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Why No B6 To MSP?  
User currently offlineNWA330nut From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 117 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3633 times:

Pretty self-explanatory. I looked in the database and couldn't find any good answers so I'm going to ask you all [again].

It seems that DL has been or will eventually be moving flights away from MSP and I think that eventually it will be a "focus city" for them. I may just be too MSP-centric but I would think that it would be a good investment for JB to add a flight MSP-JFK or MSP-LGB. Does their business plan just not support the Midwest? SW is doing pretty good, so I would think that JB would follow suit. I would think it would be comparable to loads in Denver, being a comparable city. So what's the scoop?

P.S. This is my first post so try not to get all jumpy on me. Thanks.  

18 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNWA330nut From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 117 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3617 times:

Yes, I do realize that I put JB for B6. Sorry Guys.

User currently offlineaf773atmsp From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2707 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3594 times:

I'm sure DL's hub at MSP will remain very important, but I think B6 would do very well on MSP-BOS. I think its only a question of when.


It ain't no normal MD80 its a Super 80!
User currently offlineridgid727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3570 times:

Quoting af773atmsp (Reply 2):
I'm sure DL's hub at MSP will remain very important, but I think B6 would do very well on MSP-BOS. I think its only a question of when

Im sure that B6 remembers ATL very well, and MSP would be the same thing.


User currently offlineadamblang From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3543 times:

JetBlue doesn't like us in the middle of the country. Between Seattle, Denver, Houston, Charlotte, and Pittsburgh, they only serve one city (Chicago).


The views and opinions expressed here are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer or its partners.
User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1551 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3518 times:

Quoting NWA330nut (Thread starter):
P.S. This is my first post so try not to get all jumpy on me.

Welcome! I'll try...

Quoting NWA330nut (Thread starter):
It seems that DL has been or will eventually be moving flights away from MSP and I think that eventually it will be a "focus city" for them.

Why do you think that? It has over 200 mainline flights a day which is more than DTW, and it is a great east/west hub. It won't ever have the type of international service that DTW or ATL has but it doesn't need/deserve that level of service.

Quoting NWA330nut (Thread starter):
I may just be too MSP-centric but I would think that it would be a good investment for JB to add a flight MSP-JFK or MSP-LGB. Does their business plan just not support the Midwest? SW is doing pretty good, so I would think that JB would follow suit.

Both of those markets are sufficiently-served already. SY provides a low-fare presence in these markets at least in the summer (yes, I know SY serves LAX not LGB). B6 can't be compared to WN because WN can basically feed MSP from their whole network due to the ideal geographic positions of MDW, DEN, and STL. JFK and LGB would have minimal connection opportunities.

Quoting NWA330nut (Thread starter):
I would think it would be comparable to loads in Denver, being a comparable city.

Why?



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User currently offlinePHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3518 times:

Quoting NWA330nut (Thread starter):
It seems that DL has been or will eventually be moving flights away from MSP and I think that eventually it will be a "focus city" for them.

MSP has seen reductions for sure, but a lot of them are coming back it seems. RIC, BUF, ROC, ORF, BMI are all coming back this summer and places like RDU, MSY, JAX, AUS, SAT, BWI, YUL, MOT, BIS, GFK, etc are seeing or are going to see pretty decent increases this year.

I seriously doubt DL will make MSP a focus city anytime soon.


User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3596 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3513 times:

Quoting NWA330nut (Thread starter):
It seems that DL has been or will eventually be moving flights away from MSP and I think that eventually it will be a "focus city" for them.

That pretty much blows it for you.

DL has not been moving flights away from MSP (it has actually been increasing them), and Delta has already legally committed with MAC to keeping MSP a hub with over 500 flights per day until the year 2020.

You are barking up the wrong tree with your premise, so your follow-up permutations end up with no foundations.

If you want to ask if B6 could make a MSP route work? ....possibly, but your starting assumptions were waaaaay off.


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3375 times:

Quoting NWA330nut (Thread starter):

It seems that DL has been or will eventually be moving flights away from MSP and I think that eventually it will be a "focus city" for them.

As others have asked, why in the world would you make that assertion? They've reduced MSP no less than ATL or DTW post-merger.

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 7):
DL has not been moving flights away from MSP (it has actually been increasing them), and Delta has already legally committed with MAC to keeping MSP a hub with over 500 flights per day until the year 2020.

Well they've already violated that agreement then because they're nowhere near 500 daily flights now. AFAIK the amendment to the agreement was to provide no less than 400 daily flights, at least 250 of which had to be on equipment with at least 70 seats.

Jeremy


User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3323 times:

Quoting NWA330nut (Thread starter):
It seems that DL has been or will eventually be moving flights away from MSP and I think that eventually it will be a "focus city" for them. I may just be too MSP-centric but I would think that it would be a good investment for JB to add a flight MSP-JFK or MSP-LGB. Does their business plan just not support the Midwest? SW is doing pretty good, so I would think that JB would follow suit. I would think it would be comparable to loads in Denver, being a comparable city. So what's the scoop?

MSP is the second largest hub in the DL network. It is like DEN to UA or ORD to AA. DTW might be a bigger international gateway, but MSP is the bigger domestic hub.

Whereas MSP has great O/D for a city of its size, and in general, but it has shown itself to be very hard for new carriers to make big inroads into MSP, except for WN. JetBlue would have to spend big to establish itself - multiple daily flights at great discounts. I just don't know if the opportunity is worthwhile for them to make the investment against such a strong, loyal hub customer base.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlinenws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 913 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3308 times:

The WN factor may be the killer for B6 at MSP. Not only would they have to win over all the DL(NW) customers, but also the WN customers. Not impossible, but if they try it will be ATL all over again with DL and FL.

User currently offlinepeanuts From Netherlands, joined Dec 2009, 1442 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3289 times:

Yield wise MSP is very important to DL. The O/D in MSP is extremely valuable. Minnesotans know how to work and also know how to spend their discretionary income. They love to travel. They remind me a lot of Scandinavians and Dutch people. Minnesotans have low debts, make good money, and used to spent lots of it on NW, now DL.

Spirit tried to make inroads at DTW flying to BOS and such in the late 90's I think. NW made it fairly miserable for them.
B6 is no WN. DL will play ball with B6.



Question Conventional Wisdom. While not all commonly held beliefs are wrong…all should be questioned.
User currently offlineSNCntry32 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1520 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3061 times:

Quoting peanuts (Reply 11):
ield wise MSP is very important to DL. The O/D in MSP is extremely valuable. Minnesotans know how to work and also know how to spend their discretionary income. They love to travel. They remind me a lot of Scandinavians and Dutch people. Minnesotans have low debts, make good money, and used to spent lots of it on NW, now DL

There are THREE destinations that are served searionaly out of MSP to Mexico that are not even served out of ATL. The metro area has pleanty of bussiness travel even in the recssion, and they have pleanty of people willing to pay to escape the cold. Please not forget that MSP was Northwest's most profitable hub according to DOT data. Could MSP see some more reductions? Yes, but nothing under the 400 agreement, and also remeber there are a lot of unique spokes that connect VIA MSP that have proven not working thtough ATL or DTW... MOT, YWG, YQR, DLH, FAR, GFK... ETC, lots of small mid westren cities that yes, some big business do exist. MSP will never have the level of international service that DTW, ATL or JFK has, but it does very well with its 2 to 3 AMS flights, 1 NRT flight and 1 LHR flight. The future will tell the fate post 2020, but I think MSP has a very valuable future in the combined DL network.



Long Live Memphis!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3052 times:

Quoting adamblang (Reply 4):
JetBlue doesn't like us in the middle of the country.

DEN is in the middle of the country, and B6 does, in fact, serve DEN on the A concourse. Not sure what you are getting at nor where you are going with this.   



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinesimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 922 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2924 times:

Don't forget how well American did on LGA-MSP a few years ago...

User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3596 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2857 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 8):
Well they've already violated that agreement then because they're nowhere near 500 daily flights now. AFAIK the amendment to the agreement was to provide no less than 400 daily flights, at least 250 of which had to be on equipment with at least 70 seats.

You are right that the MAC agreement is for a minimum of 400 daily flights per day until 2020.

I believe that DL currently has about 500 flights per day at MSP (which is where that number popped into my head)

The only statistics I can find right now is from the MAC:

Last year there were ~1183 movements per day at MSP (down about 5% from the year before).

Divided by 2 for number of flights (one take-off and landing per flight) is 591 flights per day.

I would not think that DL flying some 82% of MSP flights is out of the question to equal 500 per day (with 91 flights by the non-DL carriers), but I am not an expert on MSP operations.

YMMV.


User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2744 times:

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 15):
I believe that DL currently has about 500 flights per day at MSP (which is where that number popped into my head)

Last Monday DL and DL Connection carriers had 437 daily flights at MSP. I don't know the exact figure for today (though I can find out) but because it's Wednesday it will be slightly lower than Monday's figures. This summer it looks that that number will approach 460-470 daily flights, of which about 220 daily flights will be on mainline equipment.

Jeremy


User currently offlineJsquared From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2737 times:

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 14):
Don't forget how well American did on LGA-MSP a few years ago...

*sigh* I miss those days of $200 roundtrip nonstops... I would certainly welcome B6 entering the market, if only to provide some competition for DL on the route as AA did. Granted I would probably never fly with them since DL would match fares and provide me with treasured Skymiles. 

And yes I know SY also does MSP-JFK, but with four flights per week leaving at odd hours, I wouldn't necessarily call it competitive or desirable. Maybe B6 could make a daily afternoon flight work if they team with a European carrier?

Quoting peanuts (Reply 11):
Yield wise MSP is very important to DL. The O/D in MSP is extremely valuable. Minnesotans know how to work and also know how to spend their discretionary income. They love to travel. They remind me a lot of Scandinavians and Dutch people. Minnesotans have low debts, make good money, and used to spent lots of it on NW, now DL.

     


User currently offlineN908AW From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 940 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2683 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 13):
DEN is in the middle of the country, and B6 does, in fact, serve DEN on the A concourse. Not sure what you are getting at nor where you are going with this.

It's pretty easy to see what he's getting at. There are several cities in the middle of the country that don't have B6 (MSP, DFW, DTW, STL, MCI, etc.). Whether or not that matters all that much remains to be seen, but the coasts are obviously B6's specialty.

Quoting NWA330nut (Thread starter):
It seems that DL has been or will eventually be moving flights away from MSP and I think that eventually it will be a "focus city" for them.

Nope. Ain't happening.



'Cause you're on ATA again, and on ATA, you're on vacation!
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