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When And Who To Start Amsterdam Miami?  
User currently offlinepaneuropean From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 882 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9558 times:

Since Martinair chose to decrease flights to Florida, there hasen't been an airline to fill the gap. Obviously there is a market for flights to Southern Florida but who knows when and who is there to resume the Amsterdam-Miami service?

I would say winter 2010/11 (choises are)

1 KLM
2 Delta

3 American. A reason for AA to enter the Dutch market.

4 Arkefly (boring)

5 Air Europa (Why not, It's Skyteam and they just invested in MAD-MIA)

[Edited 2010-03-21 07:50:31]

58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9537 times:

Quoting paneuropean (Thread starter):
Since Martinair chose to decrease flights to Florida, there hasen't been an airline to fill the gap. Obviously there is a market for flights to Southern Florida but who knows when and who is there to resume the Amsterdam-Miami service?

Can you explain to me why, if an airline decides to cease operations to a certain airport and decreases its total flights to Florida, there is a market for flights to Southern Florida??? I fail to see why this is obvious. My take on the action taken by MP is that there is no sufficient demand and/or yield to justify a service to MIA. The fact that no one jumped into this market straight away also indicates that AMS-MIA is not a cash cow.


User currently offlinepaneuropean From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 882 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9484 times:

Both are poor O and D markets, however I believe someone can make it work. MP has no feeder network for the service, but KL/DL or AA do. I believe LH has a DUS MIA sevice and I assume many Dutch people fly from DUS?!

[Edited 2010-03-21 08:05:54]

[Edited 2010-03-21 08:06:18]

User currently offlines4popo From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9415 times:

I think that the only ones that make sens are KL or DL. They can provide lots of connections on both ends. For this reason, I would expect them to do much better than MP.

At a first glance AA looks good out of MIA, but they would have close to zero feed at AMS and would have to rely on O/D traffic. Not to mention that JFK/ORD/DFW would get any AMS service prior to MIA. AA hasn't even added BCN or MXP out of MIA, so I give them zero chance on AMS. AA is very conservative when it comes to route expansion.


User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4677 posts, RR: 50
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9259 times:

Quoting paneuropean (Reply 2):
MP has no feeder network for the service, but KL/DL or AA do.

MP lifts on KLs network for feed.



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlinepaneuropean From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 882 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9187 times:

Quoting paneuropean (Thread starter):
1 KLM
2 Delta

3 American. A reason for AA to enter the Dutch market.

4 Arkefly (boring)

5 Air Europa (Why not, It's Skyteam and they just invested in MAD-MIA)

So the next question is. Can any of these make it work?


User currently offlineDirectorguy From Egypt, joined Jul 2008, 1669 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9064 times:

For both KL/DL and AA, the feed would be one sided. AA has a fortress hub with multiple connections into LatAm and the Caribbean (incl. the Dutch possessions in the Caribbean) plus the usual bunch of connections stateside. KL/DL would get absolutely no feed at MIA but would offer plenty of connections through AMS...question is, there are plenty of Miami-Europe options already, the only new thing AMS might offer are African/Middle East connections...but then again airlines like BA already do that.
I'd say AA has little interest in doing MIA-AMS...thanks to BA and oneworld, AA no longer has to fly thin routes like that when it can focus on trunk hub-to-hub routes.
Given AF's daily 744 to MIA and the DUS-MIA route, I don't think MIA is a missing gap in KL's network.


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4418 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8887 times:

Quoting paneuropean (Reply 2):
Both are poor O and D markets, however I believe someone can make it work. MP has no feeder network for the service, but KL/DL or AA do. I believe LH has a DUS MIA sevice and I assume many Dutch people fly from DUS?!

MP attracted a lot of pax from Belgium and Germany. As JRadier pointed out KL fed MP (they have an interline agreement with eachother).

Given the presence of both AF and AZ at MIA (UX's MAD-MIA is not aimed at getting a lot of connecting pax), I doubt Skyteam needs another MIA flight to cover Europe.


User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8783 times:

Quoting s4popo (Reply 3):
I think that the only ones that make sens are KL or DL. They can provide lots of connections on both ends.

Connections at both ends for KL or DL?
I think it is connections at just one end i.e. AMS and in that case it will more likely be KL.
MIA offers no connections for KL or DL. It is way too south... people would rather connect at ATL, DTW or JFK to get to other parts of USA. Also, I guess the only DL flights to MIA are from DL hubs which would result in double connections.


User currently offlinemigair54 From Spain, joined Jun 2007, 1694 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 8720 times:

I really can´t see anyone operating the route in a near future...

If KLM left Martinair to operate the route it´s because it´s mainly fot holiday makers and not very high yield pax, so, even then Martinair cease operations, so KLM is not going to start for Sure...

AA--I don´t think so codesharing with IB or BA it´s much easier.

DL--maybe B767 but no feeder network afert MIA so I dont think so again, having plenty of flight to the USA or even via CDG with AF......


This is a clear example of cooperation between an airline alliance, If nobody offers direct (other alliances) link it´s better to operate with 1 stop and rely on partners than open an unprofitabe route and loss money.......


User currently offlines4popo From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 261 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8292 times:

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 8):
Connections at both ends for KL or DL?
I think it is connections at just one end i.e. AMS and in that case it will more likely be KL.
MIA offers no connections for KL or DL. It is way too south... people would rather connect at ATL, DTW or JFK to get to other parts of USA. Also, I guess the only DL flights to MIA are from DL hubs which would result in double connections.

I stand corrected. When I was thinking about the DL feed at MIA, I was simply taking into account the number of flights they have. The double-connections argument is very valid. I'm sure they would be able to drive traffic through MIA, but at yields that would make the route unprofitable. Actually, the more I think about this route, the less it makes sense.   


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 8261 times:

Quoting s4popo (Reply 10):
I'm sure they would be able to drive traffic through MIA,

Doubt it very much. Pax are very wary of double connections.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4268 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7771 times:

If the route will be restarted, can a B757 do the trick? AA? But I guess it doesn't have the range to cover this crossing?


"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineBrouAviation From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 985 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7638 times:

It's obvious the most traffic on this route comes from drugdealers, and they prefer private jets, so how about NetJets or OpenSkies jumping in?   


Never ask somebody if he's a pilot. If he is, he will let you know soon enough!
User currently offlineairbuseric From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 4268 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7604 times:

Quoting BrouAviation (Reply 13):
It's obvious the most traffic on this route comes from drugdealers, and they prefer private jets, so how about NetJets or OpenSkies jumping in?

   Demand on the MIA-AMS sector shouldn't be a problem then



"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
User currently offlineB738FlyUIA From Kazakhstan, joined Dec 2009, 556 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7222 times:
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And what about VS? As they send the B744 for the Checks...

User currently offlinepaneuropean From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 882 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7215 times:

My optimism by saying that there obviously is a demand for the route is based on the fact MP and also KL/NW shortly have flown the route daily. Besides, DUS, FRA, MUC, ZRH, MAD, CDG, LHR have connections with MIA( This is the first time in many years the AMS service is totally axed.

Martinair flew to FLL, MIA, TPA and MCO at the same time in the ninetees. Therefore I believe there still is demand, however the leisure markets has possibly moved to ther destinations.... I did mention Arkefly as a possible candidate moving to the Floridian market however. They fly TATL to the Caribbean and are starting seasonal flights to Toronto.

Check out the glorydays of Martinair!

Pan



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-rokJZ-VGA


User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3327 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 5892 times:

I recall reading something along the lines of MP axing AMS-MIA because the premium passengers needed to make the route work were put off by MP's lack of a premium product. They chose to focus on MCO instead because they can better cater to the leisure market rather than the mixed leisure and business market that is MIA.

Rumor had it that DL was going to start the route any day now, but it's been six months since PH-MCL left MIA for the last time, and we've yet to hear any updates.


User currently offlinesflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1183 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5552 times:

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 8):
Connections at both ends for KL or DL?
I think it is connections at just one end i.e. AMS and in that case it will more likely be KL.
MIA offers no connections for KL or DL. It is way too south... people would rather connect at ATL, DTW or JFK to get to other parts of USA. Also, I guess the only DL flights to MIA are from DL hubs which would result in double connections.
Quoting s4popo (Reply 10):
I stand corrected. When I was thinking about the DL feed at MIA, I was simply taking into account the number of flights they have.

There's plenty of connections available at MIA just from a simple interline agreement with AA or any other airline that flies into MIA which interlines for which ever airline wants to start it. Again, AMS's problem is yields.


User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5325 times:

Quoting sflaflight (Reply 18):
There's plenty of connections available at MIA just from a simple interline agreement with AA or any other airline that flies into MIA which interlines for which ever airline wants to start it.

Can you please explain your logic as to why anybody will fly all the way south to MIA from Europe if their final destination is somewhere else in USA???


User currently offlineDTWLAX From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5325 times:

Quoting sflaflight (Reply 18):
There's plenty of connections available at MIA just from a simple interline agreement with AA or any other airline that flies into MIA which interlines for which ever airline wants to start it.

Can you please explain your logic as to why anybody will fly all the way south to MIA from Europe if their final destination is somewhere else in USA???


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32703 posts, RR: 72
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5323 times:

Quoting paneuropean (Reply 2):
Both are poor O and D markets

Really? Miami-Amsterdam is one of the largest unserved markets between the U.S. Europe, alongside Chicago-Athens and Boston-Brussels.

If its a poor O&D market, well, then there is no hope for anything else.

Somebody will fill the gap between Miami and Amsterdam in due time. It only took two years for Milan to come back.



a.
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3412 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 5078 times:

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 20):
Can you please explain your logic as to why anybody will fly all the way south to MIA from Europe if their final destination is somewhere else in USA???

Mileage junkie?  



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineTalaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5016 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 21):
Really? Miami-Amsterdam is one of the largest unserved markets between the U.S. Europe, alongside Chicago-Athens and Boston-Brussels.

If its a poor O&D market, well, then there is no hope for anything else.

Somebody will fill the gap between Miami and Amsterdam in due time. It only took two years for Milan to come back.

The thing is, take Athens-Chicago. The amount of connections pax can make throughout all of Europe's hubs is crazy and there is no backtracking. Maybe now that OA/A3 are merging we might see some new routes in the mid-term but I guess that for the big players at ORD (AA and UA), connecting via their partner hubs is more than enough. I know that, for instance, IB has a lot of connecting ATH pax in to their US services and so does BA I'm sure.

Now to the AMS-MIA, it's the same thing. Because of AMS position in the north of Europe you have CDG, FRA, LHR and MAD all with several daily flights into MIA and that make for natural connections. I'm sure KL knows that their is a lot of potential for the market but just thinks that their planes fare better elsewhere and that AF does the job for them. Whenver they decide that the route ranks first in their list of yields for new routes, you will most definitely see the flying dutchman back in Florida. No doubts about that.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32703 posts, RR: 72
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 4975 times:

Quoting Talaier (Reply 23):
I'm sure KL knows that their is a lot of potential for the market but just thinks that their planes fare better elsewhere and that AF does the job for them. Whenver they decide that the route ranks first in their list of yields for new routes, you will most definitely see the flying dutchman back in Florida. No doubts about that.

I don't disagree with you. In this market especially, it might not make sense. And especially with the plethora of new European service MIA is seeing this year, KLM should hold back.

But KLM/Delta will return to the market in due time.



a.
25 peanuts : I have my doubts about seeing the flying dutchman back in Florida. However, SkyTeam will be back, with a B767. DL fits that bill. When? Who knows. MI
26 MAH4546 : An Air France A320 that departs at 8AM and arrives at 10PM does not provide any such connections. SkyTeam does, however, provide connections onto Mex
27 Jacobin777 : Alongside ORD-ATH, I see no reason why AA can't start MIA-AMS....at least seasonal......
28 OB1504 : As Mark mentioned, AM's MEX-MIA-MEX times coordinate well with the European arrival and departure times. Even moreso if AV/TA choose to join SkyTeam
29 MAH4546 : Same reason AA could not last on MIA-FRA: the market is so extremely balanced on Netherlands-originating traffic that passengers prefer flying the lo
30 sflaflight : because the US is a huge country and one can connect easily through MIA for TPA, MCO, IAH, MSY, etc... Though, my comment was not US-centric. Connect
31 Post contains images bjorn14 : I think AA would have difficulty competing with KL for European pax. as KL goes N/S to most places in the Caribbean that you would have to cx with AA.
32 AirIndia : EK could serve MIA thru AMS. AMS falls on the gc route to MIA from DXB. EK has the potential to serve MIA with a lot of middle eastern leisure traffic
33 OB1504 : Now there's a possibility! And EK has oft been said to be looking at MIA in its future expansion plans.
34 MSYtristar : DL with a 763ER seems like a good starting point for the market, assuming they'd be interested. I agree that it is likely a market that needs to have
35 Post contains images Jacobin777 : ...true, but I think ORD-ATH would have the Chicago-originating traffic. At least during the summer. Given the SkyTeam connections, it would be quite
36 AirIndia : Thats true. But i dnt think MIA has priority over say ORD or IAD. But one can never say.........
37 MAH4546 : MIA probably does not, but MIA probably has priority over everything but ORD and IAD.
38 Talaier : Exactly how big is Delta in Miami? As to MIA being a hub, it's potential decreased heavily once pax were forced to enter the US even if connecting, w
39 MAH4546 : It's potential? MIA is a hub, MIA is a major connecting point between Europe and the Americas and despite all the hassles that some travelers might f
40 LJ : KL uses MEX as its gateway to Mexico. Furthermore PTY is KLs gateway to Central America and Colombia. Thus why sponsoring interline when you have alr
41 Talaier : Exactly, I was only referring to KL, pardon my lack of clarity. Basically the only big markets that can support sustained front cabins into MIA from
42 MAH4546 : Yes, it absolutely is. MIA is connected to more cities in Europe and more cities in the Americas today than ever before, and continues to see a signi
43 peanuts : Mostly from a OneWorld perspective. MIA has very little significance to the other alliances, from a connecting perspective. AF/KL have great access t
44 OA412 : Indeed and I think this would be a great summer seasonal route for AA.
45 MAH4546 : You'd be surprised at how much of Lufthansa and Air France's MIA traffic interlines to the Caribbean and Latin America. Lufthansa sends most of its C
46 sflaflight : Maybe from your IB perspective, but most certainly not true as MIA is one of the top growing hubs in the US. MIA is adding more new service from Euro
47 JasonCRH : just a side note, IAH is one of the BIGGEST, if not THE biggest, premium markets for European airlines.... [quote=Talaier,reply=41]Exactly, I was only
48 Talaier : I was talking of MIA as a hub for Central American and Caribbean destinations for passengers coming from Europe. I do acknowledge that obviously Miam
49 B752OS : If that is indeed true about Houston, it's worth asking if that is as a total market? Or on a carrier basis? Because EWR/JFK-Europe has a lot more ca
50 MAH4546 : As a percentage of total traffic, absolutely it is. In absolute numbers? It's still a little behind the others. There is far more premium capacity be
51 DTWLAX : Do you have evidence to support your statement? What is your source?
52 MAH4546 : I have evidence that I won't be sharing. If you choose not to believe it, fine, but those are the facts. There are others with access to this databas
53 Post contains images JasonCRH : absolutely agree 100%!
54 skyguyB727 : I'm surprised that no one mentioned that NW used to fly MIA-AMS with a DC-10. The service didn't last terribly long.
55 paneuropean : Well, I did!(in a way)
56 MAH4546 : It last about 4-5 years. It did so well initially that it was upgraded to a KLM MD11, but then it started to fade. It was hard to compete with Martin
57 OB1504 : And now the irony is that MP is out of the market completely.
58 bobnwa : Also ironic that KLM owns 100% of Martinair, and it was KLM's decision to cancel the Martinair flight AMS-MIA. Since it would be a joint venture flig
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