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Book On UA-TW Collision 12-16-60 NYC  
User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6441 times:

I found out today there is a new book just released about the UA DC8 and TWA L1049 collision over Staten Island,NY
in 1960. The DC8 continued on and crashed in Brooklyn while the Super Connie came down in Staten Island.
The book is named STERLING PLACE by Ray Garcia.
Sterling Place is the name of the street the United plane came down on. Total killed was 128 with no suriviors.
I ordered my copy as did our local city library and over the years, have kept the original newspaper clippings of the incident.
safe


If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8572 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6361 times:
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Thanks for the heads up - but I should warn you that for me alarm bells started ringing when I checked out the website for the book .


http://www.midair-collision-over-newyork.com/index_main.html


It seems that the author is one of those people who likes to make up dialogue that he could not possibly verify and put it into the mouths of the deceased - check under the tab "collision" .

... In the middle of the cabin seated to the right, Darnell Mallory was busy packing his school books. Seated across from him was little Stephen Baltz, wearing the big baseball cap that Darnell had given him. He was awakened by Patricia Keller, one of the flight attendants, as he needed to be in an upright position to buckle up. Looking out his window, Stephen was surprised that there was still no land in sight. Looking worried, Steven turned to Darnell and said, "Are we there yet, Mr. Darnell?" "Not yet," replied Darnell. "We're about five minutes away, then you can see your mom and sister. How is that, little buddy?"

"Do you think that Mommy and my sister Randee are there already?" "I think so, but if they're not, I promised you I'd wait with you until they get there, ok?"

Concern fading from his face, Stephen replied, "Ok, Mr. Darnell." ...


How exactly does the author know what conversations happened in the passenger cabin in a crash with no survivors ?

I know that some people will say that he is 'bringing the drama to life' , but for me , this sort of thing tends to undermine the value of the book , if the author is prepared to make up dialogue for dramatic purposes what else is he prepared to make up ?

I really hope that the book is still worth reading in spite of this rather cheap ploy , I will get my hands on a copy of it when I can , but it is going to be an uphill struggle - I am sure that the author could have written an interesting and compelling book while sticking to the facts without resorting to making things up for 'dramatic purposes' .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5065 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6335 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 1):
How exactly does the author know what conversations happened in the passenger cabin in a crash with no survivors ?

The little boy survived for several days after the crash. In fact, IIRC, he was awake and talking. And I will be ordering for sure! Thanks for the info!!!!



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinepliersinsight From United States of America, joined May 2008, 494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6309 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 2):
The little boy survived for several days after the crash. In fact, IIRC, he was awake and talking.

Yeah, the Steven Baltz kid did live for a time after the crash. There is a book from the 80's, "Eyewitness to disaster" that has pics of him being rescured from a snow bank and lots of detailed photos of the United crash site.


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8572 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6309 times:
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Quoting F9Animal (Reply 2):

The little boy survived for several days after the crash.

Oooops , dont I feel stupid ! I was under the impression that everyone was killed on impact with the ground .

In that case I will reserve judgement until I read the actual book .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5065 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6303 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 4):
Oooops , dont I feel stupid ! I was under the impression that everyone was killed on impact with the ground .

In that case I will reserve judgement until I read the actual book .

Don't feel stupid!!! LOL! In fact, several survived the crash in the TWA Connie. Most died while being transported to the hospital. I think it would be a great read, as this crash has fascinated me through the years.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25461 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 6234 times:

News footage of the aftermath of that event, the first accident involving a DC-8.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/tsgtv/i...ex.html?id=TSGV5-38&link=TSGTVshlk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjYyBCuysG0

As mentioned at the end of the first video, the next day a USAF Convair 340 (C-131D) crashed into a busy intersection in MUC shortly after takeoff from the old MUC airport en route to the RAF base at Northolt near London. It hit a crowded tram. All 20 on the Convair and 32 on the ground were killed.

There's a memorial plaque on the wall of a building at the site of the MUC crash. I don't think there's any memorial to the 130 or so killed in the UA/TW mid-air collision.


User currently offlineHNL-Jack From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 819 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 6036 times:

I was a new load planner for UA at ORD and handled 826 that morning. At the time load planning also maintained the manifest for the gate agent and they would use a squawk box to check in the passengers. I could hear the people checking in for months before I could get over it. First indication I had that there was a problem was when the lead load planner came to me for the papers (no computers then), double checked the numbers and took them to the operations manager. In our usually noisy load planning office, you could have heard a pin drop as the word spread.


Grew up in the business and continued the family tradition.
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2001 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5979 times:

Quoting F9Animal (Reply 5):
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 4):
Oooops , dont I feel stupid ! I was under the impression that everyone was killed on impact with the ground .

In that case I will reserve judgement until I read the actual book .

Don't feel stupid!!! LOL! In fact, several survived the crash in the TWA Connie. Most died while being transported to the hospital. I think it would be a great read, as this crash has fascinated me through the years.

Don;t feel stupid, while Steven Baltz of Wilmette, IL did live for a few days, and gave statements, most of if not all have been published, that dialogue pointed out above is hokie and the author has taken license. I remember the crash well, and the news stories. Remember, the collision occurred over Staten Island, and the UA DC-8 flew on for several minutes before crashing into the Pillar of Fire Church, which lived up to its name that day. The L-1049 crashed on Millers Field, and old Army Air Base.


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2231 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 5720 times:

Steven Baltz died the day after the crash, and his injuries were so severe (burns over 80% of his body, including his lungs, and multiple broken bones) that I would be surprised if he was able to do a lot of talking before he passed away.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
I don't think there's any memorial to the 130 or so killed in the UA/TW mid-air collision.

There is one memorial, at the hospital where Steven Baltz passed away. Steven's grief stricken father asked that all the coins in Steven's pocket at the time of the crash be given to charity. Instead of giving the coins to charity, the hospital welded them to a plaque which hangs in the hospital, memorializing all of the victims of the tragedy.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25461 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5462 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 8):
the UA DC-8 flew on for several minutes before crashing into the Pillar of Fire Church, which lived up to its name that day.

Ironically, it also struck a funeral home.


User currently offlineCAL764 From United States of America, joined May 2008, 377 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 5177 times:

http://cprs.info/ghost_stories/brooklyn_disaster.html

Someone claims to have dreamed this incident before it occurred..

....And got the date wrong

[Edited 2010-03-18 14:32:28]


1. Fly to Win 2. Fund Future 3. Reliability 4. Work Together CO: Work Hard, Fly Right...
User currently offline71Zulu From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 3083 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5000 times:

Was this the crash that brought about the 250 knot speed limit below 10,000 feet?


The good old days: Delta L-1011s at MSY
User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4992 times:

It contributed to that rule (the DC-8 was doing around 290? knots at 8000? ft) but the 250-kt rule as we now know it didn't start until... maybe 1970?

User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4840 times:

I'm into page 50 or so and I have found three errors without cross-checking.
EXAMPLE...in 1960 did LAX have a runway number 2(two)?
EXAMPLE TWO...tell me about flashing strob lights on the wingtips of a DC8 in 1960
EXAMPLE THREE....LBJ was in Air Force TWO at CMH in DEC of 1960.
Hmmm...Remember, he was V.P. Elect in Dec of 1960 and didnt take the VP office until Jan 20 of 1961.

I have the authors E-mail address and will 'speak' to him after I finish the book. He asked me to give him my two cents worth...

Please hold judgement until after you finish the book, people.
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
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