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TWU Asks Panel To Start Strike Clock On AA  
User currently offlinessides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4651 times:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...a.html?ocp=2#slcgm_comments_anchor

Let's try to keep this discussion as civil as possible .... although I will start by saying it will be tough for unions to get sympathy in this economic climate.


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2311 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4337 times:

I'm so disappointed in the TWU or unions doing this when jobs are a premium right now...

American's last pay proposal called for a 2.5 percent pay rate increase 18 months into the four-year contract. American also offered lump sums equal to 4 percent of annual pay when the contract is signed, 3 percent after six months and 3 percent after 30 months.The 30-month lump sum could turn into a 3 percent increase in pay rates if pay at other airlines equals or is higher than American's at that time.
How is that not enough?



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlinessides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4284 times:

I really don't know, RDU. I'm not sure about the mechanics, but I do know that AA's pilots and F/As earn more, on average, than those at any other legacy carrier -- and usually are required to work less.


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1563 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4282 times:

Because it's an inadequate increase on a concessionary contract.

My last job we took a 10% hit through concessions. In current negotiations, the company is proposing a 2% increase on current rates. Still less money than they made 9 years ago. The economy will only be in the toilet for so long. You have to plan ahead.


User currently offlineplanefreakaa From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4267 times:

they also asked for a increase in the eagle ASM from 6% to 23% which would basically make 1 out of every 4 seats eagle...it was another conession contract... the TWU contract is the only contract that keeps eagle small, the pilots, nor the F/A's have this in their contract. when do you stop giving?
in maintenance, we used to be the #2 in pay behind WN. now we are #6. american says they will keep us at # 6, but not move us up to #5, if some other airline passes us to make us #7, then they will give us a raise to take us back to #6


User currently offlineRIPCORDD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1195 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4141 times:

There lump sum comes out to a whopping $745 per year for this contract. So its not much..... Look at this
http://twulocal512.org/media/TWUSupplement3110%20Final.pdf hope this will clear some of it up. TWU controls ASM on eagle right now which in my opinion is worth more than a raise. I would just extend the contract and leave it be. Pilots control the number of seats per plane. The company and the pilots need to come up with a way for them to fly a 100 seat jet profitable this would solve a lot of those issues and protect jobs as well.


User currently offlineflyfree727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 685 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4013 times:

And lets not just focus on the pay increases.. Many time what is NOT told on here are the increases/decreases in other areas of the contract which nets out to be an overall pay cut for the employee. Most times when pay increases are "balked at" its because these pay increases are wiped out by other increases in employee contributions, such as medical and dental insurance.

AA ORD


User currently offlineworldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3908 times:

I am also quite sure that AA's ramp personnel have contributed far more productivity increases to AA than most other work groups.

AA is in a very difficult situation w/ so many contracts open and so many employee groups wanting so much but in my estimation, the TWU has already given more than most AA groups and is still being asked to give more.. while other groups are asking for even bigger increases, the TWU is fighting to hold onto a semblance of the present - let alone the past.

The next year will not be very nice at AA and there are some very good people who are getting caught in the middle of it all.


User currently offlineCrosscheck007 From Poland, joined Jan 2010, 278 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3889 times:

Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 7):
The next year will not be very nice at AA and there are some very good people who are getting caught in the middle of it all.

Yeah, like passengers AND gate agents. How are the gate/ticket agents supposed to explain to passengers that their flight was cancelled due to a lack of MTX crews or cabin crews? This is going to cause a world of hurt for a lot of innocent by-standers.    I hope these union groups are not relying on the mutual support of the other employees they will be screwing over...

Cheers,

007



Je l'attends pas un homme. J'apporte le parti, j'apporte le feu d'artifice.
User currently offlineMASTYC From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 144 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3827 times:

Quoting Crosscheck007 (Reply 8):
Yeah, like passengers AND gate agents. How are the gate/ticket agents supposed to explain to passengers that their flight was cancelled due to a lack of MTX crews or cabin crews? This is going to cause a world of hurt for a lot of innocent by-standers. I hope these union groups are not relying on the mutual support of the other employees they will be screwing over...

They should. There are times when you need to support one another.


User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2311 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3775 times:

Someone...make the case for TWU because right know I have no sympathy for them...this is ridiculous...


Our Returning Champion
User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3402 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3726 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 10):
Someone...make the case for TWU because right know I have no sympathy for them...this is ridiculous...

Why do you say that?


The proposed Scope alone for both Fleet & Maintenance makes both proposals DOA.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineCrosscheck007 From Poland, joined Jan 2010, 278 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3671 times:

Quoting MASTYC (Reply 9):
They should. There are times when you need to support one another.

There are probably thousands of non-union rampers and agents who are going to have little sympathy for them.

Cheers,

007



Je l'attends pas un homme. J'apporte le parti, j'apporte le feu d'artifice.
User currently offlineworldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3436 times:

AA mgmt is looking for evidence that their various labor groups will not support each other - and then they will systematically move to divide and conquer.

If AA's labor groups don't stand together - regardless of whether their individual cases have merit - none of them will succeed at getting what they want.

We are already seeing evidence that BA and LH labor groups and alliance partners are turning on each other - when that starts happening in the US, you can kiss whatever power labor unions have left goodbye because labor here is already working off of a weaker base than in Europe.

The issue is not whether AA's various group have justification for what they are asking... the issue is that AA can easily deal w/ one labor group at a time and nullify their effect. With the exception of the pilots, the unions representing just about every labor group can be disposed of pretty easily - another airline is just waiting to write the next chapter in the saga that includes the NW-mechanics story.


User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2311 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3230 times:

Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 13):
AA mgmt is looking for evidence that their various labor groups will not support each other - and then they will systematically move to divide and conquer.

If AA's labor groups don't stand together - regardless of whether their individual cases have merit - none of them will succeed at getting what they want.

That's what I'm actually hoping to see...this has go to end and I have no sympathy for the unions...



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineworldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3126 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 14):
That's what I'm actually hoping to see...this has go to end and I have no sympathy for the unions...

Perhaps you could share why you feel AA's unions have let you down..... whether you support their position or not, the simple fact is that the TWU is asking for far less and has taken far more in terms of cuts than other unions at AA.
Are you equally as upset w/ the pilot and FA unions?


User currently offlinesilentbob From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 2176 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3021 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 10):
Someone...make the case for TWU because right know I have no sympathy for them...this is ridiculous...
Quoting planefreakaa (Reply 4):
they also asked for a increase in the eagle ASM from 6% to 23% which would basically make 1 out of every 4 seats eagle.

I'd say protecting their jobs is a good reason to reject the contract. Allowing an increase in Eagle of that size would ensure a massive reduction of mainline flying in short order.

Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 13):

If AA's labor groups don't stand together - regardless of whether their individual cases have merit - none of them will succeed at getting what they want

The pilots and flight attendants should be behind them as they would pay the price of the TWU caving on the scope. I'm surprised that the company didn't offer them a better deal with that same 23% number in there. Buying them off might be cheaper for them in the long run.


User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2974 times:

Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 13):
AA mgmt is looking for evidence that their various labor groups will not support each other - and then they will systematically move to divide and conquer.

We have a winner.    NW knew this and was the absolute master of it.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 14):
That's what I'm actually hoping to see...this has go to end and I have no sympathy for the unions...

I would like to know what your personal distain is? I worked for unions for over the past 20 yrs. In the last 5 yrs I have worked for a non-union company. What you and a lot of other ignorant A netters don't understand is how the airlines who are union take advantage of the railway labor act to essentially enact pay freezes. Union contracts under the railway labor act do not expire they become amendable meaning at other companies that are not under the RLA they can strike the day their contract expires. Not so with airlines. It is a long and protracted process so essentially even in the best of times the airlines will purposely drag out contract negotiations for years until the economy takes a downturn then will try to impose a substandard contract or maybe even a pay concession. What you all see is the end result it looks like they are asking for the moon when by and large a lot of non-union companies will pay their employees a modest 2 to 3 percent a yr increase..But if you are under the RLA you might have gone in excess of 4 yrs with no pay increase. So when the union is asking for a 12 or 15 percent raise it seems excessive when in fact it is no different than any other company who gave their employees raises all along except in this case it is worse because airlines virtually never give retroactive pay. They usually give a signing bonus which is chump change in relation to back pay. Funny thing is the NMB the National Labor Relations Board is the agency that ultimately decides to release a union to self help or strike and they let this go on forever UNLESS the company WANTS a strike ala NW and the mechanics. THEN you will see a release in record time instead of 4+ yrs it was within a week. Funny how that happens isn't it? I don't like airline unions either but for a different reason than you.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1653 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2969 times:

Quoting silentbob (Reply 16):
The pilots and flight attendants should be behind them as they would pay the price of the TWU caving on the scope. I'm surprised that the company didn't offer them a better deal with that same 23% number in there. Buying them off might be cheaper for them in the long run.

You know what is really sad is that the TWU is well known in the industry as being the absolute worst for the worker. They are the ultimate company lapdog union and yet the people on here hate them for taking a stand. It has to be pretty bad for this timid union to take a stand.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2311 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2794 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 17):

Strike if you guys want...BA is setting the precedent....



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2736 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 1):
American's last pay proposal called for a 2.5 percent pay rate increase 18 months into the four-year contract. American also offered lump sums equal to 4 percent of annual pay when the contract is signed, 3 percent after six months and 3 percent after 30 months.The 30-month lump sum could turn into a 3 percent increase in pay rates if pay at other airlines equals or is higher than American's at that time.
How is that not enough?

The "pay increase" is in the form of a higher monthly minimum hours requirement.

This will only increase layoffs, stagnate retirements off the top, and will have NO new blood among the AA FA ranks for many, many years to come.

Further, the new proposal sees a 250% increase to heath insurance premiums. So the AA FA's would be working more hours for the same pay, all the while actually earning less net income after insurance.

So even more hours for significantly less pay. I think you don't realize that the union isn't fighting for a pay raise, they are fighting to stop a rather significant pay decrease - not to mention years of stagnant seniority and never having any new FA's hired on. AA is shooting themselves in the foot doing this. While UA, CO, NW, and DL all hired a lot of new FA's to the ranks in 2006 through 2008, AA didn't hire any.

How you can actually defend AA's position, I'll never know. Or do you actually know anything about the details of the contract negotiations?? Or are you just whistling dixie to the tune of the bandwagon opinion??


User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3402 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2713 times:

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 19):
Strike if you guys want...BA is setting the precedent....

I'm curious why you didn't answer the question posed to you by Stratosphere?



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlineapodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4317 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2706 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 18):

You know what is really sad is that the TWU is well known in the industry as being the absolute worst for the worker. They are the ultimate company lapdog union and yet the people on here hate them for taking a stand. It has to be pretty bad for this timid union to take a stand.

I totally disagree. I am represented by the TWU and I will say that our contract is one of the best in the regional industry right now. It's not perfect, but its better than a lot of companies that I see. Also, TWU has managed to keep all of the AA maintenance in house, which has been great for all of their members. What other union representing mechanics in the industry can make that claim?


User currently offlinenwaesc From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 3402 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2691 times:

Quoting apodino (Reply 22):
Also, TWU has managed to keep all of the AA maintenance in house, which has been great for all of their members.

At what price?

There is a sizable chunk of AA AMT's that would argue that overhaul (specifically TUL) is satisfied at the expense of Line maintenance. Sort of a "20 guys are making $10/hr. vs 10 making $20" train of thought.

I think it also needs to be mentioned that they do in fact have people on the street still. On top of that, many are refusing recall simply because the job isn't what it once was.

It'll be interesting to see what stance the TWU comes back with as the negotiations progress further.



"Nothing ever happens here, " I said. "I just wait."
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11961 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2691 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 20):
Further, the new proposal sees a 250% increase to heath insurance premiums. So the AA FA's would be working more hours for the same pay, all the while actually earning less net income after insurance.

It's actually even worse then that, because the wage increases are so minimal they likely won't even keep up with inflation - especially if the crew in Washington carry out their agenda and the dollar responds the way it's expected to.

Inflation-adjusted, income will come down even further.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 20):
I think you don't realize that the union isn't fighting for a pay raise, they are fighting to stop a rather significant pay decrease - not to mention years of stagnant seniority and never having any new FA's hired on.

I think we all realize that.

But I think the thing that many of us on here are frustrated by the APFA's lack of "realization" of is that, even with this proposed new contract, and a net-negative real income growth, and higher insurance premiums, AA's labor costs are still higher than their competitors.

Yes, the contract AA has put in front of APFA sucks. But does it suck as much as the concessionary contracts that some other legacy carriers' flight attendants have had to accept or have forced on them in the last few years? And does it suck compared with the terms under which flight attendants at low-cost competitors like JetBlue and AirTran are flying?

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 20):
AA is shooting themselves in the foot doing this. While UA, CO, NW, and DL all hired a lot of new FA's to the ranks in 2006 through 2008, AA didn't hire any.

That's not all a function of AA.

Sure, AA hasn't hired any new flight attendants in a decade. But that's largely because AA mainline hasn't grown in a decade. And that's at least partially because AA mainline's costs are uncompetitive in many markets up against their lower-cost competitors, thus rendering their network growth a lot more challenging than some other airlines.

And, beyond that, another reason why AA hasn't hired any new flight attendants in a decade is because AA flight attendants aren't retiring. They're staying on longer and longer - getting more and more senior and toping out on the pay scale.


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