advance. That's just the thing. People are going to freak out
282 SPREE34 : Para. 2-4-5. AUTHORIZED TRANSMISSIONS Transmit only those messages necessary for air traffic control or otherwise contributing to air safety.
283 Mir : Handle the emergency. Have someone else handle the kid. Simple as that. I would as well, but I'm of the mindset that you can't really take your job s
284 sankaps : Having fun shuld not extend to sterile environment, high pressure situations. A pilot cannot take a child into the flight deck during take off even i
285 SPREE34 : Just can't get it right can you? You have quoted Mir's words from post #283 , yet show me as the quoted poster from post # 282. Para. 2-4-5. AUTHORIZ
286 Post contains images sankaps : What to do, even the a.net editor is gunning for you! Stay cool dude, don't let the pressure get to you. Curious why there is no comment on my observ
287 Post contains images cuban8 : Since when can a pilot not take a child into the flight deck during take off??? I've had (in 2009) about 10-15 children during take off and/or landin
288 SPREE34 : Pressure? LMAO. You don't pack the goods to create pressure here, just post information that requires knowledgeable replies. No lost "Cool" here man.
289 SPREE34 : Quote the appropriate person. Attention to Detail. Seems simple enough to me.
290 rafaelyyz : Just to ruffle some know-it-all ATC feathers, and to keep this discussion going because we all know everyone wants to see this discussion going and go
291 Post contains images sankaps : Don't know if you fly for a commercial airline and which part of the world you fly in; however it is certainly not permitted on regular scheduled com
292 SPREE34 : Change "should" to "shall", and you probably have the wording that will be added to Section 4 in the next update. There will also be a disclaimer tha
293 Post contains images sankaps : Dude, FAA Order 7110 is meant for persons providing air traffic control. Instructions contained within are for the use of air traffic controllers.I t
294 Mir : "Best judgement" is a difficult-to-define term. For me, if you can say that you'll be able to maintain normal levels of safety while doing something,
295 sankaps : Mir, I respect your inputs, having seen them over the years at a.net. However I think there is very little wiggle room here regarding the judgment is
296 AlaskaATC : I think we all can agree his best judgement was lacking when letting his child talk on a frequency that is monitored by many people throughout the day
297 AAEXP : Interesting, "best judgement" would in legal terms imply to me that we are talking about a very high standard/threshold.
298 sankaps : But not every pilot and controller in general agrees as pointed out earlier. Curiuosly, no comment at all on reply #280 above where I point out an ex
299 SPREE34 : Subjective at best. However, I'm elated to see you found our book.
300 Post contains images sankaps : SPREE, I have you to thank for it. I see the vehement argumentation that is was not a violation of Order 7110 has now been watered-down to a somewhat
301 SPREE34 : I recall the 25th anniversary of an ATC facility. 1987-89, somewhere around then. The facility I was in had a big shindig. A local politician was perm
302 AAEXP : SPREE, this is definitely a "catch all" provision that gives quite some room for interpretation and therefore is "subjective" in nature. But now at l
303 SPREE34 : Not at all. 2-4-5 is stated in a regulatory, affirmative context. It is not subjective, or open to interpretetion. 1-1-1 addresses the purpose of the
304 SPREE34 : Agree with you completely. Knowing the agency's track record, they will lose and waste money.
305 rafaelyyz : That's not at all certain. The only argument here would be against a harsh punishment. No one in their right mind would defend a position that says i
306 sankaps : No, this was simply using good judgment (unless the local politician was a 9 year old kid). And am sure was pre-planned and all participants were inf
307 sankaps : Agree completely. And this is not just "talking", this is issuing ATC instructions (including take-off clearances)!
308 SPREE34 : Or, any punishment at all. MSPB will expect FAA to clearly show an Order was violated. We have discussed that here sufficiently. While the Judgement
309 FX1816 : And here is why it IS up to interpretation, "for use by PERSONS providing air traffic control services." Where does it say AUTHORIZED??? FX1816
310 Mir : True, but that's bad judgement from a PR standpoint. The 7110.65 is not about PR, it's about keeping airplanes safe, so it really shouldn't enter int
311 rafaelyyz : I'll go with a stern look and a shake of the finger and maybe a "tsk tsk". No need to mess with the guy's livelihood and career. Probably right next
312 rafaelyyz : Only if they end up pushing for a harsh punishment, or any punishment as you say, because otherwise that is an extremely dumb position to be defendin
313 Post contains links SA7700 : Given the length of this thread it will now be locked for further posts. Please continue your discussion on this topic in the following thread: Boy Ta
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