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DL New Routes: CMH/BDL/RDU/SFO-LAX ORD-LGA  
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6730 posts, RR: 24
Posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 20351 times:

DL announces some new routes. DL will chop MDW-LGA.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Delta-...ng-prnews-4037171662.html?x=0&.v=1

Of course, most of these are just restarts from the last time DL cancelled them.

235 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinedvincent From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1753 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 20269 times:
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Good to have BDL-LAX back!


From the Mind of Minolta
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6931 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 20177 times:

Funny how DL flew CMH/BDL/RDU-LAX in the past but ended up dropping them soon after launch. I always thought RDU-LAX and CMH-LAX were solid markets to enter but BDL-LAX just doesn't seem as promising. This route was at one time operated additionally by AA with a 738 and UA with a 319 and both of them ended up dropping it.

I think DL should also try PHL/EWR/MKE to LAX.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineslcpdxatl From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 20167 times:

Nice to see some focus on LAX again. Hopefully this time the growth is permanent.

User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4716 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 20144 times:

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 2):
UA with a 319 and both of them ended up dropping it

That was SFO, however BDL-LAX was flown by UA back in the 70s on a DC8!

BDL-LAX has been attempted and re-attempted enough times to lead me to believe that it works enough to be worth it if the economy is in fact improving. I think the ideal aircraft for this route would be a A319 though.

[Edited 2010-03-18 10:26:30]


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 20059 times:

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 2):

Funny how DL flew CMH/BDL/RDU-LAX in the past but ended up dropping them soon after launch. I always thought RDU-LAX and CMH-LAX were solid markets to enter but BDL-LAX just doesn't seem as promising. This route was at one time operated additionally by AA with a 738 and UA with a 319 and both of them ended up dropping it.

DL cut due to fuel, they said that these would likely be back and here they are.

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 2):
PHL/

agreed

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 2):
EWR/

agreed.
BOS and IAD would also be nice.

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 2):
MKE

To many seats in the market for DL to make this work.



yep.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 19979 times:

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 2):
I always thought RDU-LAX and CMH-LAX were solid markets to enter but BDL-LAX just doesn't seem as promising.

Looking at periods without service in any of the three, the three markets are pretty similar size and fare-wise; RDU is the clear strongest of the three, and CMH is a bit stronger than BDL but not that much. There's also a record of failure in all three markets, but I'd think that, other things being equal, AA/UA would have a better shot than DL by virtue of their superior presence at LAX. That's not to say that Delta can't make them work, but it's something to keep in mind.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Thread starter):
Of course, most of these are just restarts from the last time DL cancelled them.

...and in the one that isn't - CHI-LGA - DL needs to pick a strategy and stick to it.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 5):
DL cut due to fuel

Right, and oil was about $80/barrel when they cut them (late 2007). Where is oil today?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 19950 times:

I feel like I've seen this show before 


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 19913 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
Right, and oil was about $80/barrel when they cut them (late 2007). Where is oil today?

no it was cut with all the Xjet opps which was around the 130-140 mark.



yep.
User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4716 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 19861 times:

I am a little concerned that BDL-LAX is at almost 8pm, I would hope for a more ideal time (5-6pm) for a route that has a reputation for being cut.


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineUnited787 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2778 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 19762 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Thread starter):
DL will chop MDW-LGA.

So this leaves just WN on this route? These are the two airports closest to downtown Chicago and New York. Did WN really drive down yields? It is surprising that DL would choose ORD over MDW for their shuttle. If I was a business traveller based in NYC, I would much prefer to travel to MDW over ORD if my destination was downtown... I understand that for most Chicago based business travellers, MDW isn't as close but they aren't travelling DL anyway, they are flying AA and UA!


User currently offlineEMB170 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 19678 times:

I'm assuming IND-LAX isn't going anywhere?


Can passenger jets fly as fast as my feet do? Let's find out...
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6931 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19614 times:

That's right. UA flew the 319 on BDL-SFO.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 5):
agreed.
BOS and IAD would also be nice.

Yeah really bring back BOS. I guess DL doesn't want to have to deal with competing with Virgin, AA, or UA in the market already.

IAD and actually PHL were launched back in August 2007 but not sure if it ever operated. It could work though.

EWR they would compete with CO and 1x AA 738. This isn't really that hard considering earlier last decade UA was flying the route 4x a day, AA 3x a day, and CO with an insane amount of frequencies.

IAD would be UA, AA, and Virgin, a bit harder but doable.

PHL would be US and 1x UA 320. Could be done.



"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19593 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 8):
no it was cut with all the Xjet opps which was around the 130-140 mark

No. CMH and RDU ended 1/7/08 (so the decision to cut them was likely taken some time in October/November, when oil was in the $80-$95 range).

BDL ended 9/1/08, and the decision to cut it was taken in June. Oil was $135 then.

We can certainly blame the BDL cut on oil prices, but if oil prices were the problem with CMH and RDU (and JAX, which also ended in January), then CMH and RDU are unlikely to stick around long.

Quoting United787 (Reply 10):
I would much prefer to travel to MDW over ORD if my destination was downtown...

Absolutely. But the relevant question might be how many business travelers are NOT going downtown.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19525 times:

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 12):
IAD and actually PHL were launched back in August 2007 but not sure if it ever operated. It could work though.

IAD never happened and i don't believe PHL did. (but both were in the skeds, and IIRC both would have been 737s)

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 12):
EWR they would compete with CO and 1x AA 738. This isn't really that hard considering earlier last decade UA was flying the route 4x a day, AA 3x a day, and CO with an insane amount of frequencies.

I agree. 1x 737 to PHL,IAD. 2x to EWR and BOS.
IMHO if Delta wants to "win" in NYC LAX-EWR is a route that they need to do.



yep.
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19505 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
No. CMH and RDU ended 1/7/08 (so the decision to cut them was likely taken some time in October/November, when oil was in the $80-$95 range).

I remember it was closer to 95.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
BDL ended 9/1/08, and the decision to cut it was taken in June. Oil was $135 then.

agreed.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 13):
We can certainly blame the BDL cut on oil prices, but if oil prices were the problem with CMH and RDU (and JAX, which also ended in January), then CMH and RDU are unlikely to stick around long.

the 738 was to big for these routes, the 319 would be the perfict plane.

BTW, can we please get the times and such for CMH,BDL and RDU?



yep.
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12281 posts, RR: 35
Reply 16, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19442 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

The article doesn't state which carrier will be used on the shuttle. Could it be Compass? There have been rumors floating around about either a LGA or ORD hub with the closing of MEM.


“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently offlineLAXSTEW From United States of America, joined Feb 2010, 45 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19296 times:

go LAX! have a good feeling about the build-up this time around...

User currently offlineB752OS From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19247 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 5):
Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 2):
EWR/

agreed.
BOS and IAD would also be nice.

I don't think BOS could any more carriers on BOS-LAX, with AA, UA, VX and B6 all running multiple daily flights.


User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4716 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19244 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 14):
2x to EWR and BOS.

Problem is BOS already has 12x LAX (2 are LGB) on 4 different airlines.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19240 times:

Quoting B752OS (Reply 18):
I don't think BOS could any more carriers on BOS-LAX, with AA, UA, VX and B6 all running multiple daily flights.

I agree, it would be a blood bath, with someone leaving.



yep.
User currently offlineTWA1985 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 651 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19210 times:

I wonder how AA and UA are going to respond? They are entering into a tough three-way competition. It should be interesting for sure.

User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6730 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19199 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 6):
...and in the one that isn't - CHI-LGA - DL needs to pick a strategy and stick to it.

I think DL was forced to change strategies by WN. When DL launched MDW-LGA, it was thought to be advantageous as they'd be the only one flying the route, even though more of the business traffic goes through ORD. Then WN came along and wrecked that party.

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 12):
EWR they would compete with CO and 1x AA 738. This isn't really that hard considering earlier last decade UA was flying the route 4x a day, AA 3x a day, and CO with an insane amount of frequencies.
IAD would be UA, AA, and Virgin, a bit harder but doable.
PHL would be US and 1x UA 320. Could be done.

Given the beating DL takes on JFK-LAX (a route where they actually have a decent size hub on one end and a focus city on the other), routes like IAD/PHL/EWR-LAX would be absolute disasters for DL.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23299 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19190 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 15):
I remember it was closer to 95.

By the end of November it was, but at the beginning of October - when the decision was more likely taken (~90 days out), it was between $81 and $83.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6931 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (4 years 9 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 19159 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 14):
IMHO if Delta wants to "win" in NYC LAX-EWR is a route that they need to do.

Exactly. And they still have the 9 gate satellite at EWR. They could certainly expand if they wanted to. I'm thinking similar to SLC: 2x 738 or 1x 757, 1x 738.

Some trivia: DL did operate EWR-LAX with a 762 in 1990-1992. Didn't last long but it was a much different time.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
Given the beating DL takes on JFK-LAX (a route where they actually have a decent size hub on one end and a focus city on the other),

According to "route insight" on flight aware, DL has the second largest amount of passengers by percentage on JFK-LAX (AA being number 1.) Not sure how accurate that is though.

[Edited 2010-03-18 11:44:04]


"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
25 TWA1985 : That would be AWESOME! Another Chicago hub/focus city would be like a trip back in time. But I know it is very unlikely ... But I can dream!
26 TinPusher007 : love to see LAX getting more attention. Why? All the CO cheerleaders will gladly tout CO's winning of NYC without JFK-LAX in their portfolio... I thin
27 nwaesc : When you say "hub," do you actually mean base? Just curious. Also, I thought a LGA hub was one of the reasons behind the slot swap w/US. ORD? That'd
28 peanuts : I am not so sure anymore. At this point, you also have to look at your HUGE FF bases everywhere. DL has plenty of them. Entering a new non stop marke
29 FlyPNS1 : DL's FF base in PHL and IAD are minimal at best. Yes and no. Some of these flights don't even connect to DL's international flights at LAX. But DL ha
30 laca773 : I can see RDU being operated with the 73H but BDL & CMH would be better off flown on 319s/73Gs. I hope these new DL additions work out for them t
31 DFWEagle : How many daily flights does DL currently have on MDW-LGA? Are these trips on mainline equipment or regional partners?
32 ERJ170 : First of all, *tear in eye* let me say I am so happy right now! *sniffle* I am so happy to see any service return to my airport. It's like a grand day
33 JBAirwaysFan : This seems like a suicide for DL with UA and especially AA very strong on LGA-ORD.
34 casInterest : Considering that DL now includes the Former NW, then I am pretty sure it will be around for awhile. Whole new slew of passengers to send through to L
35 Cubsrule : Maybe - but if so, why didn't they announce this 6 months ago and move to ORD ASAP (i.e. as soon as the departure cap ended)?
36 Post contains images cokepopper : Exactly! EWR is one puzzle piece that is missing. True... Started with 3 daily 762 flights a day. Royal service
37 STT757 : Agreed, of all the airlines flying NYC (EWR/JFK) to LAX DL gets the lowest average fare, lower than even B6. DL with the lowest average fares: as per
38 Post contains images MaverickM11 : "SkyTeam partner China Southern Airlines, for instance, currently does not operate service to Northern California and plans to use the new flights to
39 Jetlanta : What is that data? Its most decidedly NOT D.O.T. data. D.O.T. does not report in cents. Delta's average DOT fares have not been below B6 or VX. I don
40 OA412 : Those say median. Does anyone have the average fares? I'm assuming they differ slightly. Anyway, when is that data from? I wonder if DLs recent push
41 OA412 : Interesting. So does anyone know where this data is from? Well and let's not forget that UA/AA vs DL on the JFK-LAX route has historically been an ap
42 Jetlanta : I didn't even catch that they were "median". That's basically data abuse in this circumstance. As long as AA and UA are flying aircraft configured th
43 United1 : Yup...UA, DL and AA are not necessarily going after the same passengers on this route. There is nothing that says all three airlines can't operate th
44 OA412 : Yeah I wondered aobut that too when I read it. I'm assuming the poster meant to say base rather than hub. I'd be shocked if DL would be considering o
45 RL757PVD : yea I cant imagine hub plans, but I can see consolidating their chicago operation and and adding key cities ORD to: SEA (AS codeshare) LAX (AS?) SLC
46 FWAERJ : With FL also on the route nonstop again, one can wonder if the IND market can support two carriers (one legacy, one LCC) to LAX. (Though, to be hones
47 Post contains images KaiGywer : Doh! Of course I do.... That's what happens when you type in a hurry
48 ckfred : The problem for DL on ORD-LGA is that UA and AA dominate the route. Since DL shifted so many ORD flights to CVG in the late 80s and early 90s, people
49 sectflyer : Anyone know if the LAX-BDL run is going to be a redeye? I believe it was last time around
50 NWBOS : It woul It would be nice to see DL stand its ground a little in BOS. We've already ceded much to the competition. I can understand letting the low cos
51 Tommy767 : NW flew this route for how many years before DL took it over? I want to say at least 3-4? I think they'll be fine. Hopefully it will happen eventuall
52 exFWAOONW : Does MDW have a train station like ORD does? or are you planning to be stuck in traffic (on a bus, rental or taxi) on your way to downtown CHI? So, w
53 thegreatRDU : For RDU a 7:45 am departure helps out alot.... and our return is a redeye ariiving at 06:00 I'm confident in the RTP travelers...so I'm not trying to
54 FlyPNS1 : Most of DL's FF base are in places like ATL, DTW, MSP,etc, so a route like PHL-LAX isn't going to help them. DL just doesn't have the critical mass o
55 iliribdl : Yes, leaving closer to midnight (I think 11:50) with arrival time of 8am. (at least that's what I saw on the schedule before I left work) Really happ
56 Tommy767 : DL flies quite a few 757s and 738s on PHL-ATL everyday. Not sure how many connect to the west coast via ATL though.
57 Post contains images elbandgeek : Another blow to my beloved MDW. As much as I like WN, I'm getting sick of them becoming the only option for 90% of the flights there. Even with ORD up
58 DeltAirlines : MDW is the terminal of the Orange Line - it's about a 25-30 minute ride from the Loop to MDW. I tend to doubt it - United Express runs a pretty tight
59 Post contains images Cubsrule : Unfortunately, the passenger experience in Terminal 2 isn't real good. The security checkpoint is generally one of the worst - if not the worst - in
60 DeltAirlines : Can't say I've ever used T2 security (I've always used T1 when on United, T3 on Delta when they were over there) - T2 itself is not the greatest faci
61 pilotpip : 9 a day, all on S5. I don't think I've ever seen that flight full except when the earlier one cancelled. Something tells me we'll end up doing these
62 DeltaRules : Thank you Delta! This just potentially made a trip we want to take to Hawaii this summer significantly smoother. ATL-HNL was worth it, but the return
63 worldtraveler : DL+NW is the 2nd largest network carrier in PHL just as they are in many cities. Like alot of cities, DL has service from PHL to more than a half doz
64 GlobalCabotage : Back in the good old days, UA, AA, and TW all flew ORD-LGA hourly on 727's. We will see how this pans out by October. Regarding ORD as a DL hub, no wa
65 midway7 : Those say median. Does anyone have the average fares. I'm assuming they differ slightly. Anyway, when is that data from? Actually, once the concourse
66 MaverickM11 : The yields are MUCH higher at ORD, and they don't have WN
67 DeltaRules : How will DL route the 738 that's going to make up the CMH-LAX-CMH flights? Will they swap out one of the afternoon MD-88 ATL-CMH flights & re-arra
68 DeltAirlines : That makes sense, plus there is a fair amount of corporate offices right in the vicinity of O'Hare that don't exist at Midway, and going from Midway
69 FlyPNS1 : With a whopping marketshare of about 8% and the merger won't make much difference in markets like IAD/PHL. It may help DL more in fragmented markets
70 UN_B732 : DL Shuttle to ORD? Wow! I can't wait to see UA and AAs response. -A
71 FutureUScapt : Unless I'm having a memory lapse, I don't believe PHL-LAX was ever announced; I remember IAD being announced, but not PHL. Let's see how DL does in s
72 commavia : I don't really know how they'd respond. Both have hourly, shuttle-like schedules between ORD and LGA and have for years - and even after this Delta a
73 planefxr : DL offers approximately 100,000 ASM per month out of PHL, I don't think that should just be discounted.
74 sectflyer : I take it that that AC arriving in BDL from LAX did a ATL run and did not sit around all day for the return to LAX!!!?
75 Mercure1 : AFAIK, the Max takeoff wt for the NWA 319 birds was only 154,300lbs, not enough to run max pax year round to the west coast for BDL-LAX.
76 United1 : UA already does that for the most part out of B concourse...about the only thing I could see UA and AA doing is upping the service levels in the back
77 deltal1011man : I thought it was in the same timetable as LAX-IAD but i may be wrong. I don't think Delta needs to worry about any east coast citys till they get PHX
78 Jacobin777 : .......living in the Chicagoland area for 35+ years (even though I live in the Bay Area for the past 10 years, I still travel to Chicago every few mo
79 PHXtoDCAtoMSP : I don't follow your logic (which goes something like this): -I lived in Chicago from 1965-2000 -I have lived in the San Francisco Bay area from 2000-
80 fjnovak1 : For the people that were wondering about the previous flight from BDL-LAX, I don't know if it changed before it got the axe, I think it did actually,
81 Jacobin777 : ..simple, my user profile states I live in the Bay Area (which I do), but I still spend quite a considerable amount of time in Chicago as well, and a
82 Jetlanta : Jacob, they aren't going after people who live in Chicago. They are going after NYC point-of-sale traffic. It's going to take some investment, but OR
83 HVNandrew : In Summer 2006, back when DL was running BDL-SLC service as well, the aircraft would come in as a redeye from LAX and turn to SLC; it spent the day o
84 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...I have ORD-LGA fares on my "route list" I watch daily (along with SJC/SFO-ORD and a few others). AA has dropped fare prices by a bit......yields w
85 Jetlanta : What do you think the CASM on a Shuttle America E175 is vs. an AA MD-80? I think you'd be surprised.
86 milesrich : ORD-LGA used to be the most traveled longer distance air route in the US. I have no idea how it compares to others today, but as another poster said,
87 TWA902fly : Somebody asked for the flight times earlier... all LGA-ORD flights are operated by Shuttle America EMB-175s (not Compass) LGA-ORD DL 5953 LGA-ORD 0659
88 mayor : IIRC, Eastern did, also.
89 Surfandsnow : Now this is VERY interesting. I did not think we would see these p2p routes (LAX certainly isn't a hub for DL) return so soon, if ever. Good news thou
90 apodino : I will admit, DL came up with some routes out of left field today. CMH, BDL and RDU can all work I think as they are bigger markets then some people r
91 deltal1011man : worry about the S5 contract when you see DL order 16(or is it 17?) 76 seaters. Delta wont take the chance not to have 76 seaters.
92 Post contains images UnitedTristar : you know, DL did operate this route before it changed to MDW...it didn't last very long at all! they moved it to MDW and added additional frequencies
93 WA707atMSP : Eastern did not have New York - Chicago authority prior to deregulation. The only airline other than AA, TW, and UA that had New York - Chicago autho
94 EMB170 : Hey! Don't ignore us DL FF's in PHL! Trust me, many people in PHL would welcome the chance to fly nonstop on a carrier *other* than US. After all, DL
95 FutureUScapt : ...which was a downgauge from the AF 330. Not exactly a great example of success for SkyTeam in PHL
96 Post contains images Jacobin777 : Truth be told friend, I haven't seen the numbers in a while....but I think I'll have to dig something out... Still haven't found DL's numbers, but a
97 FlyPNS1 : You already have that option on PHL-LAX as UA flies it 2x daily.
98 Jetlanta : The cities you mention are not "random places" for Delta. They are actually decent-sized markets where Delta has a strong presence, particularly afte
99 EMB170 : I'm SkyTeam...not Star ;o)
100 laca773 : I've been wondering about this as well. I was thinking DL would upgauge this flight to a 763ER but it looks like it will stay a 75W.
101 EMB170 : So should they just abandon the route entirely to US?
102 sydaircargo : not a new route but DL will bring the 777 back to FRA as of April 8th. the A330 had always problems on the cargo side due to the crew rest compartment
103 EMB170 : I remember seeing the NW 747 at E-15 when NW was still on the E concourse by TW. I am assuming this was used for NW 5/NW 6. The A320 that continued t
104 joeljack : LGA-ORD with 11 dailies???? If I were UA or AA I'd be furious. United and to some extent AA have done a wonderful job over the past year or two reduci
105 MaverickM11 : Both have enormous fleets of 757s that could be placed on LGA real fast.
106 C767P : I am curious, would you do the same to any other airline that would add or start service to ORD? I know that there is a lot of talk about VX and ORD,
107 surfdog75 : Are we 12? DL has a dominant position in NY and needs to serve Chicago. It's not like they started ORD-MIA or ORD-SFO. UA and AA would be hard presse
108 commavia : Should be interesting to see how this all shakes out. The LAX markets are interesting and smart on Delta's part. All three of these new (really old) m
109 MaverickM11 : They can also flow most of North America beyond ORD, bolstering whatever capacity increase they may throw at LGAORD, whereas DL has to rely 100% on t
110 planefxr : What is the advantage in revenue premiums that AA and UA have over DL in this particular market LGA-ORD? How substantial is it?
111 Cubsrule : They are, however, in MDW. So I guess the calculus is that UA + AA + Better local market is better than WN alone. I can't quibble with that. Summer o
112 MaverickM11 : They're in JFKORD as well, 4X mostly on CR9s currently.
113 klkla : That's an apples and oranges comparison. LGA (And the NYC area in general) is a Delta hub/focus city and they are obviously aiming these flights towa
114 Cubsrule : They are, though I doubt that service really targets the local market.
115 Cubsrule : And where, exactly, did AA aim LGA-ATL and LGA-CLT last time around? Toward its FFs in Atlanta and Charlotte?
116 Tommy767 : Yes but UA and AA need the 757s elsewhere as they both just recently retired portions of their mainline fleets. LGA will probably be continued to be
117 United1 : 8 - it works out to 6 or 7 flights a day per gate which is about right for a network carrier.[Edited 2010-03-19 10:43:28]
118 Jetlanta : Except AA and UA have both added far more capacity at ORD in the last year than DL would dream of. Perhaps you should stop flying them as well.
119 Cubsrule : I'm not sure UA is up year-over-year as much as you think. That said, with the new runway fully operational (and more new concrete presumably coming)
120 mayor : Back in the 70's we had 90 flights per day, with 4 gates with 7 Jetways (concourse H). After awhile the city wouldn't let us use 10b....the a/c came
121 United1 : Last I saw UA was projecting 620 or so daily flights out of ORD this summer...which I think is a little higher then last year but still lower then wh
122 Cubsrule : I think that's right. My sense is that they are up a few percent over last year, not more than 5 percent.
123 Post contains images peanuts : Something tells me you weren't a "fan" to begin with... Gaining revenue premiums takes time. You need to develop markets first. That's the phase DL i
124 deltal1011man : good luck aganst Delta with hourly 757s........
125 Jacobin777 : ...kind of like going up against AA/UA @ ORD......
126 MaverickM11 : They also have a new parallel runway that makes that possible with much fewer delays There are lots of routes that have 757s that don't need them, li
127 Post contains images cokepopper : Exactly! Delta's growth bring emotions and fear being the main one. Just read below. Glad you don't run an airline. So your telling me the segment th
128 Cubsrule : Which has a lower CASM, an S5 E-Jet or an AA S80?
129 Tommy767 : Actually I've taken that route before with the AA 757 and those flights are PACKED for both local traffic and outbound connections. I think that is a
130 Post contains images deltal1011man : Man, i bet Delta is so sad about this. ding ding ding And what's bad is no one looks at the numbers. Its funny how ATL-LGA should be able to have mor
131 Post contains images Cubsrule : If AA wants to retaliate, there are ways to do it that aren't complete nonsense. LGA-ATL would be a reasonable route, as might LGA-MSP or LGA-DTW.
132 Tommy767 : Yeah back in 2007 AA had a nice operation at LGA but they basically dismantled much of it by summer 2008 during the oil crisis. In summer 2007 they f
133 Jacobin777 : ....you're entitled to your opinion.....we'll see what happens. .....DL failed on MDW-LGA didn't they? ..but there is no competition really on ATL-LG
134 United1 : Actually its an even bigger gap then that between DL and UA/AA. UA will be operating 1814~ seats on the day DL begins service on ORD-LGA.
135 planefxr : Look for DL to add alot more capacity at MSP and DTW when and if the agreement with US gets settled.
136 planefxr : DL pulled back as well from 2007 levels.
137 Post contains images Mexicana757 : If I remember right, weren't the DL ORD-LGA flights operated 4 or 5x daily before they moved to MDW to make room for ORD-JFK around 2007? Now with DL
138 Cubsrule : They never got to 5, and they may not have ever gotten to 4. It started at 3x. Why? To slot squat? There's no network need for more DTW and barely a
139 MaverickM11 : My point is if AA needs 757s, there are plenty of them, and they'll be on LGAORD tomorrow should they choose to go that route. Won't they be adding o
140 EMB170 : IIRC when AA jumped on ATL-LGA to begin with it wasn't to punish DL but to punish FL for starting DFW-LAX. I had remembered reading somewhere on this
141 Tommy767 : The thing I question about AA is how loyal are they really to ORD versus MIA? AA needs the 757s down in MIA for caribbean and latin america for both
142 elbandgeek : Actually there will be 3 once the A4s reopen. I'm thinking DL won't need 5 gates after dropping LGA so they'll end up consolidating in A (4A, 4B, 5,
143 Post contains links FutureUScapt : No, I didn't say that. But they should right-size capacity to demand so that they can maximize profits/minimize losses to the best of their ability.
144 planefxr : Because of the perimeter rule in LGA, MSP and or DTW should be an excellent connecting point for LGA-West/Midwest O/D.
145 worldtraveler : DL did market service to CHI from the MAT before... not sure that it made a whole lot of difference. There might be some nicer amenities but those do
146 Mexicana757 : Jetblue is happy at ORD. I don't see them adding MDW. They could have chosen MDW when they were looking at flying to Chicago. They're like B6 and wan
147 Jacobin777 : While AA dominates @ MIA, they always have to pay attention to the Chicago market. If they become too complacent, UA will start pulling further ahead
148 Cubsrule : Why is the existing service inadequate? Agreed, though when you go less than daily, the advantage of being the only nonstop carrier diminishes some.
149 FutureUScapt : EDIT: Nevermind, just saw the number for this summer. Looks like there will be quite a ramp-up in departures, going from around 555 now to 620 for th
150 planefxr : No probably not, but DL will provide an option not only to ORD, but nice alternatives for connecting through MSP or DTW.
151 PHXtoDCAtoMSP : What is the breakdown between mainline and regional? I looked at mainline flight counts recently at big hubs and DL had more mainline flights at MSP
152 FutureUScapt : I don't have the breakdown on mainline/regional flights unfortunately (and UA's website isn't much help) but it looks as if the total number of depar
153 Cubsrule : Given that DL has a 100-seater at mainline and UA is doing most of that type of flying at Express, it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison.
154 worldtraveler : There aren''t that many D9-30s left and the number will be shrinking. DL does not have a whole lot of mainline 100 seat aircraft. They do have 110-125
155 planefxr : There are even fewer 110 seat a/c, and they will be gone soon as well.
156 Post contains images deltal1011man : So AA/UA are like WN? I think not. there are two carriers, and has been three on ATL-LGA. There are two and will be three on ORD-LGA.....at much larg
157 Cubsrule : No, it's different, especially with respect to DTW. What cities will be better-served from LGA than they will be from DTW?
158 N62NA : Nah, DL doesn't care about EWR. Just a pet peeve of mine, but DL will NOT be flying LGA-ORD... Another airline that DL is paying to fly the route on
159 deltal1011man : So its only one way? there may not be many(any) people that do DTW-LGA-XXX, but you don't think there are people that will be doing LGA-DTW-XXX?
160 planefxr : Exactly, LGA is unique in regards to it's perimeter rule. ATL-LGA is huge not because people wanting to connect through LGA, it is huge because of al
161 Tommy767 : What makes you say that?
162 USAirALB : BDL-LAX was originally a Song flight, that transfered over to DL. At one time DL flew BDL-LAS/LAX/SLC.
163 worldtraveler : SInce all of the US southeast falls within the LGA perimeter, the issue is not the perimter but the slot controls. DL and FL both carry about 60% loc
164 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ..you fail to mention/compare the cost structure between the two....... .....no but that's not my point...point is DL is leaving MDW. If DL was doing
165 USAirALB : I'd like to see them try CLT-SLC again.
166 KingAir200 : They could try it, but LGA-MSP wasn't a real hit for AA the last time.
167 DeltaRules : CMH had SLC for two or three years. It was initially run on the E170, then bumped up to an MD-90 before going between the M90 & CR9 before being
168 iliribdl : I guess, unless they add another flight. We have another 738 going to DTW starting in April 7th, and later on will be a thruway to LAX as well. (leav
169 Post contains links FWAERJ : I'm surprised that Delta gave away MSP-MDW to Southwest, given DL's fights with FL and others. In the NW days, that would NOT have happened at all...
170 compensateme : Huh? That's exactly how NW responded to WN's MSP-MDW service last year. Unfortunately for NW/DL, WN had success with its service. NW/DL recognized th
171 worldtraveler : I am not sure what the cost structure would be to be honest with you given the DCI carriers involved and the stage length. It is quite likely that WN
172 FWAERJ : And it's probably only because gates are scarcer than a bottle of Pepsi is at ATL. If there were open gates in ATL, either through airline consolidat
173 worldtraveler : There are gates available in ATL if WN wanted to come... it is required that all US airports allow new competitors access to their facilities or lose
174 PlanesNTrains : Which is only part of the picture. I don't know if WN is crushing Delta on LGA-MDW or not, but if fares are low enough for DL to lose money but WN to
175 N62NA : Look at DL's past history at EWR, and compare it to JFK and LGA and you'll see why they really don't care much about EWR: * JFK and LGA always had mo
176 ERJ170 : Hmm.. I see it as this.. Look at EWR history. EWR is a CO hub. A Large CO hub. Up until the end of last year, DL and CO were happy to allow DL to cod
177 Post contains images N62NA : When I was saying look at the history, I mean HISTORY, i.e. 1970s-2000s. Once you've examined that, you'll have a much more complete picture.
178 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...I'll buy that, but we do know a bunch of variables. Revenue, etc. We also know that the cost structure (CASM) will probably be higher than WN's...
179 worldtraveler : We do know that from a revenue perspective on the local DL and WN are obtaining almost identical results. If so, the issue is not that WN can beat DL
180 steeler83 : Regarding the posts about PHL, I'd like to see them give PHL and PIT a whirl to LAX. PHL certainly has the market for it I think, and even with 1x dai
181 deltal1011man : No its because of space/money. ATL has gates, but they are all on E, with a few slots on the CUTE gates on D with piss poor times. For WN to come in
182 Cubsrule : In terms of changes with the slot swap with US, it is only one way. The slot swap will have no effect on the hubs at MSP or DTW. Those that want to f
183 worldtraveler : Despite you and others perceptions to the contrary, airlines are businesses and they make very closely calculated decisions about their business. WN'
184 Cubsrule : How do you explain LGA and MSP, then? WN doesn't need Atlanta to serve people in Atlanta. It needs to be in Atlanta to serve loyal WN passengers in M
185 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Isn't that the same thing? I'm trying to understand how the end result has a different meaning depending on if it's related to the cost side or the r
186 deltal1011man : Sorry should say, they are NOT scared of Delta. Yes they do, they say ok we have gates on E, here is what you can use them for, in or out? Look at VX
187 Tommy767 : Yes. But now that they are independent, they're not giving up on EWR so easily. Case in the point the EWR-AMS 763 flight which they decided to keep s
188 worldtraveler : neither of which are large hubs with a network and low fare carrier. Both do have traditionally high fares and WN moved into the markets that had tho
189 PlanesNTrains : I can certainly agree with that statement. Alrighty then. -Dave
190 N62NA : Which proves my point. DL doesn't care about EWR, compared to LGA/JFK. As I've also stated many (many!) times on here. The "old" legacy carriers neve
191 Cubsrule : That's all they bring. But if WN wants to attract a certain type of traveler - and the circumstantial evidence is quite strong that they do - they ne
192 worldtraveler : And I don't think there is any evidence that WN is willing to start service to a city just because it is "necessary" in their network. Remember, WN d
193 Cubsrule : But that's exactly how they open new stations, especially in OAL hubs. With what city did MSP open? With what cities did LGA open? With what cities d
194 PlanesNTrains : Like MSP-MDW-XXX or MSP-DEN-XXX? Like LGA-MDW-XXX or LGA-DEN-XXX? Like BOS-MDW-XXX or BOS-DEN-XXX? It just seems like this O&D, non-traditional a
195 STT757 : UA in the 1990s was flying from EWR nonstop to: Denver, Chicago, San Francisco, San Diego, Los Angeles, Boston, Washington Dulles, Miami, Orlando, Lo
196 MaverickM11 : There's no way their network, particularly places like DEN, could work without significant connectivity.[Edited 2010-03-21 21:18:15]
197 apodino : That is a slight Apples to Oranges comparison. T5 in ORD is a little awkward to get in and out of, plus it is separate from the rest of the terminal
198 MaverickM11 : They say their % local is in the high 70s, which I find very hard to believe. Maybe that includes all the thru flights
199 Post contains images deltal1011man : Lower fares, Hey I don't want WN, but your actting like they are scared to come him and I am telling you why they aren't here. and FYI, all of those
200 elbandgeek : WN does what's best for WN, and if they haven't tried to get into ATL yet, then it's because it isn't the best thing for them. ATL may be the biggest
201 iowaman : BDL-LAX will last through the summer, and if oil gets high, not much longer. WN will be in ATL within five years. They have patched many holes the pas
202 Post contains images Womack17 : In the initial press release Delta had a typographical error that seems to be confusing a lot of people, so I checked the schedules myself. DL Flight
203 Tommy767 : If DL didn't 'care' about EWR they would have already dropped flights to MEM, SLC and AMS. They keep them around because they make money. Just saying
204 Cubsrule : Although I'm not aware of them saying so anywhere, the available evidence STRONGLY suggests that that number does include through passengers.
205 Post contains images N62NA : Yup. And their "premium" metal was based out of JFK and their ORD "shuttle" service was from LGA. I would hope they are making money, otherwise, why
206 FutureUScapt : You seem to omit the fact that over the years CO has drastically built up EWR to the point that is now a very viable competitor with LGA domestically
207 worldtraveler : DOT data shows that WN carried more than 50% of their passengers on MSP-MDW - a new route - as locals. The remainder of the connections is largely to
208 PlanesNTrains : While that is true, the fact is that 50% +/- of their MSP-MDW passengers are indeed connecting. I trust that the numbers you are providing are accura
209 Cubsrule : A few quarters back, I took a look at WN routes ex-STL. I divided the local market by the number of seats WN offers, yielding percent local (assuming
210 N62NA : Yep, but this topic is about DL and not CO.
211 FutureUScapt : OK, very well. But my point being that you can expect an airport to be all things to all airlines. Would you trade CO's TATL presence in EWR for DL f
212 MaverickM11 : There is physically no way that is true; they'd have 100% market share in every local market they serve then.
213 MAH4546 : Will be interesting to see if these make it past summer. I give it a 50-50 chance. Delta is doing this because they its a way to expand in LA into mar
214 ERJ170 : I personally feel that airline of choice on the RDU route is a good choice.. it should get better loads due to less seats to fill, and because the rou
215 bobnwa : reply=205]I would hope they are making money, otherwise, why keep them?![/quote] Delta has not made money as a company for a long long time, which giv
216 sectflyer : A friend and I were talking about how great it would be if AS did SEA-BDL service! Think that could be realistic? How about DL running that route or p
217 Jacobin777 : Does DOT break the data down? How does the DOT break down a route such as BWI-MDW-SJC or SJC-MDW-LGA?
218 N62NA : Right. And DL doesn't care about EWR (especially when you look at LGA/JFK). That was my point.
219 worldtraveler : Excellent question. It is by segment but it does show the number of passengers and fare for each segment. On the entire BWI-MDW segment for all WN fl
220 Cubsrule : All right. What's the error? We'll take STL-LIT as an example. WN carried 70.3 PDEW in the market in Q209. Throughout that quarter, WN offered (as th
221 Tommy767 : Again where do you come off saying this? DL realizes they have a good presence at EWR and while not as important as their JFK or LGA hubs, they do ma
222 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...ok...I understand where you are coming from...it makes sense now. ....thanks!
223 Post contains images iliribdl : About the BDL-LAX flight, it looks like the 73H aircraft that arrived from LA in the morning sometime 8am, will turn around to DTW and then come back
224 RL757PVD : Where did you see that? Neither Delta.com nor their timetable (that usually updates first) nor OAG show a BDL-DTW around 9am (BDL-anywhere at that ti
225 iliribdl : Just saw it on Deltanet, on the network planning section it's up there, shows the schedules from June 10 to August 15 I believe. So I guess they have
226 worldtraveler : Your passenger numbers are correct.... Check your PM I sent you. I explained why your number was incorrect but I'd rather not post WN's numbers - eve
227 DeltaRules : Are they showing where the 738 is going to fit in for CMH? Guessing it'll be ATL-CMH-LAX-CMH-ATL?
228 Post contains images iliribdl : Yep, just checked and it is ATL, leaving at 7:05a, coming back around 6:30p.
229 Cubsrule : Check Q2 again - it should have been 2x/day (or actually 13x/week, IIRC) throughout that period). Why don't you post the load factor for Q2, since yo
230 worldtraveler : once again, traffic data - which includes LF - is released on a MONTHLY basis, not quarterly. Revenue data is released quarterly. WN's LF for STL-LIT
231 Cubsrule : Surely, you can tell us the load factor for the quarter, from which we can determine percentage local. Is the reason that you decline to do that that
232 worldtraveler : see the PM for the details but there is a 25 point swing in LF numbers in the 3 months and only one month has LFs above 70. LIT-STL is not a high LF m
233 Cubsrule : It is - I think there are a couple of differences between WN and the legacies that are important here: 1) WN doesn't have aircraft below 100 seats. T
234 ckfred : Actually, AA used to fly 707s and DC-10s on ORD-LGA. In the 80s and early 90s, they also flew 767-200s on ORD-LGA. UA used to fly DC-10s on ORD-LGA.
235 milesrich : My first DC-10 flight was on AA in December 1971, from ORD to LGA. LGA had many DC-10, L-1011, A-300, and 767 flights, but THERE WERE NEVER ANY 707 F
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