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GA Plane Emer. Beach Land At HHH, Ped Killed.  
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 9647 times:

A GA plane made an emergency landing on the beach at Hilton Head Island, South Carolina this evening, killing a beach-walking pedestrian.

Fair use:

HILTON HEAD, SC (WCSC) - An experimental single-engine plane crash landed on the beach in the Palmetto Dunes area of Hilton Head Island, killing one person exercising on the beach, according to Hilton Head Fire and Rescue. Both the pilot and his passenger were not injured.

A fire and rescue spokesman said the Lancair 4-P single engine plane crash landed just after six this evening. The pilot said he was flying from Orlando to Virginia, when the plane got an oil leak, blinding the windshield. Then the propeller fell off, the pilot said.

[Edited 2010-03-15 18:04:36]

157 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAvroArrow From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 1045 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9055 times:

I was just reading about this, what a tragic fluke accident.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/0...lina-plane-kills-beach-jogger.html



Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
User currently offlineDenverDanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8905 times:

I don't really see it as a fluke accident. The pilot chose to land the plane on the beach. Usually there are people on the beach. Reminds me of the Southern Airways crash, when the PIC decided to land on the highway rather than in an open field. More people on the ground were killed as a result of that decision. The pilot here chose the beach no doubt because he felt it gave him a better chance of survival, regardless of who could have been on it. Instead, someone else lost their life. If he had enough sight to land on the beach, he could have gone out further out in the ocean. Selfish accident. The pilot chose himself over others.

User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3562 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8883 times:

Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 2):
The pilot here chose the beach no doubt because he felt it gave him a better chance of survival, regardless of who could have been on it. Instead, someone else lost their life. If he had enough sight to land on the beach, he could have gone out further out in the ocean. Selfish accident. The pilot chose himself over others.

I tend to agree. He could have landed a few hundred feet off of shore and still have been reasonably safe. There's a well deserved lawsuit coming in the wake of this, me thinks.



PHX based
User currently offlineFoxHunter From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 65 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8848 times:

I don't really see it as a fluke accident. The pilot chose to land the plane on the beach. Usually there are people on the beach. Reminds me of the Southern Airways crash, when the PIC decided to land on the highway rather than in an open field. More people on the ground were killed as a result of that decision. The pilot here chose the beach no doubt because he felt it gave him a better chance of survival, regardless of who could have been on it. Instead, someone else lost their life. If he had enough sight to land on the beach, he could have gone out further out in the ocean.


Yes, we all know how crowded the beaches are in South Carolina in mid-March. There are lots of reasons not to have an IPOD stuck in your ear so you could hear a warning shouted to you. That would be if there had been another person within shouting distance.  frown 

[Edited 2010-03-16 12:58:20]

User currently offlinelowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8794 times:

Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 2):
The pilot chose to land the plane on the beach.

I think you might have missed a key fact

Quoting DLPMMM (Thread starter):
when the plane got an oil leak, blinding the windshield

The pilot may have reasonable thought there was no one ahead of him

Quoting 777STL (Reply 3):
tend to agree. He could have landed a few hundred feet off of shore and still have been reasonably safe.

I tend to disagree. If you study what happens to an airframe in a crash, you might realize that distortion of the aircraft might have trapped him inside, injured, with no possibility of ouside help. The Lanciair 4P is a fairly quick aircraft and probably has a best glide speed in the 75 to 90 knot range. Imagine hitting the water at 100 mph and tell me how safe that seems.



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User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3589 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8794 times:

FYI

That beach is pretty much empty this time of year, especially at 6:00pm.

I would think that the person who died must have been using an I-pod or something to be so distracted as not be aware of the plane rushing toward him.


User currently offlineAvroArrow From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 1045 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8775 times:

I think DenverDanny is echoing off of FoxHunter, valid points I guess. But at the risk of sounding cliche'd we weren't there so we won't know exactly what the pilot did or didn't see. Maybe he thought he was further out in the surf than he actually was. At any rate I won't judge the pilot while sitting comfortably here in my office chair, he had a tough choice to make in difficult circumstances and things turned out badly. I'm sure the pilot feels bad enough about how this turned out without us telling him what he should have done differently after the fact.


Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
User currently offlineCanadianDC10 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 346 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8775 times:

Quoting lowrider (Reply 5):
I think you might have missed a key fact
Quoting lowrider (Reply 5):
Quoting DLPMMM (Thread starter):
when the plane got an oil leak, blinding the windshield
Quoting lowrider (Reply 5):
The pilot may have reasonable thought there was no one ahead of him

But it's a beach. There are always people on the beach. Especially in a place like Hilton Head. So, of COURSE there were going to be people on the beach. That is a given and the pilot would have naturally known that.

Quoting AvroArrow (Reply 1):
I don't really see it as a fluke accident. The pilot chose to land the plane on the beach. Usually there are people on the beach. Reminds me of the Southern Airways crash, when the PIC decided to land on the highway rather than in an open field. More people on the ground were killed as a result of that decision. The pilot here chose the beach no doubt because he felt it gave him a better chance of survival, regardless of who could have been on it. Instead, someone else lost their life. If he had enough sight to land on the beach, he could have gone out further out in the ocean. Selfish accident. The pilot chose himself over others.

You said it perfectly.


User currently offlineAvroArrow From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 1045 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8739 times:

Hmm something seems to be up with the quoting in this thread. It didn't show that FoxEcho was quoting Denver Danny and I have a quote attributed me with a statement that isn't mine.


Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
User currently offlinelowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8724 times:

Quoting CanadianDC10 (Reply 8):
But it's a beach. There are always people on the beach. Especially in a place like Hilton Head. So, of COURSE there were going to be people on the beach. That is a given and the pilot would have naturally known that.

No, its not a given. I have flown over miles and miles of empty beaches on the Carolina coast at low altitute. There are not always people on the beach, so the pilot would not have naturally know that. I am certain that he aimed for an area where, to the best of his ability to determine, there were no people. Even aiming for the water would not have been a perfectly safe bet, as there is a fair amount of recreational and commerical water traffic in the area. Would you be so critical if he chose the water and hit a boat?

It is a tragic accident to be sure, but most any pilot would have chosen similarly. The instinct for self preservation is rather tough to ignore.

[Edited 2010-03-16 13:14:39]


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User currently offlineCanadianDC10 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 346 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8663 times:

Quoting lowrider (Reply 10):
I have flown over miles and miles of empty beaches on the Carolina coast at low altitute.

A beach like Hilton Head is almost never empty. It is a very popular vacation spot year-round.


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3562 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8640 times:

Quoting lowrider (Reply 5):
If you study what happens to an airframe in a crash, you might realize that distortion of the aircraft might have trapped him inside, injured, with no possibility of ouside help. The Lanciair 4P is a fairly quick aircraft and probably has a best glide speed in the 75 to 90 knot range. Imagine hitting the water at 100 mph and tell me how safe that seems.

I fully realize that, but that's really not the issue. The pilot chose himself over someone else that he may have potentially hit by landing on that beach and guess what, he lost the gamble and hit someone.

I guess I'm from the line of thought that I'd rather buy it myself than take someone else out, but whatever.

Quoting lowrider (Reply 10):
It is a tragic accident to be sure, but most any pilot would have chosen similarly. The instinct for self preservation is rather tough to ignore.

And how many times have we seen pilots purposely avoid hitting a building, only to buy it themselves?



PHX based
User currently offlinelowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 8629 times:

Quoting CanadianDC10 (Reply 11):
A beach like Hilton Head is almost never empty. It is a very popular vacation spot year-round

"Almost Never" It is also, on a winter weekday evening, almost never packed with shoulder to shoulder crowds either.



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User currently offlineAirport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8581 times:

Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 2):
I don't really see it as a fluke accident. The pilot chose to land the plane on the beach. Usually there are people on the beach. Reminds me of the Southern Airways crash, when the PIC decided to land on the highway rather than in an open field. More people on the ground were killed as a result of that decision. The pilot here chose the beach no doubt because he felt it gave him a better chance of survival, regardless of who could have been on it. Instead, someone else lost their life. If he had enough sight to land on the beach, he could have gone out further out in the ocean. Selfish accident. The pilot chose himself over others.

I wonder how many people out there who call the pilot selfish would've done the same thing in the same situation. I'd say probably none of us here have any clue as to what it was like to actually be in the pilot's shoes. Sure we can imagine, but our imagination likely bears no resemblence to actually being in that situation.

Quoting lowrider (Reply 10):
It is a tragic accident to be sure, but most any pilot would have chosen similarly. The instinct for self preservation is rather tough to ignore.

Agreed.   

We hardly have any idea what was going through the pilot's mind when he landed. How do we know he chose the actions he did because he was interested in saving himself? How do we know he didn't genuinely believe that was the least risky option for everyone? How do we know that he was simply scared out of his wits, and had trouble thinking rationally? Not every pilot is perfect, and in the end they're human and they can make mistakes in judgement just like anybody else.

Obviously the choice he made wasn't the best choice, but there are too many things we don't know what went through his mind as he was landing. So I'd say it's best not to jump to the conclusion that he's a selfish pilot who doesn't care about the lives of others until we learn more about the accident.

Quoting 777STL (Reply 12):
And how many times have we seen pilots purposely avoid hitting a building, only to buy it themselves?

For one, there's quite a difference between hitting a building and landing on a field of sand.

And I would be willing to wager that the number of accidents where pilots made mistakes in judgement out of sheer terror far outnumber the number of accidents where pilots were concious enough to make selfless choices. A mistake in judgement doesn't necessarily equal selfishness.


User currently offlineDenverDanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8551 times:

The point is you don't even attempt to land a plane where you know people could be. You aim for an open space. A beach is public space where people are known to be. The beach is such a small sliver of land it makes the excuse that he couldn't see out of his window because of the oil a bit far fetched. For not being able to see outside of his window, he sure did a good job of landing on the beach. If he accomplished that, he could have accomplished landing further off in the vastness of the open water. Again, he selfishly chose to land on the beach. It's irrelevant if it would be mostly deserted at a certain time--something no one could predict. There is a vast ocean to the other side of the beach that is going to be empty of people.

User currently offlinelowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8516 times:

Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 15):
The point is you don't even attempt to land a plane where you know people could be.

People "could" be anywhere. They tend to wander around. I have even had to go around for folks who thought it was ok to walk thier dog on a runway. You can never be certain that any place will be completely free of people.

Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 15):
excuse that he couldn't see out of his window because of the oil a bit far fetched.

If memory serves, the Lanciar 4P uses a Walther turboprop engine that holds 4 to 6 gallons of oil. Pour even half that on your car windshield and go driving. See how that "bit" of oil obscures your vision.

Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 15):
There is a vast ocean to the other side of the beach that is going to be empty of people.

Do a little reading on small aircraft ditching. As I said in previous posts, it is not a simple or desirable choice.

Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 15):
Again, he selfishly chose to land on the beach. It's irrelevant if it would be mostly deserted at a certain time--something no one could predict.

So if no one can predict it, why all the name calling and monday morning quarterbacking. You admit that it is an unpredictable and therefore random event.



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User currently offlineDenverDanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8517 times:

Quoting Airport (Reply 14):
I wonder how many people out there who call the pilot selfish would've done the same thing in the same situation. I'd say probably none of us here have any clue as to what it was like to actually be in the pilot's shoes. Sure we can imagine, but our imagination likely bears no resemblence to actually being in that situation.

Well, I'm familiar enough with aviation accidents to know that you don't position your troubled plane to do more damage. The Alaska Air pilots knew that when they chose to stay out over the ocean, rather than head over Los Angeles. The Southern Airways PIC did NOT decide to protect others, and instead he killed several more people by attempting to land on a highway. A lot of aviation is based on protecting those not flying in the plane from planes--airports have buffers around them usually, routes are highly watched to mitigate sound, fuel dumping is done in optimal places. So, this idea that pilots don't ever think about protecting others on the ground that you are suggesting is false. Good pilots are very aware of what they do with their planes.

Again, he had the whole ocean to the side of his plane, but chose to land in a narrow public place--the beach.

[Edited 2010-03-16 14:09:08]

User currently offlinePWMRamper From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 611 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8488 times:

I'm sure the pilot wouldn't have tried landing on the beach were it packed with people.

He probably also thought that if there WERE people on the beach, they'd see and/or hear a plane coming and move. We don't get angry when Cessna's land on the highway. People see the aircraft coming down and adjust, either speeding up or slowing down. This guy couldn't see or hear the plane, unfortunately.


User currently offlineDenverDanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8463 times:

The pilots of the DC-8 that crashed due to fuel starvation in Portland aimed for a darker spot amongst the lights, where there would be less people. They didn't aim for a street or highway that they thought would better serve their landing survival. No one on the ground was killed there.

Quoting PWMRamper (Reply 18):
I'm sure the pilot wouldn't have tried landing on the beach were it packed with people.

Well, supposedly, they couldn't see out their window, so how would they know? If they had no way of knowing, they should have assumed people would be on the beach. It's a public space. I just think it's selfish. Especially when the whole ocean is to the side of the plane.


User currently offlinelowrider From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 3220 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8429 times:

Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 17):
Again, he had the whole ocean to the side of his plane,

It doesn't matter how many times you bring it up, the survival stats on this option are still dismally low.

Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 19):
The pilots of the DC-8 that crashed due to fuel starvation in Portland aimed for a darker spot amongst the lights,

Not even remotely analgous. Lights at night imply buildings and light poles. Those are hardly good choices for a forced landing. Typically aircraft and the occupants don't fare well when landed among these.



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User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1991 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8416 times:

Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 2):
I don't really see it as a fluke accident. The pilot chose to land the plane on the beach. Usually there are people on the beach. Reminds me of the Southern Airways crash, when the PIC decided to land on the highway rather than in an open field. More people on the ground were killed as a result of that decision. The pilot here chose the beach no doubt because he felt it gave him a better chance of survival, regardless of who could have been on it. Instead, someone else lost their life. If he had enough sight to land on the beach, he could have gone out further out in the ocean. Selfish accident. The pilot chose himself over others.

You didn't say it perfectly at all. Blaming the pilot of the ultralight is fine, but comparing it to the Southern Airways crash NW of ATL is not only ridiculous, it's crass and ignorant. In fact, based on your age on your profile, what do you know about the crash on Southern Airways 242 from HSV to ATL on April 4, 1977? Put that airplane down in an open field? Have you ever been to Paulding County? Have you ever been to the hamlet of New Hope? Have you ever driven that road, old GA Highway 92, now Rt 381, the Dallas-Acworth Highway. I have, several times. The terrain sure doesn't look anything like the area east of Denver or the area between Denver and the front range. It's very hilly, the foothills of the Appalachians. Imagine trying to pick out an open field near Dillon, CO. One of the NTSB examiners blamed the pilots for penetrating an area of T-Storms. The majority blamed Southern dispatch, for not providing up to date weather information, and the FAA. If that flight had been vectored to Cartersville or Rome, both airports that were close by, instead of Dobbins AFB, the crew probably would not have had to put that DC-9 down on a highway. The windscreen of that DC-9 was shattered by baseball size hail, and both engines stalled from ingesting ice. An ultra light glides one heck of a lot better than a DC-9-31. And yet, that landing would have been successful, if the right wing hadn't clipped those gas pumps. If you ask me, the job of those two pilots on SO242 that died, was good airmen ship. They put the wheels down on that two lane strip of black top. They had no other choice.


User currently offlineDenverDanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8397 times:

Quoting lowrider (Reply 20):
Not even remotely analgous. Lights at night imply buildings and light poles. Those are hardly good choices for a forced landing. Typically aircraft and the occupants don't fare well when landed among these.

The choice is between where people are versus aren't. Lights/highway versus darkness/open space is indeed analogous to beach versus ocean. People are likely to be at the beach, not so much in the ocean.

Quoting lowrider (Reply 20):
It doesn't matter how many times you bring it up, the survival stats on this option are still dismally low.

And that's why I'm saying it was selfish. He chose his survival stats over those of someone on the beach. Can't see out the window, can't see who is on the beach, should someone assume there aren't people there and that they will see or hear the plane and have time to move? Or should one err on the side of the probability of people being there on the beach? The Alaska Air pilots erred on the side of the possibility of the plane crashing into the city and steered clear of land.


User currently offlineAirport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8355 times:

Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 22):
The Alaska Air pilots erred on the side of the possibility of the plane crashing into the city and steered clear of land.

If the Alaska Air pilots had chosen to immediately land in LAX instead of troubleshooting over the ocean, 88 people wouldn't have died that day.


User currently offlineDenverDanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 259 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8357 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 21):
They put the wheels down on that two lane strip of black top. They had no other choice.

That's not what the CVR transcript suggests (from Air Disaster Vol 2 by Macarthur Job, pg 18)

Capt: ...I'm picking out a clear field
F/O: [forcefully] Bill, you've got to find me a highway!
Capt: Let's get the next open field...
F/O: No!
Capt: See a highway over there--no cars!
F/O: Right there -- is that straight?
Capt: No!
F/O: [decisively] We'll have to take it!

I see a few fields using google earth, granted it's been 30 plus years. Would they have needed a runway length field? Anyway, the captain saw some fields.

[Edited 2010-03-16 14:54:40]

[Edited 2010-03-16 14:55:46]

25 DenverDanny : Nobody died on the ground is the point, like here with the jogger.
26 lowrider : An I, speaking as someone who as acutally had to make a forced landing in a single engine plane, am saying that this conclusion is absurd. Before you
27 KaiGywer : By your reasoning, another pilot, now praised as a hero made a poor choice as well. Afterall, everybody knows there are lots of boats and people on t
28 Airport : And my point is that while they *may* (but far more likely would have landed safely) have saved lives on the ground by steering clear of the land, as
29 DenverDanny : You have a problem with selectively quoting without reading the whole thing. My point there is that if YOU guys are saying that he can't see out his
30 DenverDanny : There are a lot less people on the Hudson than in downtown Manhattan or in Jersey. It's about choices. Public space of a beach versus more out in the
31 lowrider : Me? I would have cross controlled for a moment to get a mental snap shot of the emptiest area to aim for. I don't know exactly what he did. Um, did y
32 DenverDanny : Who said anything about buildings? I said parks and office PLAZAS. I'm making a comparison to other public spaces where people are numerous at times
33 skyliner747 : Until we are each personally faced with the reality of going down, I think it is extrememly presumputuos and insensitive to be making blanket statemen
34 lowrider : Last I checked, office plazas are typically associated with BUILDINGS. Generally speaking architects don't name it an office plaze and place it out i
35 alwaysontherun : So Denver Danny, you can say with certainty that you would never land on the beach but head for the sea if you ever find yourself in this situation,
36 DenverDanny : You missed these gems about the jogger and his unfortunate choice of GASP an ipod! Why shouldn't the pilot consider people might be on the beach? Is
37 lowrider : Yes. Absolutely, unequivocally, without a doubt, yes. Ask again and get the same answer again. How much flight experience do you have? What did your
38 Braniff747SP : Exactly. I wonder what HIS reaction to being faced with a choice of landing in the sea and being likely to get severely injured, or die, versus landi
39 Post contains images Airport : Put yourself under that much stress and we'll see how well your 'common sense' and 'judgement' serve you. Somehow that tricky thing called fear might
40 DenverDanny : Well, like I said earlier, the Alaska Air pilots had enough judgment to ask to be kept over the ocean. And the United DC-8 pilot in Portland chose to
41 PC12Fan : Those who criticize, put yourself in that pilots shoes. Monday morning quarterbacking is not an option when you're in the heat of the moment. Yea, we
42 DenverDanny : Yep, completely the jogger's fault. Planes land on beaches all the time, didn't he know? And are you basing your judgments about which is safer on an
43 skyliner747 : A As does shutting our mouths about things we know nothing about. There will always be a cause and effect. We can not undue the past, not can we go ba
44 rafaelyyz : There's a risk that you take when putting the aircraft down where people could be. This isn't going to be settled on a.net but in a court of law.[Edit
45 Braniff747SP : Well, the survival rate of an attempted landing open ground is a lot higher than on the sea, those are basic statistics... Common sense is one thing,
46 alwaysontherun : Danny, although I kind of see your logic, I don´t think the stress of an emergency is something you can just brush aside like you do. Big strong men
47 Post contains links PC12Fan : This sounds like a freak accident, yet another for the Lancair IV, which does not help its already poor safety record. (Quote by MD90) Source? My unde
48 Airport : On that regard, then yes, they should be commended (and were) for conciously making a choice to do that over the water instead of over the city. Two
49 HAL : The other thread got locked immediately after I posted this. I think it's quite relevant, so I wanted to put it here: Have you guys every flown a smal
50 Post contains links DenverDanny : Curious what you are looking at, I'm just looking at this right now: http://www.equipped.com/ditchingmyths.htm
51 Post contains images Airport : Absolutely agreed.
52 DenverDanny : Well, what's the point of having a forum if people can't exchange ideas, have them tested, talk about things, share feelings, express frustration, at
53 PWMRamper : Presumably the pilot is from the area, and probably would know if the beach is heavily occupied at that time.
54 skyliner747 : And that would be fine if that were what was happening here. What we have turned into in this forum is judge and jury, yet not privy to the facts and
55 Gatorman96 : I have visited HH for the past 20 years mainly in the Spring, and the beach is absolutely dead (you go there for the golf). Yes, you have your sporadi
56 aviationnut12 : I live on HHI, and know the Palmetto Dunes beach well......if I was in that situation I would have also landed on the beach. I am a private pilot, and
57 Post contains images Fly2HMO : I don't want to even know what is going through the pilots head right now. This freak incident will most likely torment him for a very long time. I ho
58 aviationnut12 : Sounds like a lot of people on this thread need to fly over HHI, or look at Google Earth! Then one would know that there is really no better place to
59 pliersinsight : If the engine was out, he wouldn't have hear it comming anyway......
60 mlsrar : Mainly because it has been less of a discussion and more of you berating a pilot in spite of a circumstance you know little about. Take what HAL said
61 Fly2HMO : There's plenty of noise to still be made just by airflow going through the plane. You'd be very surprised how noisy some gliders can be (assuming the
62 AvroArrow : Well this has certainly polarized people to one side or the other. I am firmly on the side of the pilot for the following reasons. 1) The ocean is pro
63 SupraZachAir : Welcome to my respected user list. I empathize completely. A quick note since AS261, etc. are being used as examples, you cannot compare this to a mu
64 Post contains images Mir : I will never second-guess someone's decision to look out for #1. None of us on this board were there, none of us know what was going through his head
65 ULMFlyer : Yes. No, but I've flown countless simulated engine failures to within a few feet of the sand and water. Where I learned to fly, the beach was always
66 Post contains images ccarter757 : Reading from my Cessna 172 checklist, after an engine failure in flight; number one pitch for proper airspeed while finding the best field/landing spo
67 LTC8K6 : Don't know why the pilot would have expected beach goers to hear a plane without it's engine running...and without a prop... Gliders aren't very noisy
68 727forever : Ditching a composite airplane in the ocean with waves taller than the airplane and water temperature that would lead to hypothermia prior to swimming
69 Fly2HMO : As I said earlier... And a normal powered plane would be much noisier than a glider since they are not nearly as aerodynamic.
70 LTC8K6 : If he could not see, he probably should have assumed the beach was full of people.
71 LTC8K6 : The post was about the pilot thinking the people on the beach would hear his plane, not whether the plane was actually noisy. The safe assumption wou
72 milesrich : That is because DENVERDANNY is such a frigging genius.
73 LTC8K6 : A beach goer probably would not recognize the sound of this plane as an airplane coming at them, anyway.
74 LTC8K6 : Also, how much time would you have if you were on the beach? Assume you are not wearing earphones. The wind is probably hindering your hearing. At 100
75 HaveBlue : Well I know when I was going thru flight school they teach you that if the plane has to make an emergency landing you picked the nearest safest place
76 milesrich :
77 USAir330 : If he had chose the beach we would be reading about 2 dead in attempted ditch. Condolences to the family of the deceased.
78 PlanesNTrains : I question whether that has been proven likely. They weren't on final approach, they were at 25,000 feet. They were fairly far from a landing option.
79 Fly2HMO : True. A glider is definitely louder than a kite. And a powered plane more so than a glider. But as others have said, he was most likely wearing headp
80 affirmative : FWIW I flew regularly over Miami beach during my training and you'd be surprised how little people there are at 6PM, no matter what season. And during
81 planesmith : This guy is a true aircraft head - the news report quotes him: "I've got a lot of issues going on right now. I've got a plane that's all torn up. And
82 CharlieNoble : Right on HAL. It's a lot easier to weigh the variety of options in the internet cafe than when you are running through your emergency checklist. Expe
83 Post contains links MD-90 : None of those aircraft, not even the V-tail Bo's, have the same reputation for being as hot as any Lancair. Especially the IV-P. From PC12Fan's artic
84 MD-90 : That's reading a lot into one sentence said by a man who's under tremendous stress.
85 stealthz : Danny, perhaps you need to get out of Colorado more, I know the front range area was a beach once but that was a while ago. There are hundreds of kil
86 JoeCanuck : If he wasn't from Hilton Head, how would he know? Have you ever had to make that choice? He may have also been thinking about his passenger. He also
87 Post contains links DenverDanny : From an article: Kay Gonzales and her husband, vacationing on Hilton Head from Huntsville, Ala., were among the witnesses who reported the incident Mo
88 MD-90 : From DenverDanny's link: I wonder if fatigue was a factor? That's a long day to leave at 6:55am flying to Florida, then planning on arriving back in V
89 Post contains links DenverDanny : I wasn't suggesting he ditch way out in the ocean. If he could land on the beach like this, surely he could have attempted landing in the shallow wat
90 lowrider : Its pretty well established that people could be anywhere. That is not the only factor in chosing a landing site. The also had 2 operating engines an
91 N6238P : I love the example of the UAL 173 pilots landing in a darker area to avoid populated areas when in fact it was their complete lack of CRM that got the
92 floridaflyboy : By your logic of not ditching where there would be people, that still wouldn't work. There's always a chance people would be in the shallow water off
93 RJ111 : It's a bit hard to judge without seeing the incident. I would have probably attempted to land on the beach - unless it was very busy - and hoped the p
94 alwaysontherun : But was this gear still working with the power failure and all that? Danny, as said before………I don´t think you take the stress into account. I
95 DenverDanny : People often say aviation accidents are a chain of events. I'm merely comparing the decision point about where to put the plane down. I don't see why
96 sprout5199 : And he had to decide if a ditching was going to be survivable for him and his passenger, of if a beach landing was better. As a student pilot that fl
97 alwaysontherun : Exactly, stuff we don´t know and therefore stuff we are unable to judge about. Maybe he extended it and tried to pull it up unsuccessfully afterward
98 charlienorth : The other thing is the UAL crew did not make the decision to land in the "dark area" gravity pretty much made that decision for them. The Lancair was
99 HaveBlue : Don't have the time atm to address all the mistakes in DannyDenvers reasoning or lack thereof, but I will say that I completely and utterly disagree w
100 ROSWELL41 : Landing in the water would have been suicidal for this pilot. He had a limited amount of options and put the plane in the place where collateral damag
101 N6238P : One thing about water ditching procedures. Look in any POH for the step "put coat over face." Water ditching is not tested at all and this just leads
102 stealthz : I will accept that Australia would have more, much more, deserted beach mileage than the USA but I still believe you may not comprehend how much open
103 PlanesNTrains : Then I think DenverDanny would indeed say that you are selfish. Alaska 261: Plane temporarily under control at 25,000 ft. Pilots have time - together
104 bx737 : I have read the posts above. I am not a pilot, but I do have a few questions and points 1) In both photos of the aircraft, it seems to be close to the
105 aviationnut12 : It was beautiful here on Monday evening, very little wind.
106 swiftski : What flying experience do you have, if any? What emergency situations have you been in, if any? In this situation, and with the outlandish statements
107 rafaelyyz : So let me guess this straight...if the ditching goes wrong and someone on the ground is killed as a result, as happened here, the pilot bears zero re
108 PC12Fan : MD90, I take pride in myself when I'm right about something, and, to admit when I'm not so right about something. The thing I respect is that you did
109 Post contains images MD-90 : So am I! I know I'll never have the skills and the money to properly build any Lancair but I do hold out hopes for one day building Progessive Aerody
110 Jcf5002 : This is probably the most relevant quote to any of the nonsense that DenverDanny has put forth into this thread. Its obvious that he is not a pilot,
111 MrSkyGuy : This thread is amazing.. lots of Monday morning quarterbacking, but one principle fact that remains to be made 100% clear is this: *None of us were th
112 DenverDanny : The "least amount of harm to bystanders" would have been to land in the water, not on the beach. The jogger has zero liability here. There are no sig
113 ATTart : Please, answer the questions that people have been asking? What flying experience do you have, if any? What emergency situations have you been in, if
114 PlanesNTrains : This accident is actually vaguely reminiscent of the Gimli Glider episode up in Canada. They landed on an unused runway crowded with people, IINM. It'
115 DenverDanny : Truly bizarre thinking. A runway cannot be compared to a beach resort. Do people go down to the runway at the airport to jog with their headphones on
116 Mir : It was a closed runway, at a closed air base, being used for a race. People were there. -Mir
117 DLPMMM : Absolutely right, except you seem to have missed out on what the lesson is! The lesson is that a person should try to always be aware of his surround
118 MrSkyGuy : There really is not point in further discussing this with you, Danny. The others in this thread have expressed a willingness to discuss the situation
119 alwaysontherun : [/quote] Not answering this basic question does make it look like you have something to hide in this respect. All your judging of others would come i
120 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Sure, because "Family Days" in no way implies people are present. I think it's probably pointless to keep discussing this. You obviously have made up
121 Post contains links DenverDanny : It's not reasonable to have expected the jogger to have been aware of the crashing plane. It's unreasonable to expect someone to be aware at all time
122 PlanesNTrains : IIRC, they were horrified to see the people on the runway as they prepared to land. Oh well... -Dave
123 MrSkyGuy : PNT, you are absolutely correct. The loudest voice in this thread is also selectively replying to others questions about his background and experienc
124 PlanesNTrains : I think this is an important distinction that you make. It is quite possible - though not necessarily true - that the two people in the plane in Hilt
125 DenverDanny : Seems to me that you guys are the ones unwilling to consider ethical questions and questions of responsibility. You're just looking to dismiss. I am
126 RJ111 : Give it a rest DD. It's clear that you are the only one who strongly feels this way. Talk is cheap, when your life is in your hands i doubt you would
127 DenverDanny : Well, I don't think you're wrong. I was judgmental looking back at my early posts, probably because of emotions concerning the death. I feel like I'm
128 PlanesNTrains : That is exactly the point. There is more to this incident than any of us know. For the most part, we are at least willing to accept that there is mor
129 rafaelyyz : DenverDanny, you're not alone in your thinking, I too would have put the plane down in the ocean if I were in this situation with only myself in this
130 rafaelyyz : Plenty of selfless people around, I can assure you. So it's not all as you think it is.[Edited 2010-03-18 09:44:34]
131 PlanesNTrains : Well, I appreciate the reply, and I think that on that note, I'll bid this thread farewell. -Dave
132 DLPMMM : You just don't get it. Everyone takes risks every day with every action and decision they make. Reasonable expectations are irrelevent in an accident
133 dragon6172 : I am not sure anyone is dismissing the pilots responsibility. However, there are many people, myself included, who do not believe that the pilot was
134 lowrider : Sometimes there is not. Sometimes accidents are just that. Freak, random, statistically improbable events sometimes occur. Many of the professionals
135 Post contains links DiverDave : So how much noise is a gliding small airplane with a dead engine going to make? With just a bit of surf noise, it is quite possible the ear phones ma
136 DLPMMM : Possibly, but he possibly would have been able to hear the other few people that were on the beach yelling at him to "DUCK" as well. It was a sad acc
137 Post contains links DiverDave : This is the first I have heard of anybody yelling at the victim. Can you provide a reference? The only link I can find with witnesses is this one: ht
138 SLCGuy : Amazed by the opinions on this thread blaming the pilot! He had a bad situation on his hands and handled it the best he could, like any pilot. Look at
139 Post contains links DLPMMM : The witnesses you cited were that close, but you don't think anyone yelled? Combine that with: http://www.examiner.com/x-18134-Airl...d17-Freak-plane
140 DiverDave : Since nobody reports yelling, I think that nobody yelled. The witnesses in my referenced article were too startled do do much of anything except to d
141 alwaysontherun : Thank you Danny, you were honest about it, I appreciate that. For me, it puts your statements in a different category though. The "I would have" stat
142 727forever : Landing an airplane not designed for landing in water in the water is in fact ditching. By the time he would have seen the jogger, if in fact he coul
143 A346Dude : You would make a great politician. You don't know or care about how to actually improve safety, but you sure know how to reflexively, uselessly legis
144 DenverDanny : Would it have been OK if the pilot had killed the other two people on the beach that he narrowly missed, for a total of three people? Three people de
145 Post contains images Fly2HMO : Dude, seriously just drop it already. Just in case you haven't figured it out already:
146 chrisjw : I'll bet money that he is all for H.R. 3371. I haven't read the entire thread (started skipping down after DenverDanny just started repeating himself
147 alwaysontherun : In his defence, he did answer that one………..although it took me a couple of posts to get it out of him: Quoting swiftski (Reply 106): What flyin
148 stealthz : In most places it is illegal to land an aircraft on a city street, park, football field or highway. At Hilton Head if powered boats and vehicles are
149 lowrider : Federal law already allows a pilot to violate other laws to meet the requirements of an emergency.
150 n49wa : I think the only thing missing from this thread (and many others on a.net) is someone posting that he is not a pilot but has Microsoft Flight Simulato
151 Post contains images dragon6172 : I was just going to say that I landed a 747 in the Atlantic just the other day, inverted, with one hand on the controls and the other munching some c
152 n49wa : Exactly! I in no way mean to trivialize the tragedy of the loss of life, but some of the postings from non-pilot "experts" are driving me nuts.
153 aviationnut12 : I agree with everyone else, DenverDanny please drop this......seriously. It's starting to get old, and he has already admitted he is not a pilot, fina
154 Post contains images HaveBlue : I didn't need him to admit it. Reading just one of his posts made it abundantly clear he was not a pilot. And I'm thankful for that.
155 DLPMMM : I live on the island. I fly GA (but not a pilot). The beach was the only logical place to land, especially given the trees around the airport. The jo
156 Post contains images PGNCS : Go to New Hope (I lived very close by) and survey the options. They are all bad. There is plenty of blame for the crew of SO242, but the selection of
157 bond007 : Actually it isn't an ethical question at all. You're right, the pilot was human, and he did what humans do in that situation ... try and save themsel
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