heathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 944 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 2 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5103 times:
Hi guys. I've been searching online for the most up to date CP route maps before the merger, but I can't seem to find anything. Any help would be appreciated. Regards,
Rudi
heathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 944 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4886 times:
thanks! Got the info I was looking for. It's a shame to see Canada's flights now. Good luck flying out of YDQ, YSM, YHY, YPE, or Watson Lake to anywhere in Canada! No intra-island flying on Vancouver Island either. It really is a shame....
ABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 834 posts, RR: 3 Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4449 times:
Wow talk about a way to use up time! I sat here for the last 45 min looking at the "Orange is Beautiful" site. A blast from the past for me. Since my frequent travels to YVR had me exposed to both CP and PW then CAI. I was in YVR shortly after the merger and the employees seemed thrilled at the new company. While working in ELP at HP we had the ground contract for CP fuel stops on their way to/from Mexico to YWG and YYC. The flight crews and dispatchers were always pleasent to work with. I hated to see the company merge with AC.
JD CRPXE
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21498 posts, RR: 24 Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4211 times:
Quoting heathrow (Reply 2): Good luck flying out of YDQ, YSM, YHY, YPE, or Watson Lake to anywhere in Canada!
YSM and YHY have scheduled service to both YEG andn YZF on local carriers. YDQ has service to YVR on Central Mountain Air and it's less than an hour's drive to YXJ where AC Jazz has 3 daily nonstops to YVR. Central Mountain Air also has a daily nonstop from YXJ to both YYC andn YEG. Many communities much larger than those in both Canada and the US have no scheduled air service at all..
Watson Lake lost it's last scheduled service long ago. Why serve points with such small populations if it's not profitable?
sflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1182 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 3830 times:
What were Attaché business flights CP950-999? Were they all business jets à la PrivatAir/Open skies? I do not remember those flights at all.
kiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8435 posts, RR: 14 Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3711 times:
Quoting sflaflight (Reply 6): What were Attaché business flights CP950-999? Were they all business jets à la PrivatAir/Open skies? I do not remember those flights at all.
733s ( I bet you didnt know that CP ever had those ! ) in an all business layout. From what I remember they lasted for a very short time dedicated to YVR-YVR-YUL .
SSTsomeday From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 1276 posts, RR: 1 Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 3591 times:
I loved CP's free spirit, along with their audaciously awful orange paint scheme. Horrifying!
In that time of Canadian regulation when the government clearly favored government-owned Air Canada, granting it all the lucrative, busiest routes (Frankfurt, London, Paris, YYZ-LAX, YYZ-MIA, the Caribean) - CP Air got the leftovers that Air Canada didn't want; the exotic destinations (Tokyo, Sydney, Amsterdam, LIMA!!...), and operated them profitably as a private company. It was an extremely unfair playing field, but they made it work for them.
I always respected them, though I never had the opportunity to fly them until very late in the game when they were Canadian Airlines, and I think the takeover had already happened though they still had their own brand for a little while.
Very sorry to see them get absorbed. Thank God for Westjet.
Macsog6 From Singapore, joined Jan 2010, 477 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3435 times:
Used to fly CX from HKG to YVR and connect to DFW on CP. Was always glad to see CP as the services was much better than the American carriers and on par with CX. They made you feel really special.
They were an original OW member, IIRC, and I have long suspected that Ottawa put the knife in CP to ensure that AC and *A survived in Canada, a counrty that really deserves more choice than they presently have. Westjet is good, but they are not CP.
Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
avion660 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 196 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3434 times:
Quoting KL808 (Reply 1): Wow talk about a way to use up time!
Yeah, me too!
But help me out here CP fans. I remember seeing loads of CP at LGW in the early 80's.. they were my favourite colour scheme (maybe along with the BN 747's and earlier Western DC10's). How come I cannot see any mention of CP in the timetables? There are plenty of CP photos on the database here at Airliners, and even a nice obvious DC10 shot on the CP site homepage. Was there a separate timetable, or are pages missing?
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4281 posts, RR: 36 Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3129 times:
Quoting sflaflight (Reply 6): What were Attaché business flights CP950-999? Were they all business jets à la PrivatAir/Open skies? I do not remember those flights at all
The Attache flights flew most transcons, YYZ/YOW/YUL nonstop to YEG/YYC/YVR, using both B737-300s and B737-200s. They left from dedicated lounges and were configured in an F/J configuration, all 2x2, no Y class. It was in response to AC's Executive class on domestic wide-body flights.
Quoting avion660 (Reply 11): How come I cannot see any mention of CP in the timetables?
When the Canadian Government divided up the earth, AC got the most desirable routes, of which the UK was best. CP was not allowed scheduled services to the UK at all. They were however allowed charter flights anywhere in the world. So the pictures you see of CP in the UK, France and Germany were all charters.
It was not until CP bought Wardair, (who held UK rights) that they started scheduled flights to the UK.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
McMax From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 296 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 3072 times:
Wow! What a great site--as others have said, what a wonderful way to while away a good hour! I used to fly CP from LAX and SFO up to YVR on those 737-200s. For the short-haul flight, I was always impressed with the level of service--hot food, tea/coffee service, playing cards, etc. I do miss CP.
A question on that CP history site--I saw a livery of CP that I had never seen before. It was on the Fleet page for 737s. It has a couple photos of a CP 737-200 in what I would call a Royal Air Maroc-like livery of green and dark CP orange stripes on the fuselage, and a similar reproduction on the tail (with the CP logo). When was this livery used?
avion660 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2007, 196 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2918 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 12): When the Canadian Government divided up the earth, AC got the most desirable routes, of which the UK was best. CP was not allowed scheduled services to the UK at all. They were however allowed charter flights anywhere in the world. So the pictures you see of CP in the UK, France and Germany were all charters.
It was not until CP bought Wardair, (who held UK rights) that they started scheduled flights to the UK.
Thanks for the explanation...I had no idea. Wow, lots of charters!
heathrow From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2005, 944 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2357 times:
Wow! I didn't expect so many posts!
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4): YSM and YHY have scheduled service to both YEG andn YZF on local carriers.
YSM has flights to YZF and YXD not YEG unfortunantly. YHY has an alright link to YZF but it's still hard to get anywhere else in Canada from these destinations
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4): YDQ has service to YVR on Central Mountain Air and it's less than an hour's drive to YXJ where AC Jazz has 3 daily nonstops to YVR.
When you're already driving 2 hours to fly, another hour isn't favourable! YPE has no service, so it's drive to YQU or YDQ.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4): Watson Lake lost it's last scheduled service long ago. Why serve points with such small populations if it's not profitable?
For the people of Watson Lake (and anyone surrounding), I'm sure it was convenient to have supplies flown directly in insteasted of the long drive from Whitehorse!
It's only now when I'm really starting to travel around Canada that I realise how good CP was, and the lack of option sucks!
lasbagman From Canada, joined Dec 2001, 366 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2146 times:
I worked for Canadian Holidays, We were the charter/leisure division of Canadian Airlines. I was based in PSP and LAS.
Our charters actually made tons of money for the company, When open skies between USA and Canada happened in the mid 90's, that is when the bleed began. It was a great company to work for and I do miss them.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21498 posts, RR: 24 Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1972 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 12): They were however allowed charter flights anywhere in the world. So the pictures you see of CP in the UK, France and Germany were all charters.
Not everywhere in the world. The governments of many other countries did not permit charters, most Asian and South American countries being good examples. I don't believe Australia permitted charters either. Many of those countries still don't permit charters.
Until CP obtained scheduled rights to the UK, during peak periods CP (like Wardair until they acquired scheduled rights) often had several charter flights a day to various UK airports, including a few that had no scheduled service from Canada.. For practical purposes they were just like scheduled flights. The only significant difference was that they couldn't be displayed in reservations systems along with scheduled flights and had to be booked through travel agents, and connections to/from scheduled flights at either end required separate tickets. And you couldn't sell one way fares.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 12): Quoting sflaflight (Reply 6):
What were Attaché business flights CP950-999? Were they all business jets à la PrivatAir/Open skies? I do not remember those flights at all
The Attache flights flew most transcons, YYZ/YOW/YUL nonstop to YEG/YYC/YVR, using both B737-300s and B737-200s. They left from dedicated lounges and were configured in an F/J configuration, all 2x2, no Y class
While J was 2-2, it used Y class seats with the middle seat unsold. On some aircraft, the middle seat back folded down to make a table. The same aircraft often operated regular Y class flights using all 6 seats across.
Quoting SSTsomeday (Reply 9): - CP Air got the leftovers that Air Canada didn't want; the exotic destinations (Tokyo, Sydney, Amsterdam, LIMA!!...), and operated them profitably as a private company.
Correct except for the "operated them profitably" part. CP almost never earned adequate profits and most years had losses rather than profits. The only reason CP Air survived as long as they did (and I'm glad they did since I worked for them, and then Canadian, for 25 years) was thanks to their huge Canadian Pacific Ltd. parent company's deep pockets. And of course they lost that advantage when CP Ltd. finally decided to cut their losses and sell the airline to Pacific Western Airlines in 1987.
It was difficult to operate profitably when you were treated as a second class citizen by your goverenment. For example, in 1974 the Canadian government awarded about 15 new transborder routes which had become available under the Canada-USA bilateral. All except one route went to AC. CP got YVR-LAX. And for many years CP was restricted to operating only 25% of the total capacity between major Canadian cities, and all flights had to turn around at YVR and YUL. For example, CP YVR-YYZ flights during those years all had to continue to YUL, whether there was any demand on the YYZ-YUL sector at that time of day or not. That resulted in widebodies including 747s and DC-10s operating routes like YVR-YYZ-YUL-YYZ-YVR. I recall a few CP 747 flights YVR-YYZ-YUL where YVR-YYZ had a good load but there were fewer than 50 passengers on the YYZ-YUL leg since it left about 9:30 PM. But the rules didn't permit the flight to terminate at YYZ. AC had none of those restrictions.
And not being able to turn around between YVR and YUL made it difficult to design competitive schedules. If memory correct, those restrictions lasted from 1969 at lesat through the 1970s. Prior to 1969, CP's access to the major Canadian transcon routes was even more restrictive ,initially only one flight a day in each directon starting in the late 1950s, later increased to 2 flights a day each way, again with the requirement that flights had to operate alll the way between YVR and YUL.
sflaflight From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 1182 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1929 times:
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 7): 733s ( I bet you didnt know that CP ever had those ! ) in an all business layout. From what I remember they lasted for a very short time dedicated to YVR-YVR-YUL .
No way! I didn't realize CP had 733. That is so cool!
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17): While J was 2-2, it used Y class seats with the middle seat unsold. On some aircraft, the middle seat back folded down to make a table. The same aircraft often operated regular Y class flights using all 6 seats across.
Another great piece of trivia. Interesting. Kind of like the new wave of Euro business class. Love the idea of the middle seat folding down to make a table.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21498 posts, RR: 24 Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1645 times:
Quoting sflaflight (Reply 18): Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 7):
733s ( I bet you didnt know that CP ever had those ! ) in an all business layout. From what I remember they lasted for a very short time dedicated to YVR-YVR-YUL .
No way! I didn't realize CP had 733. That is so cool!
CP took delivery of 5 733s in 1985 and early 1986. They were only operated for a year or so, and some were disposed of after only a few months. More had been ordered but they were cancelled. After the CP merger with Pacific Western was announced in early 1986 (which resulted in Canadian Airlines), they quickly disposed of the 733s to avoid complicating the fleet as they were adding many additional 732s from the CP/PW merger.
Interestingly, the 5 CP 733s were delivered in 3 different liveries. The first one arrived in the CP Air orange/red livery, the next two in the Attache llivery, and the last 2 in the very short-lived livery that reverted to the full Canadian Pacific name that replaced the orange. Not many aircraft made it onto that livery as the PW/CP merger was announced soon after the first few aircrfaft had been painted in that livery and further painting was stopped to avoid having to change it yet again to the Canadian livery.
All 5 CP 733s went to long-defunct Brazilian carrier VASP, and after various other operators, 4 of the 5 are now with Southwest. One was with Russian carrier KD Avia until they went banrupt and shut down last year.
The 5 CP 733s in original and most recent liveries.
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