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ATL-FRA DL Stepping Up Competition With LH  
User currently offlinepqdtw From Netherlands, joined Aug 2008, 154 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 9709 times:

Interesting development going on in the ATL-FRA market. All winter, DL has switched from a 767-300ER to an A332 in the ATL-FRA market. I'm wondering if this is more a competitive strategy than a capacity issue, in that the 767-300ERs are not equipped with IFE in Economy and Delta wants to offer a more premium product to compete with LH.

Now, looking at the summer schedules, DL is putting a 77L on ATL-FRA. Obviously this is because the 77L comes into ATL and needs a 'short' rotation (as compared to long hauls like JNB and DXB) to get the most of its usage. But also, it's interesting that FRA was chosen for this short rotation above say a CDG or AMS. Looks to me like DL is really going head-to-head with LH in this market by offering its best product, i.e. Lie-flat seats.

Anyone else here think this is the strategy?

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9621 times:

Quoting pqdtw (Thread starter):
Looks to me like DL is really going head-to-head with LH in this market by offering its best product, i.e. Lie-flat seats.

Could be, but I would be more inclined to think that it is just rightsizing in the wake of the merger followed by a seasonal capacity bump. (276 seats vs. 243) If DL is really trying to place their best product on the route, there is a good chance that we will see a retrofitted 764 or 763 this winter.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9555 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9608 times:

Quoting pqdtw (Thread starter):

ATL-FRA is a very good route for Delta. IIRC when DL pulled all the 77Es off of TATL runs ATL-FRA was the last to go.

Plus the LR is only on it for a month or so then it goes to a ER.



yep.
User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5306 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 9591 times:

I'm not sure that it's really any sort of competitive response to LH. DL has always done quite well on ATL-FRA and has often flown it 2x daily in summers past. I just think they're trying to match capacity to demand. That they needed a shorter hop to utilize the 77L on didn't hurt.


Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 9377 times:
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Since they will only be flying ATL-FRA once daily this summer, could this be a reason to upgrade to a 77L/E ?

What are the average load factors on this route year round?


User currently offlineL1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 989 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 8740 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 3):
I'm not sure that it's really any sort of competitive response to LH. DL has always done quite well on ATL-FRA and has often flown it 2x daily in summers past.

ATL-FRA-ATL was actually served twice daily year-round for years until last summer!

DL14 ATL-FRA
DL15 FRA-ATL

and

DL20 ATL-FRA
DL27 FRA-ATL

So I was actually quite shocked when I realized that DL did not only suspended the CVG-FRA-CVG flight (which by the way at one point - during the DL FRA hub days of course - was served twice daily as well) but also cancelled the 2nd daily ATL flight. How times have changed.

But I'm glad seeing that DL isn't completely ignoring the FRA market.

Best regards

L1011Lover


User currently offlineca2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 8456 times:

Quoting pqdtw (Thread starter):
Looks to me like DL is really going head-to-head with LH in this market by offering its best product, i.e. Lie-flat seats.

Sorry, DL is no LH - no US carrier is. Like posted above, I'd say it's simply right-sizing the market with a 332. Odd use of a 77L this summer, however.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8252 times:

Quoting OA412 (Reply 3):
I'm not sure that it's really any sort of competitive response to LH. DL has always done quite well on ATL-FRA and has often flown it 2x daily in summers past. I just think they're trying to match capacity to demand. That they needed a shorter hop to utilize the 77L on didn't hurt.

Bingo. With CVG-FRA gone, DL needs more connecting capacity somewhere - and JFK, which has gone from 752 to 763, and ATL are those "somewheres." The southeast has strong business connections to Germany (indeed, the business connections of the region to Germany are probably stronger than those to any other country), and the need for capacity is certainly there for that reason too.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinesydaircargo From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8209 times:

Quoting pqdtw (Thread starter):
Interesting development going on in the ATL-FRA market. All winter, DL has switched from a 767-300ER to an A332 in the ATL-FRA market. I'm wondering if this is more a competitive strategy than a capacity issue, in that the 767-300ERs are not equipped with IFE in Economy and Delta wants to offer a more premium product to compete with LH.

well i can only talk about the cargo sector and there Deltas service was everything but competitive over the past few
month. maybe the A332 can improve that a bit. still nothing to compete with LH on that sector.


User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3045 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 8172 times:

Quoting pqdtw (Thread starter):
and Delta wants to offer a more premium product to compete with LH.

Also, keep in mind that these are two different markets. For most LH passengers, ATL is their final destination, having connected on LH through FRA from another city. For DL pax, ATL is a transit point to FRA, which is their final destination. I think that although they fly the same route, they aren't necessarily "competing" on it. I would imagine the O/D on ATL-FRA is a small percentage of overall pax.


User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1604 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7934 times:

Quoting catiii (Reply 9):
Also, keep in mind that these are two different markets. For most LH passengers, ATL is their final destination, having connected on LH through FRA from another city. For DL pax, ATL is a transit point to FRA, which is their final destination. I think that although they fly the same route, they aren't necessarily "competing" on it. I would imagine the O/D on ATL-FRA is a small percentage of overall pax.

That's a good point to bring up. On that note, is this why LH has a SEN lounge in ATL? I didn't realize they had until someone mentioned it on FlyerTalk a couple weeks ago, and it kind of surprised me since ATL is certainly a spoke route for LH, but I guess they must really have a good market for that single daily FRA trip.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17659 posts, RR: 46
Reply 11, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7909 times:

Quoting pqdtw (Thread starter):
Now, looking at the summer schedules, DL is putting a 77L on ATL-FRA. Obviously this is because the 77L comes into ATL and needs a 'short' rotation

From another thread, and from DL.com it looks like the second ATL/LAXNRT on the 77L has been axed, so there's your free 77L time for at least one Transatlantic trip



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7829 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 10):
On that note, is this why LH has a SEN lounge in ATL?

Carriers are much more likely to have a lounge in small outstations when those outstations see longhaul flights. AA, for instance, has lounges in BOG, FRA, PTY, and NRT.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinechootie From Germany, joined May 2007, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 6628 times:

Hi folks!!!

Let Delta try, but in the long run...... I am sure that most will fly and N-JOY the LH service.

(a given that DL frequent flyers will stay with them)

The LH product in all classes seems to be much more complete(IMO)

So let the best competitor win!!!!!



chootie
User currently offlineDavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6455 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 10):
That's a good point to bring up. On that note, is this why LH has a SEN lounge in ATL? I didn't realize they had until someone mentioned it on FlyerTalk a couple weeks ago, and it kind of surprised me since ATL is certainly a spoke route for LH, but I guess they must really have a good market for that single daily FRA trip.

BA has a lounge in ATL also, and has only one flight per day. Interestingly, no AAdmirals Club. And there is a SC in FRA, probably due to the fact it used to be a DL hub.

I think DL is right sizing the route. Further, DL probably wants as few people as possible changing plans in JFK with the drama of the runway work.

FRA may also have some government contracts, no?

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 827 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6354 times:

Quoting Davescj (Reply 14):
And there is a SC in FRA, probably due to the fact it used to be a DL hub.

There is no SC in FRA anymore. I think it was closed at the end of 2009.



The Widget Air Line :)
User currently offlinedlphoenix From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 420 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6068 times:

Quoting chootie (Reply 13):
The LH product in all classes seems to be much more complete(IMO)

The DL A330 hard product is similar to the LH hard product on the route. The 77L BE hard product is superior.

As for chosing who to fly - read the quote below

Quoting catiii (Reply 9):
Also, keep in mind that these are two different markets. For most LH passengers, ATL is their final destination, having connected on LH through FRA from another city. For DL pax, ATL is a transit point to FRA, which is their final destination. I think that although they fly the same route, they aren't necessarily "competing" on it. I would imagine the O/D on ATL-FRA is a small percentage of overall pax.

==============================

Quoting pqdtw (Thread starter):
it's interesting that FRA was chosen for this short rotation above say a CDG or AMS. Looks to me like DL is really going head-to-head with LH in this market by offering its best product, i.e. Lie-flat seats.

Anyone else here think this is the strategy?

DL offers a consistent service to LHR.
It will gain nothing from offering a better product on routes to CDG/AMS unless AF/KL with whom it has a revenue sharing agreement upgrade their hard products as well. This leaves FRA as the highest yield market where they can utilize the 77L "short hop".

DLP


User currently offlineL1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 989 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6018 times:

Quoting chootie (Reply 13):
Hi folks!!!

Let Delta try, but in the long run...... I am sure that most will fly and N-JOY the LH service.

(a given that DL frequent flyers will stay with them)

The LH product in all classes seems to be much more complete(IMO)

So let the best competitor win!!!!!

Well personally spoken I'd take DL over LH any day. DL's Y product is definitely far superior to LH's in my opinion. Especially with more legroom. And I personally prefer DL's C-Class service over LH's inconsistent service as well.

4 hours into the flight they still have the lights on on LH transatlantic flights... they simply don't get it done... They torture you with cart after cart and hours of waiting in between. And LH's C-class seats are horrible! The worst (new generation) C-class seat I've ever had the misfortune of sitting in!

DL's service is by far more efficient than LH's and really smooth compared to the hectic, chaotic and noisy LH onboard atmosphere!

Plus: Who wants to be on an Airbus A340/330 when another airline deploys a 777 on the same route! Well okay... I admit this is all personal. But I'm sure other people might look at it the same way.

Give me DL any day... and keep LH.

Go DL... glad your focus is back on FRA!


User currently offlinessides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 5947 times:

Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 6):
Sorry, DL is no LH - no US carrier is. Like posted above, I'd say it's simply right-sizing the market with a 332.

This.

LH is extremely good at competing with US airlines at their fortress hubs, and have done a great job of keeping local customers in the US market. They have done phenomenally well at some of the mid-size transatlantic US markets like DFW, SEA, ATL and IAH. I don't think Delta's move is a response to LH at all.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8481 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5824 times:

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 17):
Plus: Who wants to be on an Airbus A340/330 when another airline deploys a 777 on the same route! Well okay... I admit this is all personal. But I'm sure other people might look at it the same way.

As you say it's personal. All things being equal I'll take the much quieter, and roomier 2-4-2 across A340/A333 over the cramped 777 with 3-3-3 across, every time. I've never flown DL on a TATL route but I've done many on NW and their A333's and in the process have experienced DL's ground personel and I can tell you that there's no comparison. I find LH's service from the minute I reach the check-in counter until I get my bags at the other end to be far superior, more professional and a lot pleasant.


User currently offlineOA412 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 5306 posts, RR: 25
Reply 20, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5709 times:

Quoting chootie (Reply 13):
Let Delta try, but in the long run...... I am sure that most will fly and N-JOY the LH service.

Not really. I like LHs service, but they've both been able to coexist just fine on ATL-FRA for many, many years. I think you'll see them continue to coexist on the route.



Hughes Airwest - Top Banana In The West
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9555 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4720 times:

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 5):
So I was actually quite shocked when I realized that DL did not only suspended the CVG-FRA-CVG flight (which by the way at one point - during the DL FRA hub days of course - was served twice daily as well) but also cancelled the 2nd daily ATL flight. How times have changed.

they did move it to JFK.....but IIRC DTW-FRA got downgraded.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
From another thread, and from DL.com it looks like the second ATL/LAXNRT on the 77L has been axed, so there's your free 77L time for at least one Transatlantic trip

It is but i would wait till the upload again and see what it looks like. Delta has done this before with NRT routes. The zero it out only to change it back a day or to later. (plus I would be shocked if DL just ran a single 332 on LAX-NRT and a single 777 on ATL-NRT.)



yep.
User currently offlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4300 times:
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Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 21):

It is but i would wait till the upload again and see what it looks like. Delta has done this before with NRT routes. The zero it out only to change it back a day or to later. (plus I would be shocked if DL just ran a single 332 on LAX-NRT and a single 777 on ATL-NRT.)

  
I wouldn't be surprised to see this route go 77L vs the 332. Or perhaps run 77L daily and run the 332 4X a week. The 77L is a much more competitive product when you put it up against NH, JL, SQ, KE (J/Y) and beats UA & AA product wise.


User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9555 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4233 times:

Quoting laca773 (Reply 22):

Not only that but that is a really big cut.(for both ATL and LAX)



yep.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23148 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (4 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3919 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 21):
they did move it to JFK.....but IIRC DTW-FRA got downgraded.

DTW+CVG+JFK (i.e. all non-ATL capacity) went from 333/763/752 the last summer CVG operated to 2x763 this summer.

Total seats to FRA are down quite a bit from Delta's peak, which featured four daily flights.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
25 L1011Lover : What you mean? They moved what to JFK? I don't really understand? The FRA-JFK flight has been around ever since DL took over the route from PA in 199
26 deltal1011man : Sorry, they moved the 767 to JFK. It was on a 757
27 hypercott : Hi there, wow. I had to read your post twice -- to me what you say is rather ironic. I am a Delta Diamond Medallion (last year 135k) and a LH frequent
28 lucky777 : Well, according to seatguru, LH's much quieter and "roomier" A340/333's (31-32" seat pitch, 17-17.5 width) are actually smaller and more cramped than
29 L1011Lover : Well I can't! Especially the recline and legroom issue. If seatguru states that LH's and DL's legroom is the same (which seems hard for me to believe
30 ca2ohHP : Just how many times have you actually flown LH international service? Granted every carrier has it's "bad eggs," but those are some pretty bold state
31 L1011Lover : I fly them monthly![Edited 2010-03-11 06:22:39]
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