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Lufthansa Pilots Call Fresh Round Of Strikes  
User currently offlineSevernaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1397 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6417 times:

According to Vereinigung Cockpit, LH and the VC didn't come to an agreement over pay and job security.

13-16 April are the new dates set for a strike.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cffd90ca-35b1-11df-963f-00144feabdc0.html

I'm wondering if this is concerning 'only' the LH, 4U and LHC pilots, or as well pilots from the subsidiaries like LX?


Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9170 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6326 times:

That concerns only the three mentioned carriers, the strike covers Germany only.LX is an independent conmpany in Switzerland owned by LH.

The pilots still want to have an influence on company strategy which they cannot get. This is a matter strictly for the board and the supervisory board. The point is, one member of the supervisory board - on the "workers§ side, is a captain., so they actually have what they want. With the exception of course, that he is only one of 20. The supervisory board has 210 members on the "capital" side and 10 on the "workers" side. The chairman has 2 votes.


The main issue is that LH retired, or will retire all 50 seaters and move up to 70, 90 and 110 seaters on the feeder services. The pilots fear that this together with the fact that smaller carriers bought up by LH will take over European mainline services with threaten their jobs.

Typical German negative thinking which one would not expect from people in this salary category. LH simply reacts to the market conditions making ALL jobs in the holding safer, those jobs in mainline as well as the feeder services. OIf the pilots would have it their way, they would face a much unhealthier company in a few years time with all the negative eeffects on thei job security.

The pilots shpould kick out the present leaders of their union, Cockpit harms the company and Cockpits harms the jobs of all LH people and, speaking for myself, these ....ers jeopardize my savings part I pot up in LH shares.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineepa001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4705 posts, RR: 38
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6293 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
The pilots shpould kick out the present leaders of their union, Cockpit harms the company and Cockpits harms the jobs of all LH people and, speaking for myself, these ....ers jeopardize my savings part I pot up in LH shares.

Good post PanHam. Now I understand the background of this conflict a lot better. And I agree with your conclusion. LH is reacting to the changed market conditions and is securing overall more jobs. That some of the victims would be some pilots is regrettable, but also understandable I guess.

And a strike is hurting everyone in a disproportioned manner.   See what happens at BA at the moment.  


User currently offlineSevernaya From Russia, joined Jan 2009, 1397 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6265 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
That concerns only the three mentioned carriers, the strike covers Germany only.

Thanks for the clarification.



Всяк глядит, да не всяк видит.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9170 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6206 times:

just to clarify a typing error - the supervisory board has 20 - in words twenty members only, 10 on each side with the chairman Juergen Weber having 2 votes.

@ epa001

I even doubt that one pilot of the present mainline force of 4500 captains and first officers will lose her/his job if they trust in management. LH management has proven over the past decade or more that they have steered the company through heavy weather far better than most other airline management- LH is an established benchmark carrier. I hope that the management will fight this out.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineepa001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4705 posts, RR: 38
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6149 times:
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Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):
LH management has proven over the past decade or more that they have steered the company through heavy weather far better than most other airline management- LH is an established benchmark carrier. I hope that the management will fight this out.

Yes they have done a really good job over the years. It is also one of the reasons why I prefer to fly with SQ or LH within the Star Alliance. And I do not fly outside the Star Alliance.   So I am hoping with you and the management that they will fight this out to their advantage and I hope that the passengers trust in LH's services will not be harmed.

[Edited 2010-03-22 08:10:19]

User currently offlineYOWza From Canada, joined Jul 2005, 4865 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5733 times:

If LH pilots are worried about being replaced by bigger feeder flights how come Germanwings and LHC are also going on strike?

YOWza

[Edited 2010-03-22 11:22:25]


12A whenever possible.
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2748 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5620 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
The pilots fear that this together with the fact that smaller carriers bought up by LH will take over European mainline services with threaten their jobs.

Typical German negative thinking which one would not expect from people in this salary category.

You seem to imply that these fears are irrational. One simply needs to look at United Air Lines to see that these fears are not irrational. United has about 1,500 pilots that are out of jobs, because the company removed 94 737s from service, while bringing in more CRJ-700s and E-170s, which are operated by other airlines under the United Express brand.

Why shouldn't Lufthansa pilots fight to ensure a similar situation cannot occur to them?



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineBA0284 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 299 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5422 times:

Does anyone know what sort of flights LH cancel during these times? Or even what flights they keep running?
I'm returning to BHX from MUC on the 13th...great luck eh!

Thanks

BA0284


User currently offlineAirportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5402 times:

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 7):
Why shouldn't Lufthansa pilots fight to ensure a similar situation cannot occur to them?

Because the airline is doing what is in its best interest financially, not whats in the best interest financially for the pilots.



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2748 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5364 times:

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 9):

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 7):
Why shouldn't Lufthansa pilots fight to ensure a similar situation cannot occur to them?

Because the airline is doing what is in its best interest financially, not whats in the best interest financially for the pilots

And the union is supposed to do what's in the best interest of it's members........the pilots.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8232 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5172 times:

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 10):
And the union is supposed to do what's in the best interest of it's members........the pilots.

Which is shortsighted and a very untiquated mode of operation. These days the Unions should be working to do what's best for the airline because a good and healthy company will create jobs in the long term while a unhealthy one will lose jobs and in most cases go out of business.


User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2748 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5071 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
Which is shortsighted and a very untiquated mode of operation.

Says you.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
These days the Unions should be working to do what's best for the airline because a good and healthy company will create jobs in the long term while a unhealthy one will lose jobs and in most cases go out of business.

Do you think the union wants to put the airline out of business? That would be bad for every pilot, and would be a failure of the union's duty. What they want is a stronger contractual agreement that Lufthansa won't outsource their jobs. After all, a healthy growing company won't do them any good if they aren't the ones flying the airplanes.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineJasonCRH From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 293 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5054 times:

Good post!!! all you need to do is look at the major big 3 us automakers to see what happens.. .does LH/ its pilots want that? NO!!!!

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
uoting Alias1024 (Reply 10):
And the union is supposed to do what's in the best interest of it's members........the pilots.

Which is shortsighted and a very untiquated mode of operation. These days the Unions should be working to do what's best for the airline because a good and healthy company will create jobs in the long term while a unhealthy one will lose jobs and in most cases go out of business.



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Quoting PanHAM,reply=1:

Sorry PanHam, that is the biggest piece of nonsense you have posted up to now. You obviously have a real psychological problem regarding Lufthansa pilots. I don't care what you think about these pilots, but please stop posting these lies about pilots still want to have an influence on company strategy. This has never been a demand by the Vereinigung Cockpit. The whole dispute comes down to one point, the "KTV". A contract (still valid and being broken by LH-Management for some time now and a reason why Lufthansa Cityline is flying EMB-190s with strange paintings) signed in 1992, a time when Lufthansa was almost bankrupt. This contract states for example that planes with more than 70 seats have to be flown by Lufthansa-Passage-Pilots. The Vereinigung Cockpit has admitted that this part of the contract needs an overhaul. They have made a perfectly good offer to Lufthansa regarding this, but the truth of the matter is that Lufthansa-Management does not want a new contract at all. Since
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User currently offlinebobbyskipper From Germany, joined Jun 2008, 14 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5038 times:

@ PanHam. You obviously have a real psychological problem regarding Lufthansa pilots. I don't care what you think about these pilots, but please stop posting that nonsense about pilots still wanting to have an influence on company strategy via the supervisory board. This has never been a demand by the pilots or the Vereinigung Cockpit.

The whole dispute comes mainly down to one point, the "KTV". A contract (still valid and being broken by LH-Management for some time now and for example a reason why Lufthansa Cityline is flying ERJ-190s with strange paintings) signed in 1992, a time when Lufthansa was almost bankrupt. This contract states for example that planes with more than 70 seats have to be flown by Lufthansa-Passage-Pilots. The Vereinigung Cockpit has admitted that this part of the contract needs an overhaul. They have made a perfectly good offer to Lufthansa regarding this, but the truth of the matter is that Lufthansa-Management does not want a new contract at all, since it makes their job a little harder. Strangely enough, even with this contract Lufthansa has made an enormous amount of profit over the last couple of years. Even in 2009, a year where most airlines made a huge loss, Lufthansa managed an operative profit of 130 million €. See http://reports.lufthansa.com/2009/ar...lopment/operatingresult.html?cat=n

So is this contract such a bad thing? The Vereinigung Cockpit and its members only want contracts being followed. If a contract needs renegotiation, that is what should be done. But this LH management just sees this contract as taking influence on management decisions and stops negotiating. Furthermore it is breaking the contract and therefore causing this dispute.

PanHam wrote:"LH management has proven over the past decade or more that they have steered the company through heavy weather far better than most other airline management- LH is an established benchmark carrier. I hope that the management will fight this out."

Sorry, but not only LH management has done a good job. Lufthansa would not be so successfull if it wasn't for its staff. And this is the part where this management has made alot of big mistakes in the past years. Just talk to the ground staff, flight attendants, mechanics and pilots. They will give you some interesting facts.

And by the way, some very bad LH management decisions have cost Lufthansa billions of € in the last 10 years. For example, "Sky Chefs" and "British Midlands". Sorry to stain your perfect LH management picture.

Yes, times are tough now. But please PanHam and others, stop whining and painting black doom scenarios about Lufthansa's future. The company will do fine if this managemant starts realizing that the staff is the most important asset it has. Only well trained and fully motivated staff will stand 100% behind their management and their company in the future. This is the time to take the chance to make Lufthansa a real "quality airline". It will definetly not happen if this management continues to work against their staff (not only the pilots). This management is harming the company more than the pilots.

P.S. Another thing which is debated here so often: Lufthansa Pilot Salary.
Pilots salary at Lufthansa only makes up 4% of total operating cost for each flight. I know not only PanHam would be happy to see those pilots earn 50% less. But that would never save Lufthansa or any other airline going bust. Just look to the U.S.


User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4999 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 11):
Which is shortsighted and a very untiquated mode of operation. These days the Unions should be working to do what's best for the airline because a good and healthy company will create jobs in the long term while a unhealthy one will lose jobs and in most cases go out of business.

Doing whats best for the pilots does not exlclude doing whats best for the company. Ihe company is on the wa to bankcrupcty the best thing for the pilots may to save the company.

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlineAAEXP From Brazil, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4977 times:

Quoting bobbyskipper (Reply 14):
still valid and being broken by LH-Management

If you have one side breaking a legally valid contract, the forum for such dispute is the courts and not a strike, so there must be something more to this?

Quoting bobbyskipper (Reply 14):
Pilots salary at Lufthansa only makes up 4% of total operating cost for each flight.

Do we have any comparison to major competitors or any industry benchmarks to evaluate this percentage?


User currently offlineSQ325 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 1451 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4916 times:

Oh my god here we go again!!!!
With more than 3 weeks to go I still hope for an agreement.
Start bashing LH Pilots with your knowledge from the german print media which btw has on of their largest customers affected in this conflict LH!
Once again it is not about abot influence in strategic decisions it is about breaking valid contracts.
VC offered to take this whole part out of the negotiations to let it be proved by court.
LH declined the offer, and furthermore send people to the negotiations which had not been authorized to make an agreement


User currently offlineAAEXP From Brazil, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4865 times:

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 17):
Oh my god here we go again!!!!

Don't know if that was for me, but I am just asking questions in this forum. I have not read any German newspapers on the matter yet.

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 17):
Once again it is not about abot influence in strategic decisions it is about breaking valid contracts.

So why do the pilots not go to court and await a decision? They do not need LH's approval for that. There must be something more to this matter????

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 17):
furthermore send people to the negotiations which had not been authorized to make an agreement

Care to elaborate?


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9170 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4856 times:

[

Quoting bobbyskipper (Reply 14):
@ PanHam. You obviously have a real psychological problem regarding Lufthansa pilots. I don't care what you think about these pilots, but please stop posting that nonsense about pilots still wanting to have an influence on company strategy via the supervisory board. This has never been a demand by the pilots or the Vereinigung Cockpit.

Are ypou a pilot or a shrink, Bobbyskipper? Fact is I said that VC wants to have a word in strategy making by-passing the supoervisory board. I pointed out that the pilots have one seat in the board. VC wants to have the German contract made mandatory for all carriers owned by LH. That was ruled out by the judge in February.

You mention a contract from 1992. Beautiful, that was 18 years ago and hardly anyone in Germany outside the industry knew how to spell Ryanair, the term LCC had not been invented and 50 seaters were large at times when 30 seaters were still operated. I am not aware of any have psycological problems I might have, but I believe that business has to be state of the art at all times and state of the art right now is 70/90/100 seaters for feeder services. I know that the bobbies are on the way out, but there is an almost equal number of 319/320/321 on order and if they replace or are for growth will be dictated by the market at the end of the day and not by union contracts. If I'd run my business the same way I did in 1992 I wouldn't have one anymore.

LH is willing to give a job guarantee until 2012. The managemrnt does not give a dividend guarantee to shareholders and we see not a cent for 2009. The customers of LH do not give the company a guarantee that they will continbue to fly LH either, still you guys have a much safer job than most of your peers in the industry. I do not envy the salaries pilots get, I don't know where you got the impression from that I want you to get 50% less. No, I say you deserve it but you must also acknowledge that you are on the sunny side compared to the rest of the industry. So, please do me favour, leave the whining to the jet engines.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineSQ325 From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 1451 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4806 times:

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 18):
Oh my god here we go again!!!!

Don't know if that was for me

No it does not go against you, just about the general direction this thread will go.

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 18):
So why do the pilots not go to court and await a decision? They do not need LH's approval for that. There must be something more to this matter????

Because this will take years and until then the Managment can do whatever they like.
From what I heard VC will go to court anyhow just to make a point below this.

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 18):
Care to elaborate?

No! LH management send peolpe to negotiate with the VC (union). But were not allowed to make a signable agreement without speaking with their Bosses. The result is you talk a complete day about, let' s say Lufthansa Italia, you come to an agreement which is acceptable for the Union and the people on the other side of the table. The guys call the top floor and get called NO not good enough, start all over again.

@PAnHAM

the judge didn' t rule out the question of validity of the KTV outside germany. She ruled out that VC can ask for 10mio € for the pension fund for every plane flying for LHI but not operated by LH Pilots.
Esay move for the VC to accept this because the target is to operate these planes.


User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4796 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):

You mention a contract from 1992. Beautiful, that was 18 years ago and hardly anyone in Germany outside the industry knew how to spell Ryanair, the term LCC had not been invented and 50 seaters were large at times when 30 seaters were still operated. I am not aware of any have psycological problems I might have, but I believe that business has to be state of the art at all times and state of the art right now is 70/90/100 seaters for feeder services. I know that the bobbies are on the way out, but there is an almost equal number of 319/320/321 on order and if they replace or are for growth will be dictated by the market at the end of the day and not by union contracts. If I'd run my business the same way I did in 1992 I wouldn't have one anymore.

It doesn't matter how well Ryanair and other LCCs are doing at thie time. Fact is that this contract is still valid and managemant is breaking it for acouple of years now. The pilots only want LH to stop breaking a valid contract.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
The managemrnt does not give a dividend guarantee to shareholders and we see not a cent for 2009

Than sell your stocks, for goods sake.
The shareholders do nothing for the company. They only spend some money. The pilots do, and they do a great job. I know that because I work with them everyday.


User currently offlineAAEXP From Brazil, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4754 times:

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 20):
Because this will take years and until then the Managment can do whatever they like.

LH is a public company. It would not be wise for the executives to to knowingly break a valid contract. That would backfire badly in case the court found against LH. So it would seem that LH is quite comfortable with its position and believes the pilots do not have a case and this is probably why the pilots offered to leave that point aside.

Quoting SQ325 (Reply 20):
LH management send peolpe to negotiate with the VC (union). But were not allowed to make a signable agreement without speaking with their Bosses. The result is you talk a complete day about, let' s say Lufthansa Italia, you come to an agreement which is acceptable for the Union and the people on the other side of the table. The guys call the top floor and get called NO not good enough, start all over again.

There is probably more to this story. Doesn't make total sense to me.


User currently offlineAAEXP From Brazil, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 424 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4741 times:

Quoting Hirnie (Reply 21):
The shareholders do nothing for the company.

No shareholders, no company  


User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4699 times:

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 23):
No shareholders, no company

There are a lot of companies in the world without shareholdres. But in this respect you are right. The thing is, the shareholders only give their money, the workers really WORK for the company and do their best.


25 SQ325 : You are right there is a lot more. It does make more sense if you imagine the mangament isn' t interested in a solution. Their target is to destroy o
26 AAEXP : And they would be?
27 Post contains images PanHAM : we can't deny that we are German, can't we? , Well, at least I for my part have learned that flexibility is the key factor for success in business an
28 Mir : Again, look at the case of United. United created jobs, but those jobs were at the regionals instead of United, and were lower paying. Is that really
29 Post contains images Hirnie : Just look around in the next city and you will find plenty of small, privatly owned companies that are not beeing owned by shareholders. It's the vas
30 AAEXP : Don't be disingenuous. Whether you call them shareholders, quota holders, partners or business owners, they all OWN the company. That's my point. The
31 Hirnie : In fact it is different, but that's going off topic now. No, because nobody went to court in this respect because it's pretty obviously to see.
32 AAEXP : So you want to run LH as a "mom and pop store"? I agree, that would be going off topic. Trust me, if it was that obvious, LH would not knowingly brea
33 Post contains links yazoo : Lufthansa accedes to union demand for job security So LH gives in.. that sure will open pandora's box...
34 bobbyskipper : @AAEXP You are not getting the whole story because some things cannot be posted here. The VC-Union is not taking this to court yet because it is still
35 Post contains images bobbyskipper : @PanHam Don't worry, my driving skills are good. And I am happy to hear that you don't have a problem with pilots salary at LH. Quote PanHam: "One mor
36 rafaelyyz : It wasn't arrogant at all, if knew anything about finance or at least economics.
37 AAEXP : Do we have a short list of the terms of the agreement?
38 kl911 : How can you call that arrogant? It's logic that investors want a return on their investment. Without them there would be no Lufthansa and no LH pilot
39 earlyNFF : Dear Mr. Bigmouth PanHAM, you are the most typical one. You know everything BETTER, of course. Another typical teutonic sickness, envy at its best! A
40 AAEXP : Instead of this mud throwing, does anyone care to list the points that were agreed upon?
41 earlyNFF : At the moment there is nothing agreed upon. The so called "offer" is just eyewash for the public, nothing else.
42 ZRH : Actually is totally inapprehensible what these pilots do. They are amongst the best paid.
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