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PHL Wants More International Service.  
User currently offlineupsphl From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 66 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13771 times:

I came across an article that PHL officials want more international flights to countries they don't serve directly and with airlines that don't serve PHL now. My question is what would it take for international airlines to make a choice to serve PHL in this recession?
http://www.phlairline.com/news/03021001.html





[Edited 2010-03-14 07:25:47 by srbmod]

75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13720 times:

PHL's best chance for more international service lies almost exclusively with US. If more European airlines flew B757s transatlantic, then it might have a shot for service on other airlines. PHL recently lost AF service (replaced by DL) and will eveidently lose JM service if they end up suspending operations in April. That will leave PHL with just three foreign carriers: AC, BA, and LH.

[Edited 2010-03-07 12:59:16 by srbmod]

User currently offlinejetboy2 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13680 times:

Quoting upsphl (Thread starter):
http://www.phlairline.com/news/03021001.html

BTW the link is not working.

EDIT: It's working now. Sorry...

Quoting upsphl (Thread starter):
PHL officials want more international flights to country's they don't serve directly and with airlines that don't serve PHL now

In my opinion I think that PHL is very lucky to have the level of international service that it has now. PHL currently has service to: Amsterdam, Antigua, Aruba, Athens, Barcelona, Bermuda, Brussels, Cancún, Dublin, Frankfurt, Freeport, Glasgow, Grand Cayman, Lisbon, London, Madrid, Manchester, Montego Bay, Munich, Nassau, Oslo, Paris, Providenciales, Punta Cana, Rome, St. Lucia, St. Maarten, San Jose, Santo Domingo, Tel Aviv, Venice, and Zürich.

EDIT: forgot Ottawa & Toronto

I think that this is very respectable for a city Philadelphia's size. They are very lucky to have this level of service especially with their location (sandwiched between Washington and New York - both major air travel hubs).

They could, however, possibly get more service to Canada and Mexico.


"We need to penetrate markets directly into continents that we currently don't serve directly, get Philadelphia non-stop service whether it's into Johannesburg, or over to the Pacific Rim in Tokyo. That's what I think is going to put Philadelphia on the global map and raise our attention around the world."

I highly doubt they would get service to either of the destinations listed.



[Edited 2010-03-07 13:03:42]

[Edited 2010-03-07 13:06:45]

User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7213 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 13603 times:

PHL is not a huge international market and already has a good amount of International service. I do not see many new carriers coming in either. It all depends on US and if they want to expand more. Europe is served very nicely. All I can see is maybe Mexico, Caribbean? Seems like US will rather have CLT for that though.


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineflyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1740 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13440 times:

IIRC, didnt US just suspend service to quite a few European destinations from PHL?


727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3037 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 13272 times:

I think PHL has got a very hard job ahead of it to attract any further international carriers...

Star Alliance carriers would be the most likely carriers to start new routes to PHL to feed into US Airways' network. It hasn't helped with CO recently becoming a Star Alliance member, as I think Newark would be a far more desireable location with it being able to attract a larger maket. With exception to the few large European flag carriers not many airlines are going to want to duplicate an international route they fly to a city 80 miles up the road.

It is welcomed news the Airport Director wants to improve the airport for passengers and make it more user friendly...

I notice the director also mentions they are keen to atract an airline to fly to Tokyo, seems they are loosing faith in US Airways to ever operate this route, which they applied for what seems lke years ago!


User currently offlineCaribb From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 1639 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13136 times:

IIRC, didnt US just suspend service to quite a few European destinations from PHL?

Quoting jetboy2 (Reply 2):
EDIT: forgot Ottawa & Toronto

and Montreal


User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13097 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 5):
I notice the director also mentions they are keen to atract an airline to fly to Tokyo, seems they are loosing faith in US Airways to ever operate this route, which they applied for what seems lke years ago!

Are you confusing NRT with PEK???

If so, US returned its PEK authority to the DOT last fall which should officially lay to rest any questions about it operating PHL-PEK flights in the near future.

As for NRT, the only time US has mentioned PHL-NRT was back in 1998 when it stated that it would start PHL-NRT flights in 2000 if ALPA would permit US to codeshare with AA and UA to Japan. ALPA refused, the company backed off its PHL-NRT plans and that's the last time PHL-NRT service was ever mentioned.

Just saw that the link is working -

NRT - a legitimate possibility for PHL, though US is the only likely candidate and that is several years away.

JNB - Seriously??? Good luck with that.


User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 13056 times:

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 1):
If more European airlines flew B757s transatlantic, then it might have a shot for service on other airlines.

They don't have them to use.


User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12978 times:

Quoting Caribb (Reply 6):
IIRC, didnt US just suspend service to quite a few European destinations from PHL?

Yes, service to BHX, LGW, MXP, SNN, and ARN was suspended last fall.

LGW should be of no surprise, since US now has access to LHR and SNN would've never had service in the first place if it wasn't for the pre-open-skies rule that required airlines to serve both DUB and SNN. I think that someday US will return to MXP and ARN, particularly if SK and US can agree on codesharing.

US is going to be short on widebodies in the near-future, so PHL's best prospects of gaining international service are to cities that are within the reach of a B757, particularly *A hubs (CPH and DUS come to mind).

Closer to home, I think MEX, YQB, YHZ, or a return to YVR are all possibilities.


User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4287 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12900 times:

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 7):

As for NRT, the only time US has mentioned PHL-NRT was back in 1998 when it stated that it would start PHL-NRT flights in 2000 if ALPA would permit US to codeshare with AA and UA to Japan. ALPA refused, the company backed off its PHL-NRT plans and that's the last time PHL-NRT service was ever mentioned.

Not quite true. The proposed LGA/DCA slot trade with DL includes an NRT slot going to US. It is conceivable that this would be used eventually on A350 service to NRT. But it does seem like in the near term, this is much more likely to be a PHX route than a PHL route.


User currently onlinewn676 From Djibouti, joined Jun 2005, 1055 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12887 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 10):
Not quite true. The proposed LGA/DCA slot trade with DL includes an NRT slot going to US. It is conceivable that this would be used eventually on A350 service to NRT. But it does seem like in the near term, this is much more likely to be a PHX route than a PHL route.

They route they proposed was PHX-NRT, not PHL.



Tiny, unreadable text leaves ample room for interpretation.
User currently offlinejetboy2 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 46 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12839 times:

Quoting Caribb (Reply 6):

Quoting jetboy2 (Reply 2):
EDIT: forgot Ottawa & Toronto

and Montreal

Oops. My bad...


User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5626 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 12799 times:

If US were to make a theoretical (not rumored) switch to Oneworld, then perhaps that might shake things up a bit. PHL-NRT would make more sense for US with JAL to work with.

RE: Widebodies, not that they need or want this model, but I think a new-build 767-300ER would be a great replacement for their 762's. Not going to happen, but it would be a nice aircraft.

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12627 times:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):
If US were to make a theoretical (not rumored) switch to Oneworld, then perhaps that might shake things up a bit. PHL-NRT would make more sense for US with JAL to work with.

US has NH to work with as it stands now - arguably better since NH isn't in bankruptcy  


User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2186 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12485 times:

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 9):
DUS come to mind

DUS is not a hub for Lufthansa. On top of that it is not an airport designed for convenient connections.


User currently onlinePlanesNTrains From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 5626 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12468 times:

Quoting FutureUScapt (Reply 14):
US has NH to work with as it stands now - arguably better since NH isn't in bankruptcy

LOL! I forgot about them.  

-Dave



Next Trip: SEA-ABQ-SEA on Alaska
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5154 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12375 times:

HEY, STL wants a HUB...now what?


Next Up: STL-EWR-STL for my first mileage run!
User currently offlineca2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12385 times:

Quoting Caribb (Reply 6):
IIRC, didnt US just suspend service to quite a few European destinations from PHL?

BHX, DUB, MXP, SNN...US still operates 18 European and TLV across the pond, which is pretty decent for PHL's proximity to IAD and NYC.


User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 12129 times:

If anything, BOS needs more Europe service. It's anyways closer and it's part of "New England".  
Quoting jetboy2 (Reply 2):
I think that this is very respectable for a city Philadelphia's size. They are very lucky to have this level of service especially with their location (sandwiched between Washington and New York - both major air travel hubs).

  
New York especially, or specifically EWR. For a number of people in Philadelphia market, it'll take about 35 mins to PHL, and about 1 hr. 25 mins or so to EWR, which really isn't that bad of a trek for an international flight, which would likely be more than a 2 day trip obviously.

For an international flight, it's not too bad to take the trip up the NJTP, or via the trains, to fly from EWR. The food options at the airport in EWR are probably better. And those in DC or NY would more likely take a 1 hour flight to CLT on a mainline aircraft, and fly to international destinations from CLT if flying US. And CLT is closer to the South, Southeast, Southwest and West than PHL so it actually makes most sense for US to route pax through CLT over PHL.







[Edited 2010-03-07 17:05:27]

User currently onlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2136 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11923 times:

I think the article is correct, PHL could support more international service. I do, however, believe that PHL is pretty maxed out on flights to Europe. I think flights to Asia, Latin America, or Africa would do very well from PHL.

I think that people do not realize that PHL is one of the 8 largest metro area in the US and has a large, diverse economy that could support the flights, especially in the front cabins.

There is alot of leakage to EWR for international flights however that is only because EWR has more non-European non-stops. If PHL could increase its non-stop options, especially to Asia, the leakage would greatly decrease.

I think some targets for PHL should be:

NH to NRT or OZ to ICN
MX, AM, or US to MEX
CM to PTY
US to LOS
US or MS to CAI.

USFlyer MSP


User currently offlineca2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 11754 times:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 20):
US or MS to CAI.

Would be a much better use for the 332 when compared to running one to CUN or SJU that's for sure.


User currently offlineUSAirALB From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 3108 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 11189 times:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 20):

For some reason, I think we will see CAI service one day/



E135/E140/E145/E70/E75/E90/CR2/CR7/CR9/717/732/733/734/735/73G/738/739/752/753/762/772/319/320/321/333
User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 10724 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 15):

DUS is not a hub for Lufthansa. On top of that it is not an airport designed for convenient connections.

Well, LH says otherwise.

To that point, it is being developed as their 3rd longhaul gateway from Germany and now sees flights to ORD, MIA, EWR, and YYZ. The Rhine is a densely populated regions of Germany, with a population of over 10 million.

You may be right about the convenience of connections but if LH can find a way to make it work for their own operations then I'm sure there's a way it can be worked out.


User currently offlinePHLwok From United States of America, joined May 2007, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 10502 times:

US can still connect some dots to Star Alliance hubs in Europe:

CPH (SK)
VIE (OS)
Resumption of ARN (SK)
WAW (LO)
IST (TK)

I'd like to see Moscow, Berlin and Dusseldorf as well because I could use each, but at least in the case of DUS, flying to FRA and taking an ICE train up there isn't bad. As to Asia, I can't see more than NRT, PEK or PVG for now, and not for a while yet. It will be interesting to see whether US makes a play for more of the Middle East besides TLV anytime soon.

Obviously many of these won't happen soon if ever, but remember that regardless of the US hub, PHL is roughly the 5th or 6th largest metro area in the US (probably in 6th behind PHX at this point) so it's not really that surprising that US can make many of these routes work with the mix of O&D and connecting traffic. Also, remember that PHL supports multiple frequencies to some of the bigger Western European cities: 3 dailies to LHR (2 BA, 1 US), 3 dailies this summer to FRA (2 US, 1 LH) and 2 most days to CDG (1 US, 1 DL-5 days/wk).

You all are probably correct in that the fortunes of US are key to international service in PHL, though.


25 AADC10 : All of the second and lower tier cities want more international service. DFW, DEN and HOU want more international service as well and they are already
26 mah4546 : Philadelphia is extremely well served internationally, especially considering how it is sandwiched in between New York and D.C. One day, eventually. i
27 OP3000 : MEX, which existed before, will probably come back at some point with one of the Mexican carriers. There's an ever-fast growing Mexican community in
28 shamrock604 : Dublin is not suspended. It continues to operate daily year round, and will upgrade to 767 for the summer schedule.
29 mah4546 : MEX isn't a VFR market. Mexican communities in the U.S. tend to support flights to cities like Guadalajara and Leon, not Mexico City. I don't think M
30 Alianza : IIRC, didnt US just suspend service to quite a few European destinations from PHL? Instead of using PHL, I recently flew CM from JFK to LIM. I've chos
31 joost : Are you sure you're talking about Dusseldorf International Airport, Germany? 1) With respect to Lufthansa, it's indeed not a hub like FRA or MUC. Tho
32 Post contains images PHLBOS : US to either go under or merge w/another legacy carrier. As most of us know, the only reason WHY there are so many international flights out of PHL i
33 Airlinespotter : Dose PHL even have enough gates to expand? I thought US at one point said that they need more gates. I could be wrong but can someone help me on this?
34 luckyone : Philly is still number 5. Phoenix is 12. Yup, it's a great airport when your destination is the Rhine area! Good point. Perhaps I should have made th
35 upsphl : From what i see at the airport because i work on the ups ramp across the way and use to work for a fueling company at the airport US has all the inter
36 United787 : Do you think PHL could be a good NH 787 route from NRT? *Alliance Hub to *Alliance Hub, smallest aircraft with the range...
37 cgnnrw : Quite sad PHL isn't served by more intl carriers. I'm still mourning the loss of AF. Their A330 service was great while it lasted.
38 JFKLGANYC : As US continues to shrink possibly to oblivion and WN continues to grow, PHL will probably see the domestic/intl breakdown shift . . . away from inter
39 Post contains images PHLBOS : I think you mean bites.
40 mah4546 : In 2008, LH started to purposely create a "boutique hub" at Dusseldorf, and even advertises such. While the trans-Atlantic destinations are only four
41 usflyer msp : I actually think that A-East is all common-use (except for the AA gates). US may have exclusive leases on A-West (since they helped pay to build it)
42 SCL767 : JM will transition operations over to BW on 4/12/10. BW/JM will continue to operate MBJ-PHL daily.
43 Flytravel : If New York's 2nd international airport (EWR) was in CT, or in NY state itself also, I think the PHL sandwich issue would be less, and PHL could have
44 USAirALB : Seeing how well GIG does, I think US should focus on a South American expansion...such as CLT-LIM/BOG
45 MAH4546 : US Airways can't fly to BOG even if it wanted to. Only Chile, Peru and Uruguay have open skies. There isn't a market for US Airways to expand to Sout
46 USAirALB : How do you know they will pull out of GIG?
47 FutureUScapt : Thanks for the clarification; I wasn't sure what routes BW was going to keep from the JM network. With regards to CLT-GIG, It's way too early for eit
48 Post contains images peanuts : Maybe PHL officials should tell US to step out of StarAlliance if there is any hope for more International growth to "new continents", for PHL. Of all
49 usflyer msp : Huh? PHL is on a whole different level from those airports. PHL actually has the O/D traffic to support a large hub! PHL's potential is actually supp
50 Post contains images peanuts : Sure. All that's missing is the airline to operate it as such... To make matters worse, US playing ball with UA and CO won't help. Thanks for stating
51 FutureUScapt : Leaving the *A will drastically HURT, not help, any chances PHL has for more international flights. With the possibility for connections on both ends
52 peanuts : OneWorld may be a better fit, considering how PHL is sandwiched between EWR and IAD. Don't get me wrong, I wish PHL all the power to them. However :
53 EddieDude : Yeah, I have always wondered if US would be able to make PHL-MEX once daily with A319 service. Then again, I guess US would have already launched thi
54 LAXdude1023 : You cant really compare PHL with those. PHL is a whole hell of a lot more international of a city. Not to mention that PHL is the 5th largest metro a
55 PHLBOS : While that is probably the case, that didn't stop Parker from stupidly threatening PHL that it wasn't going to further expand internationally (mainly
56 usflyer msp : While you are correct that a hub is not a birthright, logically, why would a carrier not choose the city with lots of O/D traffic? It provides higher
57 Post contains images PHLBOS : Are we talking about carriers (plural) in general or just one carrier establishing a hub at a particular city? I'm primarily referring to the latter
58 UALWN : Actually you can ride Amtrak from Philly's 30th St. station to Newark Airport Station in 58 minutes. I'll do it tomorrow.
59 Malayil : I know its a long shot, but potentially EK could start service to PHL in a few years time since EWR doesn't seem to be on their agenda. With regards t
60 Directorguy : Much as I'd love to see a PHL-CAI in the future, there are 3 more important *A East Coast gateways that are more likely to happen-YYZ, IAD and EWR. O
61 Post contains images PHLBOS : You are aware that DL picked up the PHL-CDG route right after AF (a SkyTeam partner) pulled out, so it's not like the route is now ONLY being flown b
62 Directorguy : EK has a huge Indian network flying to 9-10 cities there, and EK captures a significant amount of USA-India traffic flying millions of pax to/from th
63 Malayil : EK is basically the national airline of India, I'm pretty sure it flies from more points in India internationally than Air India/ Indian Airlines but
64 PHLBOS : Thanks for both of your replies. The only reason why I asked was when one places their mouse/arrow on EK, a small box shows up containing the words E
65 Post contains images cesarv777 : EK has a huge Indian network flying to 9-10 cities there, and EK captures a significant amount of USA-India traffic flying millions of pax to/from the
66 OP3000 : In the metro Philly area most tend to be from Veracruz state, whose airport (VER) I believe has only one ERJ flight by CO to IAH but many flights to
67 LipeGIG : They would need just a little more premium seats if they focus on more services to deep South America. Even GIG demands more Envoy seats than the 762
68 PITrules : They added MEX-PHL/PIT/CLT in the early nineties; PHL and PIT didn't last long. However, much has changed since then (alliances, etc).
69 EddieDude : Didn't know about PIT. Thanks. I was under the impression that US's attempt at PHL-MEX in the nineties failed mostly because the planes they used did
70 mah4546 : None of them lasted long. CLT-MEX was only re-introduced around '03/'04.
71 cx340 : Which is why I wonder what MX did back in the 80's. The flew non-stop both ways with a 727. I took the flight a few times (as a kid/young teen I live
72 FutureUScapt : Are you sure they even flew CLT-MEX in the 1990s? I remember there was a direct flight from CLT-MEX via TPA, but I don't ever remember the flight ope
73 crownvic : MEX-PHL has always been rather unusual, aong with many other U.S. ciites. Dating back for for over 40 years, Aeronaves operated this route with daily
74 OP3000 : Another possible US PHL hub route could be Moscow, if at some point demand on USA-Moscow picks back up and if *A gets a significant Russian partner. T
75 olli : As far as I'm remember US never flew to CLT before the date you mention. Apart from PIT & PHL, they flew to TPA with 727 few times a week. That w
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