ANstar From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 4991 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 28781 times:
It is very interesting - but this strike is not really over current pay - it is over BA making the CSD get off their backside and help with the service.
They are also asking the LHR crew to operate with similar crew compliments (and contracts ie short/long haul mixed flying) that Gatwick have and have been operating for 3 years.
As for the crew saying they earn 11k.... I would encourage those same crew to actually be honest and look at their P60 and then let us know what their pretax earnings were. Sure as heck wont be anywhere near 11k.
Not sure about the background of this, but many airlines do have their CSD (or equivalent) to deliver service in the premium cabins (QF for example) so I am not sure what the fuss is all about?
I would guess its a case of perception of rank/status. A CSD on the 744 fleet would probably consider themselves to be management grade, whilst their job is purely admin and customer relations, if however it involves cabin service, thats just supervisory, and thus a loss of face.
I've seen similar in the past in industry, where a salaried works superintendent, who gets a small office wall round his desk, considers themself way above the supervisor who gets no office wall round their desk, and occasionally gets their hands dirty, but with overtime earns more than the superintendent.
When BA issued pay figures recently, it was noticeable that whilst there was a large pay differential between steward/stewardess and purser level, the gap between purser and CSD was far smaller.
You will quite often hear snide comments in such environments such as "he's happy now, he's got his key to the executive bogs"
TCXDegsy From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2006, 510 posts, RR: 1 Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27702 times:
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 4): I believe WW is on a salary in the region of £700k. The character is probably referring to their own basic wage of 18.5k. Which of course we all know is the basic, before allowances etc are added.
Quoting alfa75 (Reply 1): They are refering to Willie Walsh, the CEO of BA.
I think, judging by the mask, the £185K refers to Gordon Brown's salary. According to the UK Parliament Website:
"How much does the Prime Minister get paid?
The Prime Minister has been entitled to a salary of £197, 689 (including MP's salary of £64,766) from 1 April 2009. The current Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, has elected not to take the pay rise for 2009-10 either in his ministerial or parliamentary salary."
next flights: BA1441 0566 0581 1446 EDI-LHR-MXP-LHR-EDI
ANstar From Netherlands, joined Nov 2003, 4991 posts, RR: 6 Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 27476 times:
Quoting Airbus A3XX (Reply 7): Not sure about the background of this, but many airlines do have their CSD (or equivalent) to deliver service in the premium cabins (QF for example) so I am not sure what the fuss is all about?
True - but if you have been used to not getting involved you could even say it is beneath you to participate in the service!
FlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2020 posts, RR: 3 Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 26133 times:
BA has an active longhaul fleet of 49 744s, 46 777s (+ 6 77Ws coming) and 21 763s (included because I believe 763 crews fly long and short haul at LHR). I don't think they can phase that lot out overnight. So whilst I understand the concerns that "New Fleet" will be an airline within an airline, it won't eliminate jobs quickly. The 787s are still not due until next year, and the A388s are not due for a couple of years yet. From what I understand BA aren't going to force existing staff into "New Fleet" either.
Is some of this "concern" from senior people worried the lucrative ULH routes will go straight to new staff, particularly as seniority will not be used in "New Fleet" either? From what has been reported some of these routes carry attractive additional payments, and are nigh on impossible for junior crew to bid for. In fact doesn't one of the senior BASSA officials live in LA (there was a photo of her house in the papers)? LAX is one of the suggested A388 routes - it would be terrible if she could no longer work flights from her "home" to LHR anymore wouldn't it?
As to the picture posted by the OP, it is meant to be Primeminiser Gordon Brown on the right. £185k for running the country is actually not greedy (not that I think he does it well!).
tim222 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 87 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 26090 times:
well here you go... BA crew member joined July 2005, happy to show... financial year from April 09 to Feb 10
Gross taxable pay 20867.29 Net taxable pay 20867.29
YOUR BASIC PAY IS 13061.00 PA
Tax and Nat Ins contrib £4500
as i said I am 5 years in the company... but if you are to believe that I earn 30000 pa then I need to earn £9132 in the next month... dont think so... i'll probably take home £22500 before tax so about £17500 actual take home...
david_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7259 posts, RR: 14 Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 25872 times:
Quoting tim222 (Reply 36): as i said I am 5 years in the company... but if you are to believe that I earn 30000 pa then I need to earn £9132 in the next month... dont think so... i'll probably take home £22500 before tax so about £17500 actual take home...
I'd love to earn £30000
My heart bleeds for you. My net pay from 01/01/10 through to 09/03/10: £0. That's right zero. Where I worked had no money to pay wages but were in negotiations to get money in but before it happened, we got closed down. So if you think you are being hard done to, just quit and I'll take your job on 75% of what you get paid.
PRAirbus From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2005, 1057 posts, RR: 1 Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 25813 times:
Flight attendants are often not appreciated and taken for granted, yet they are the only airline work group that could retain or keep passengers away since they are the true "face" of the airline and interact with customers for extended periods of time. Flight attendants have to be away from home; interact with rude passengers, be exposed to plenty of diseases (in cramped/dirty airplane cabins, passengers coughing, sneezing, spitting on cups, etc.) Flight attendants like pilots, have to adjust to multiple time zones; ups and downs of flying multiple segments per day and now are subject to minimum crew rests prior to longer duty days. In contrast to pilots, Flight Attendants use a lot of physical energy by being up most of the time, pushing/pulling heavy carts up/down the aisles even during turbulence. It is also a risky job; risk of a crash, a terrorist attack, etc. Flight Attendants are often underpaid and their job is highly stereotyped. BA, AF, AA FAs are in their right to stand up for their rights and expect a decent pay especially when all CEOs keep taking bonuses while ALL employees have sacrificed. ENOUGH is ENOUGH!!!
For the benefit of non-UK residents, It is probably worth putting this into context.
The average annual salary for a full-time employee in the UK was £25,800 last year.
So, in this instance, this 5 year crew member at BA is getting 87% of the national average wage.
par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6496 posts, RR: 8 Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 25571 times:
Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 34): The 787s are still not due until next year, and the A388s are not due for a couple of years yet. From what I understand BA aren't going to force existing staff into "New Fleet" either.
My read of what is posted on this site is that existing staff cannot go into the "New Fleet" if true they are in dead end jobs.
Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 34): Is some of this "concern" from senior people worried the lucrative ULH routes will go straight to new staff, particularly as seniority will not be used in "New Fleet" either? From what has been reported some of these routes carry attractive additional payments, and are nigh on impossible for junior crew to bid for.
I would think that part of the cost reduction would be to get as many folk - new hires - into the "New Fleet" as fast as possible as there is a huge economic advantage, maybe the option for early retirement and contract buyouts should have been greater?
If airline OEM's are increasing production, and fuel prices continue to climb one would expect a push for newer more efficient a/c to enter the fleet on an expedited basis.
tim222 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2009, 87 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 25381 times:
exactly I was trying to put another point accross but yet again people have to shoot us down in flames... The UK media makes out that we earn these fantastic salaries but not all of us do. so yes I earn a little less than the UK average, but yes on the other hand compared to some airlines we are better off, but this constant bashing from certain members on here is just getting tiresome...
and FYI I personally will be going into work tomorrow, i will happily cross the picket line because I am happy with my current salary and T&Cs, so please to certain people dont all include us in BA crew bashing.
This dispute is just pathetic and there is 2 sides to the story, I have never supported the UNITE union and I dont trust BA management, so some points of each side are good ideas but others are unoperatable... The problem with BA crew is that we have too much GalleyFM... oh LAX, SFO, NRT are all going on 1 night trips, this will happen, that will happen, and it is like chinese whispers... someone on a YYZ the other day told me we'll be doing BOS there and back/split duty, TLV and CAI there and backs (god forbid that we'd have to do what charters airlines do regularly), this is the problem with our crew and I sometimes and at fault is that we listen to gossip rather than reasoned judgement and that we are too much reliant on a 70s style union hell bent on maximum disruption and too many militant crew...
I am willing to change and adapt and I have found recently more and more crew along that wavelength, times have changed, we are not in the heydays of the 80s and 90s, the industry has changed and I think that we all need to learn that before disrupting the public, and in theory put our job at risk. and Also... thanks to these militant crew on the picket lines at LHR, I and a hell of a lot of my colleagues are gonna end up worse out of this as the T&Cs will be worsened and the actions of some have had an affect on those of us anti strike... rant over... peace
Aaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7891 posts, RR: 27 Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 25291 times:
Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 43): What about those in other industries......would you say the same thing?
Depends on what the base pay rates are - while it's true circumstances can change, most people who have higher incomes (absent of abject irresponsibility) have a larger savings cushion to rely on and less paycheck-to-paycheck dependency. Again, we're talking about service jobs here, which generally don't pay well - though they are now the majority of full time positions in developed economies.
Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 43): I particularly find the last comment insulting. I'm crew for an LCC and I own my own home. I bought it 2 years ago for 213K (GBP) and whilst i co-own it with my partner who has a very well paid job
Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 43): I still pay around 50% of the mortgage and live comfortably
Because of the partner with the well-paid job - my point is proven yet again.
Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 43): Whilst 20-25K (GBP) average pre-tax pay isn't the best paid role in the world, it is certainly around the average UK income and for working around 12 days a month.
Sounds like a great gig for the right person, just not any individual with aspirations of owning their own home / supporting a family et al without substantial help from another income.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
My mate at EZ got 18k last year. I wonder what a VS crew member would get?
Better yet, I wonder what a more senior CC member at BA would get who works longhaul.
I dont have a gripe with crew earning a decent wage etc and for you 20k is avergae - Ill give you that.
But there are people who have been at BA for a lot longer than 3 years (ie the seniors) who I am sure most of this is aimed at. I mean 1000 pounds for a stop in NRT is excessive is it not?
nope I am WW have been for 2 years
is £1000 excessive... probably yes, but that is 4 days away, 13.5 hour flight each way, expensive city...
Our meal allowances are based on the cost of Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner in the crew hotel for every day we are away... in theory NRT is only £200 for a 4 day trip but flight pay and overtime is where the money adds up... on the other hand though a 3 day CAI is £54 and a 6 day MAA is £150 so I guess it is swings and roundabouts but this is another problem at BA, they want a monthly travel payment so no matter where we go we get the same money... I am all for this but again crew are not happy, but it saves the sometimes unfair rostering... last month I did a DAR, DXB, CAI, JFK and LOS (great roster) and took home about £500 in allowances, my mate did Standby got a SIN/SYD followed by a NRT and a BKK/SYD and will take home near on £3200 in allowances... that is where we need a fair structure to our salary
GT4EZY From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2007, 1752 posts, RR: 3 Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 25136 times:
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 46): Because of the partner with the well-paid job - my point is proven yet again.
I have no dependents......I could have still afforded an 100,000K house if I was single........ because i already pay half towards my 200K+ house. 100K still buys a modest house in Northern England. I earn a touch below the UK average pay..........now tell me why I can't afford and shouldn't have my own home?
Aaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 7891 posts, RR: 27 Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 25020 times:
Quoting GT4EZY (Reply 50): I earn a touch below the UK average pay..........now tell me why I can't afford and shouldn't have my own home?
Nobody said you can't - we're talking about BA crew in London here, OK? Not the same as the Midlands or North by a country mile - so it's not even the same conversation. This line of reasoning applies to anyone in a major city with high COL in a developed country.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
25 1stfl94: How will the new conditions accept shorthaul crew? I'm guessing that their in charge cabin crew (do they have CSDs at Eurofleet?) already works both s
26 GT4EZY: Well thats complete rubbish. If you have ever been on the LHR-MAN shuttles you will see uniformed VS and BA crew commuting.......... a situation that
27 tim222: Yes they have CSDs and Pursers on EF, and when I was short haul the CSDs were always part of the service. If we did a 3 day or 2 day trip and a secto
28 Jacobin777: ....well I think for WW/BA management, this was a "line in the sand" moment.....I think this strike has weakened Unite to a certain extent......"shor
29 tim222: I am not sure at what point they remove them, whether it is as soon as you dont turn up or whether they wait till after the next walkout (if that happ
30 affirmative: I have little problem with what people earn moneywise. It's their expectations that bugs me from time to time.. First. You can become a flightattendan
31 777236ER: The strike has got nothing to do with pay, only the reduction of crew on flights. Pay is irrelevent to this strike.
32 par13del: I'll give you this one from my airline experience - not cabin crew - , I actually flew more once I left the airline for a better paying job, the perk
33 affirmative: I have done a stint in the airline business myself, albeit a very short one. One of the things I was surprised over was just the way a lot of my cowo
34 travelexec: Why does a trip to NRT mean 4 days away? This is an economic falsehood. This concept has bankrupted Ireland... It is only good under certain circumst
35 tim222: Day 1 BA007 Dep LHR 1235 Day 2 Arr NRT 0910 Day 3 rest day (something to do with time zones as it is +9 we have to have 2 local nights/acclimitise) D
36 Talaier: I understand the current BA staff concerns on getting a pay downgrade. Some people i know who work for IB's longhaul fleet fear they'll get pre-retire
37 GDB: Until that final UNITE offer wanted this changed. Quite a price for keeping some senior CC happy. tim222, thanks for your interesting insights. If th
38 Geo772: Superb post there. Difference I'm guessing between a business and a flying club.
39 travelexec: Re - 4 days for Narita Aha - I had thought the 4 days meant 4 days R&R at the far end. Still, 49+ hours from arrival (D2 0910) to leaving again (D
40 airbuske: Could someone please give or point to a sufficiently detailed, well balanced summary of why the BA crew have gone on strike? Alot has been written in
41 A340600: While I can understand eyebrows being raised on certain double night trips, I think NRT is one of those which needs it most- the time change/schedule
42 tim222: i think that under English employment law it is illegal to sack anyone who takes part in industrial action that has been legitamitly declared
43 tim222: it is more the walking zombie feeling in NRT in particular... bearing in mind that your routine and body clock is on GMT but you are working on local
44 gilesdavies: Just reading an article and seems BA staff are paid far higher salaries than other UK airlines... Their average salary is £29,900 a year and senior c
45 m11stephen: To put that into perspective, 46K a year is about what the average Police Officer of Firefighter makes a year...
46 gilesdavies: In what currency? Here in the UK a police officer or firefighter would be on about £25-30k.
47 m11stephen: My apologies, when I quoted 46K a year I meant in American Dollars.
48 GT4EZY: A police officer in actual fact starts around 22k in the UK
49 sw733: I disagree. There is only one airline I refuse to fly...partly because I disliked the FA's, but MOSTLY because of the ground folks, specifically the
50 B767300ER: Each working member decides what type of job they would like to work at at the salary thats goes with that position in known. To quote m11stephen, I'm
51 m11stephen: Here is where I found my information. http://www.bls.gov/k12/law01.htm This site may be wrong however.
52 vv701: Here are the figures published by BA for average payments in 2009 for salary, allowances and total: "Heathrow longhaul: "CSD £38,006 £18,319 £56,32
53 GCT64: This puts Long Haul pursers in the top 10% of UK taxpayers and CSDs almost in the top 5% of UK taxpayers. This means that the lowest paid BA LHR CC g
54 HeeBeeGB: No posters saying what the heads of unite earn. Funny that.
55 affirmative: I wonder how many of them "lives" on Jersey, Isle of Man or in Luxemburg..? The mother of a friend of mine used to be BA CC and she lived with her hu
56 GDB: Due my my lack of clarity, I was referring to post the strike. As in having to pay full fare to get to work.
57 BAfan: Just some information: I was talking to a family member the other day who has very close links to British Airways, and they informed me that there are
58 BAfan: The fact that Willie Walsh earns approximately £800,000 a year is irrelevent. He is afterall, the CEO of a major company, and this from what I hear i
59 ANstar: As for who is harrassing who, am I the only person who finds the placards of Willie Walsh being depcited as hitler disgusting?
60 bojangles: No you're not the only person. It's utterly scandalous. Not so long ago a manager suggested to our GIG based crew (when that base was closing and the
61 longhauler: Exactly. For the same reason, quoting what other jobs make in comparison is also irrelevent. Right up to the point of a gentleman above stating his s
62 GDB: They've (well gobshite McClusky mainly), have compared WW to a '19th century mill owner' (as in sending children up chimneys to clean them), better ye
63 m11stephen: I would love to! F/As thinking that their pay should be directly in proportion with the flight deck crew's pay is ridiculous. F/As are ESSENTIAL to p
64 MD11Engineer: I´m shiftleader line maintenance at an outstation for a big loco airline, taking care of a dozen aircraft every night. I have up to 7 mechanics unde
65 m11stephen: CSDs are still flight attendants. What is the job of an F/A (It seems some of the CSDs have forgotten) 1. Ensure passenger safety. 2. Serve passenger
66 ANstar: The only reason that the strikers are striking is because they CANNOT get better terms elsewhere. If they could then they would simply leave. Says som