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LX A319 Bird Strike In LED And Bad ATC English  
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3012 posts, RR: 46
Posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 18952 times:
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On January 10th 2010, an LX A319-100 (HB-IPT) operating flight LX 1311 from St. Peterburg (Russia) to Zurich (Switzerland) experienced a double bird strike and engine vibrations. The flight landed safely back in LED.

Now comes the interesting part: pilots and controller have a really hard time understanding each other. You have to listen to this, it's amazing and unbelievable:

http://files.radioscanner.ru/files/d...41/swiss_pulkovo-radar10_01_10.mp3
http://files.radioscanner.ru/files/d...2/swiss_pulkovo-ground10_01_10.mp3

Imagine the pilots dealing with the emergency, and also having to deal with controllers who don't speak English. That's a guaranteed way to have fun, isn't it?

Source: LiveATC


Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinelh526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2380 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 18336 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Simmilar thing happened in EZE some years ago .. ATC hardly speaking english and thus unable to perform their work while treatening lifes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvrbMjDvcX8



Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlineBreiz From France, joined Mar 2005, 1917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 17610 times:

Quoting ManuCH (Thread starter):
having to deal with controllers who don't speak English.

Sorry, but for me the Russian English is easier to undertsand than the Schwyzer English.
The radar operator was clearly asking "What is your problem?".


User currently offlineAntonovA330 From Switzerland, joined Jul 2007, 352 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 17457 times:

First of all, I'm not a pilot nor an ATC, but I as well can't see a big problem there, although there are some lines on which I probably also would have replied "say again", but all in all their English isn't that bad.

Quoting Breiz (Reply 2):
Sorry, but for me the Russian English is easier to undertsand than the Schwyzer English.

Yeah, the swiss accent is really eh.. strong.. but easier? Really?



Good day to you sir! Please turn left, your seat is in the first row.
User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6187 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 17411 times:

Quoting Breiz (Reply 2):

I agree!



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineaddd From United States of America, joined May 2007, 397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 17153 times:

Cant' help but think of the classic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmOTpIVxji8


User currently offlineTHEENGINEER From Germany, joined Mar 2007, 106 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16645 times:

Good thing that other pilots were able to translate what the problem was. It's quite amazing  

User currently offlinegunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3509 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16493 times:

Quoting Breiz (Reply 2):
The radar operator was clearly asking "What is your problem?".

Yes, but only after the pilot clearly said "birdstrike!" in the initial "Mayday!" call. The controller goes on to ask the same question after the pilot identifies it for the second time. Scary stuff at a major international airport.



Next Flight: 9/17 BFI-BFI
User currently offlineglobeex From Germany, joined Aug 2007, 742 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16450 times:

Quoting Breiz (Reply 2):

Sorry, but for me the Russian English is easier to undertsand than the Schwyzer English.

Yes, the swiss accent is strong, but no way is it any clearer than the Russian Englisch..... The thing is, ifhe would just have a heavy accent, but when you hear him talk, you can literally hear how he has to form the sentence in his head, before he starts talking and even then its like totally wrong grammar.The LX pilot on the other side has a strong accent but everything he says is very clear despite the accent. I understand about 99% of the pilot and about 30-40% of the ATC controller. And these 30-40% inlcude the flightnumber.

Quoting Breiz (Reply 2):
The radar operator was clearly asking "What is your problem?".

But that's like the only thing which is kind of "clear"



As you may presently yourself be fully made aware of, my grammar sucks.
User currently offlineHotelDJRomeo From Canada, joined Dec 2009, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16163 times:

Quoting gunsontheroof (Reply 7):
Scary stuff at a major international airport.

Scary stuff anywhere. Seconds count, and having to spend valuable ones repeating yourself and saying "say again" over and over is NOT a good use of time in an emergency. And regardless of whose "fault" it is (i.e. ATC or pilot) the result is the same: misunderstandings, wasted time, and an added distration. AV 052 comes to mind as the classic example of this.

And as a side bar on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqBy6TgYxTU

Quite a hilarious (and unexpected!) ending....LOL!



Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16149 times:

I honestly didn't have a hard time understanding either one of them (I do have a knack for understanding heavy accents however) but yes their english skills are borderline acceptable. There's times, specially in an emergency, where it may just be best to use plain english to get the point across. But it was clear to me these guys only know barely enough english for aviation phraseology and not much beyond that and that doesn't quite cut it.

[Edited 2010-03-21 19:33:17]

User currently offlinecatiii From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 3073 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 15885 times:

It works both ways, sometimes you have a controller that speaks perfect English, a pilot for whom English is a second language, and trying to get a frequency readback correct. Hilarity ensues (you can even hear the controller trying not to laugh at the end). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrBN3JqFbLs

User currently offlineYYZALA From Canada, joined Nov 2009, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 15688 times:

When they are in the air, I could understand both sides 100% of time. But for some reason THEY didn't understand each other until later on... The second clip, obviously there was some trouble. Not only did the controller not understand but he didn't seem to know the procedure for this type of emergency, clearly not very professional. Luckily a pilot was able to translate and the second controller got the hang of the situation.

P.S Why did the pilot ask ATC if they contacted the company?


User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3012 posts, RR: 46
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 14774 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting Breiz (Reply 2):
Sorry, but for me the Russian English is easier to undertsand than the Schwyzer English.
The radar operator was clearly asking "What is your problem?".

As someone else pointed out, the Swiss pilot's grammar was correct, even though with a heavy accent. OTOH, the Russian controller's English was not correct, and I was unable to understand what he was saying without listening to the recording over and over.

Especially the "radar" file gets my attention at 1:57:

ATC: "Errrm... strike bird affirm, Swiss 1311"
LX1311: "Say again?"
ATC: "Swiss 1311... you... catch... bird?"
LX1311: "Say again?!"
ATC: "What you situation, Swiss 1311"
LX1311: "I have vibration 1 and 2 engines, 2 engines"
ATC: "Swiss 1311, because... catch... bird?"

At this point another Russian pilot clarifies.

Later on:

LX1311: "We have 2 engine problems, 2 engine problems"
ATC: "2 eighty problems?"

Again a Russian pilot clarifies.

The way ATC says the "because you catch bird" part is unacceptable IMHO and unintelligible and not following standard phraseology ("strike bird affirm" should be "confirm bird strike", if anything).

Because the Swiss pilot understands that the Russian ATC doesn't understand any non-aviation English, he switches to "keep it simple stupid" mode. This can be noticed when he says "2 engine problems, 2 engine problems", hoping that the controller would understand.



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlineAY-MD11 From Finland, joined Feb 2001, 472 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12669 times:

All i have to say is that how is it possible that a person with that bad english is allowed to work at a major international airport?!    Good thing that there was the other russian pilots who translates at times the conversation to the controller!

User currently offlineaircatalonia From Spain, joined Nov 2007, 568 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 11413 times:

Oh good ole' Russia   A solution should be found to this problem: either having all Russian pilots and ATC learn proper english or having all the pilots flying to Russia learn enough russian as to comunicate with the ATC. And the same goes for the Chinese pilots (who have seemingly had some problems abroad too).

Also what's with the meters thing? Shouldn't all communications be in feet?

Regards,
airCatalonia

[Edited 2010-03-22 04:37:11]

User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3012 posts, RR: 46
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10802 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 15):
Also what's with the meters thing? Shouldn't all communications be in feet?

It's funny, they seem to be talking about height (in meters above ground, instead of altitude in feet amsl), and they don't have a QNH but a QFE (if you set an altimeter to QFE, it will show 0 when on the ground at that specific airport). It must be the way it's done in Russia.



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2742 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 10778 times:

Neither have the best English I've heard, but the Swiss pilot is clearer than Russian ATC and shows that he knows the language, albeit with a strong accent, while ATC shows a worrying lack of English knowledge, in addition to the accent.

Listening to the recording is frustrating - so many seconds lost...
They were lucky that
a) there was no engine out situation, only vibrations, because ATC took an awful long time in understanding what was going on
b) there was no fire, because ground control took an awful long time to get anything at all and send assistance

Quoting aircatalonia (Reply 15):
Also what's with the meters thing? Shouldn't all communications be in feet?

This is normal - in the CIS states (don't know if others), flight levels are given in meters, not feet.


User currently offlinerevo1059 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 137 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10644 times:

In my experience, Russian speaking pilots have some of the worst English skills in aviation (and having worked ramp control at a major international airport, I heard em all over the span of several years). Sounds like their ATC isn't much better.

User currently offlineCarls From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10501 times:

Quoting addd (Reply 5):



OMG this is so hilarious!!!


User currently offlineairproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 640 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10483 times:

Quoting Breiz (Reply 2):
Sorry, but for me the Russian English is easier to undertsand than the Schwyzer English.
The radar operator was clearly asking "What is your problem?".

Disagree... Swiss "accent" is far more understandable than the russian wordage used here, really!



If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
User currently offlinevegas005 From Switzerland, joined Mar 2005, 323 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10421 times:

The Swiss pilot did a great job. Glad they made it back safe.

User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6363 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 10356 times:

Quoting AntonovA330 (Reply 3):
Yeah, the swiss accent is really eh.. strong.. but easier? Really?
Quoting airproxx (Reply 20):
Disagree... Swiss "accent" is far more understandable than the russian wordage used here, really!

Different people hear accents differently, as simple as that. One person thinks the Russian accent is easier, and another things the Swiss accent is easier. Neither is right and neither is wrong...it's just the differences in hearing, as well as your original language and how you, if English is a second/third/fourth/eighteenth language, learned English. Personally, I learned German with a South German/Swiss/Austrian type accent rather than the "traditional" German, and because of this I can understand the Swiss pilot easier than the Russian ATC. That does not mean everyone else can...


User currently offlineChrisZRH From Switzerland, joined May 2004, 423 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8694 times:

for those who are interested:




chris



Christian Galliker - AirTeamImages
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3012 posts, RR: 46
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 8687 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting ChrisZRH (Reply 23):
for those who are interested:

Just wow... thank you! Do you happen to know what they had to do with the engines? How is an engine "repaired" after a bird strike?



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
25 Post contains images ChrisZRH : hm... all I know is they had to replace quite a few dozens of fan-blades as you can see in the picture below and one firex bottle for each engine.
26 Mir : Yeah, that'll cause some vibration. Scary stuff. -Mir
27 sandroZRH : I initially didn't want to comment here, but decided I will anyhow. Firstly, this incident was, of course, widely discussed at work. The aircraft hit
28 MIAspotter : That was just outrageous! honestly if I was a pilot I would also be very pissed off!. They tell you that an ILS is serviceable but in reality it isn'
29 B738FlyUIA : Impressive and thanks for sharing the photos... Amazing also the communication with LED Control. So I guess the Airbus will stay there for a few days!
30 Severnaya : I may suppose it's gone already for a long time back to ZRH as the incident happened way back in January.
31 brooklynchris13 : As my first post, I respectfully ask you not to be too harsh, however there is another element to this incident and those that are similar . I often d
32 knightsofmalta : I find all of this highly alarming. Two years down the line from the implementation of the ICAO Language Proficiency Requirements this incident show j
33 B738FlyUIA : With all attentions to the post I just over read this totally!!!!! Thx !!! But I don't remember reading about this in the newspaper as also there was
34 Post contains images sandroZRH : Excellent post And welcome to a.net!
35 Post contains images ManuCH : While it's true that a digital recording taken out of context may not be the same as it was in real life, I have listened to many ATC recordings myse
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