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DIA Vs Stapleton  
User currently offlineJPuentes From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 48 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 12181 times:

I have been reading posts from 2001 about how stapleton would of done great, and how DIA was a mistake. well i want to know what people think now about the two airports.

Would stapleton handle 50 mil people? with same amount of delays?

Delays in stapleton compared to DIA

Has anyone changed there minds about DIA?

and if there would of been anything that could of made stapleton more efficient?

i wish i would of gotten a chance to see the airport in person. but in my mind they should of left a couple of runways just for GA aircraft.


thanx


If you can't convince them, confuse them
106 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2747 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 12076 times:

A number of years ago, I used to live in Denver.
That being said, I traveled too many times in and out of Stapleton, as well as DIA.
All I can remember about Stapleton is that it was almost always delayed. Departing as well as arriving. And the place continually crowded, and aesthetically, not at all really pleasing. The one thing it did have going for it was that it seemed like a short trip from door to airplane door. But I also can remember sitting on the runway for hours sometimes, waiting to take off. Don't have passenger stats but in 1994, last full year of operations, the movement of total aircraft was 557,680.
I've gone through DIA numerous times and continue to fly into and out from time to time.
Now with DIA, I flew in about 2 weeks after it opened. Remember it being a cold February night, but the flight arrived on time.
This new airport, I thought, looked simply magnificent, and I've been to quite a number of airports, and this is stll the one that I like the best for aesthetics, Although it has lots of people there, it feels roomy. It's massive, but movement through the airport is basically efficient (not counting security now, but before the security checks it was a breeze). Yes, I've been delayed from time to time, but it is usually factors not having to do anything to do with the airport. Although it may be a little long of a taxi to runway for takeoff, I rarely remember waiting for more than about 3 or 4 planes in from of us. So after many trips through DIA, I can say that it is much more efficient then Stapleton.
Last years DIA aircraft movements were 611,888, already about 9% more than the last full year at Stapleton.
Even with the proposed expansion onto the Rocky Mountain Arsenal, and new runways, I don't think Stapleton could have done anything near what DIA is currently doing with any sort of efficiency, and could not grow the way DIA can.
And the extra 15 minute or so extra drive is well worth the time, since I think it more than makes up for the delays that Stapleton continually had.

[Edited 2010-03-25 00:34:56]

[Edited 2010-03-25 00:37:20]

[Edited 2010-03-25 00:56:51]

[Edited 2010-03-25 00:57:26]

User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2940 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 12028 times:

The truth be told really is that all city centre airports days are numbered as primary operators. The fact that every airport becomes a political hot potato, especially if expansion is required, points to the difficulties in an evolving industry.

DIA was a great idea for Denver and has given it a facility that is truely world class.

Going backk and saying will it have worked at the old site is all truely hyperthetical and can not be proven either way, but there are so many curve balls that can be thrown in that would have affected the success of any city centre airport. Most likely , smooth operations would not be one of the outcomes 


User currently offlineairfrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2825 posts, RR: 42
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 11617 times:

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
I have been reading posts from 2001 about how stapleton would of done great, and how DIA was a mistake. well i want to know what people think now about the two airports.

The airport was fairly unpopular at the start, primarily because of the disaster that was the United automated baggage system. Keeping Stapleton probably would have resulted in CO sticking around, but it certainly would not have permitted WN to return to the airport. If the city where to move runways now, and add another terminal to Stapleton, it would easily equal what the Airport cost to build.

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
Would stapleton handle 50 mil people? with same amount of delays?

Not a chance. The airport was significantly constrained, and was the single worst hub in the United States (ie, it was what O'Hare is today).

(actually, O'Hare has improved a lot over what it used to be, but Stapleton was even worse).

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
Has anyone changed there minds about DIA?

It certainly has become the defining building of Colorado architecture wise, and E-470 has made access to the airport easy, except for those living in Downtown Denver.

To give you a idea, no one is blinking twice about the concept of investing 1 billion more into the airport for expansion. The airport can easily grow for the next 100 years and continue to be a engine for growth in Colorado without any NIMBY opposition.

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
and if there would of been anything that could of made stapleton more efficient?

There was a completing plan for a additional runway (which would have had a taxi from hell) as well as moving two runways. However, there was not much room for additional terminals and the airport was very landlocked. It never would have scaled to 50 million a year.

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):

i wish i would of gotten a chance to see the airport in person. but in my mind they should of left a couple of runways just for GA aircraft.

Stapleton is now one of the (according the post I read the) largest and most prestigious infill projects in the nation, a great return on that investment. In addition, there were covenants in place to ensure that the second DIA opened, Stapleton closed. This was to prevent a Mirabel/Montreal situation.


User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7772 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 11545 times:

Quoting airfrnt (Reply 3):
Stapleton is now one of the (according the post I read the) largest and most prestigious infill projects in the nation, a great return on that investment. In addition, there were covenants in place to ensure that the second DIA opened, Stapleton closed. This was to prevent a Mirabel/Montreal situation.

Stapleton was/is the only tract of land within the City/county of Denver that could be developed on any scale. The property and sales tax that all the new homes and businesses will generate is one of the major reasons why the City of Denver wanted to move the airport.


as for GA the Denver metro has 3 (4 if you count Boulder Muni) GA airports. That seems like fairly reasonable coverage for a metro area its size.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3203 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 11462 times:

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
I have been reading posts from 2001 about how stapleton would of done great,

What space cadet offered that opinion?? Haha

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
Delays in stapleton compared to DIA

The absolute worst. The runways were so close that simultaneous approaches weren't allowed. This problem was made even worse in IMC, and even further exacerbated during high-precision approaches - CAT-II and CAT-III.

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
Has anyone changed there minds about DIA?

No. It's become quite popular, actually. With nigh unlimited room for expansion, NIMBY (not in my back yard) almost never gets in the way of expansion projects as DIA sits out in the middle of nowhere. As far as I know, it's the only airport in the United States that is capable of having 4 simultaneous CAT-III approaches.

At current state, DIA has 6 runways but has enough room to make up to a total of 12. Further, there is room to make both Concourses D and E, as well as expand existing ones.

So, it's become quite popular in the eyes of the city of Denver. It's not run by an airport authority but the airport manager and staff have a good relationship with the local politicians and just the general public.

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
and if there would of been anything that could of made stapleton more efficient?

Build an additional runway which would have had a taxi of several miles. They did the right thing in shutting it down and building DIA.

While DIA was ridiculously unpopular in the beginning, it's now one of the best (if not THE best) and most modern facilities in the US.



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineBoeing1970 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11397 times:

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
I have been reading posts from 2001 about how stapleton would of done great, and how DIA was a mistake.

Stapleton was plagued by encroachment and an inefficient airfield layout and if they hadn't replaced it then, they'd be talking about replacing it now, DIA is one of the best ideas of the last 20 years. By todays standards, the airport came cheap. The runways alone would cost $6 billion today. The complaints about distance are unfounded. Its not that far. You had to get through some of the worst traffic in the Denver are to get to Stapleton. Took just as much time to get there.

[Edited 2010-03-25 09:54:47]

User currently offlineDenverDanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11360 times:

I'm originally from the Denver metro area and still here. I enjoyed growing up and seeing all the changes at Stapleton and the development of the new airport. I remember how juicy every tidbit was that you could find in the newspaper. I like the new airport, but miss Stapleton. Stapleton was interesting--all the layers of history. I don't think DIA is all that exciting. It's nice though. My favorite memory of Stapleton was the drive into the drop off/parking area, going up the ramps, being so close to see the airplanes (parked at A) and smelling the plane smell.

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
Delays in stapleton compared to DIA

Stapleton could be a mess to fly out of. Seems like the taxiing at DIA is not too bad and you don't have to wait behind too many planes to take off. I remember times at Stapleton that you'd be behind 6 or more planes, or you'd have to taxi all the way up north to the far runway. Seems like when the plane did take off, it would rocket up at a very high angle. Perhaps to reduce noise complaints? A comment my grandmother made when arriving one time in Denver was how SHORT the taxi time was to the gate. That was a plus for sure.

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
and if there would of been anything that could of made stapleton more efficient?

It would have cost quite a bit to upgrade the airport concourses and field layout. It sounds like it all became such a hassle to sort out that building a new airport was the answer. The land, or lack there of, that the airport had to work with was a major prohibitive factor. That and having the Arsenal on the north that couldn't be expanded onto.

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
Would stapleton handle 50 mil people?

Can't say. Maybe if it had been redone.

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
with same amount of delays?

I would say definitely not.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 4):
Stapleton was/is the only tract of land within the City/county of Denver that could be developed on any scale.

What about Lowry? Gates Rubber Plant? Those are both sizable, though I don't have the comparison numbers on them. There's quite a bit of open space and parks in Stapleton, so it's not like it was all used.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 4):
The property and sales tax that all the new homes and businesses will generate is one of the major reasons why the City of Denver wanted to move the airport.

Have you read this somewhere and if so, where? I don't think that was a reason behind the move. There was a progression of plans and failure of plans that led to the airport being where it is now. Stapleton being recycled I would think was more of an afterthought. The move resulted in the northeast part of the metro area being opened up to development as well as Stapleton redevelopment.

I remember that at the time DIA was being planned and constructed, the city was still recovering from the bust. The only construction going on in Denver was infrastructure replacement around downtown. The viaducts were torn down and Colfax and I-25 were being redone. LoDo wouldn't even start to get moving until 1993. There was plenty of space there for tax receipts to come from. I'm not sure that they were that certain of what would come out of Stapleton redevelopment-wise.

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
Has anyone changed there minds about DIA?

I never doubted it myself. But most of the adults I spoke to growing up were upset about the perceived boondoggle nature of the airport. Many didn't see the use of spending so much money. Of course now, it can be seen that we got a hell of a deal. But, a lot of money was wasted in the process, and it did go way over budget. People are naturally and perhaps rightly suspicious about large amounts of money being spent and on super projects like this. By the time DIA was nearing opening, there was quite a bit of unused space at Stapleton. Many didn't think the new airport was justified as it was when planning began for it.

[Edited 2010-03-25 10:15:06]

[Edited 2010-03-25 10:23:56]

User currently offlineAM744 From Mexico, joined Jun 2001, 1775 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11337 times:

Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
i wish i would of gotten a chance to see the airport in person. but in my mind they should of left a couple of runways just for GA aircraft.

Centennial Airport and others have that pretty much covered, thus Stapleton's land could be used for anything else that made more economic sense.


User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4499 posts, RR: 33
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11273 times:

One interesting fact about Stapleton vs. DIA is that when DIA opened, Stapleton had more gates (over 100; 105, I think?) than DIA did (88 at that point).

One thing that has improved at DIA since it opened are the fees, which are lower than they were the first few years. I remember lots of complaints on here about the high fees. The lower fees were one reason that Southwest returned. Had the fees remained really high, WN likely would not have returned and enplanements would be lower.

The fact that DIA is has declined in cost to use no doubt helps reduce the 'boondoggle' perception. As noted above, DIA works very well and offers the Rocky Mountain region a great hub facility for many years to come.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineJPuentes From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11219 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 5):
Quoting JPuentes (Thread starter):
I have been reading posts from 2001 about how stapleton would of done great,

What space cadet offered that opinion?? Haha

well i was reading things about stapleton process and thought it was kind of funny how they where all saying/agreeing that it was a waste of money to build that airport and how stapleton would of done just as well. just look up anything under stapleton

Quoting AM744 (Reply 8):
Centennial Airport and others have that pretty much covered, thus Stapleton's land could be used for anything else that made more economic sense.

well yeah but i thought it would of been fun to do some touch and goes there.....yeah centennial and jeffco have taken care of the GA need and they are far away enough to not disturb operations at DIA(not so much front range airport)



If you can't convince them, confuse them
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2753 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 11203 times:

Stapleton didn't have an underground military base and city, which will be used by the New World Order when the aliens arrive.

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Denver_Airport.html

These people get to vote   



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlineDIA77 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 705 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11178 times:

Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 7):
I'm originally from the Denver metro area and still here. I enjoyed growing up and seeing all the changes at Stapleton and the development of the new airport. I remember how juicy every tidbit was that you could find in the newspaper. I like the new airport, but miss Stapleton. Stapleton was interesting--all the layers of history. I don't think DIA is all that exciting. It's nice though. My favorite memory of Stapleton was the drive into the drop off/parking area, going up the ramps, being so close to see the airplanes (parked at A) and smelling the plane smell.

  

I grew up in the Denver area as well and I have very fond memories of Stapleton - I enjoyed seeing the UA DC-10s parked right next to MLK Blvd, the CO, UA, Frontier, and Western hubs (definitely a sight to see). That being said, DIA was absolutely necessary and Mayor Pena's push to get it built took a lot of foresight. I don't live in Denver anymore, but I'm there quite a bit for business and I love traveling through DIA. The airport seemed really expensive in the late 80s and early 90s prior to being built, but in hindsight it was a bargain.


User currently offlinetrigged From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11158 times:

My memories of Stapleton may be a little skewed since I was under 18 when I flew in and out of there, but I remember Stapleton being more convenient to negotiate once inside. I have a dislike for DIA because of the money issues and the design of the main building. Never knew why they would make a roof out of fabric where the snow can build up so much. I could only imagine what that roof will be like once the UV degradation takes its toll. Can you imagine what it would take to replace the entire roof? It may look cool, but it is not practical in the slightest, but that is just the engineer in me.

Functionality has its own beauty.


User currently offlineDiverDave From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 330 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11113 times:

I thought Stapleton had the potential to expand onto the Rocky Mountain Arsenal, and that became the basis of some lawsuits.

David


User currently offlineDenverDanny From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 263 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11098 times:

Quoting trigged (Reply 13):
Can you imagine what it would take to replace the entire roof?

I think it has to be replaced around every 20 years or so. So, it's coming up on the time to do that.

Quoting trigged (Reply 13):
It may look cool, but it is not practical in the slightest, but that is just the engineer in me.

The original design called for stepped glass pyramids. Not sure how practical that would be either during a hailstorm. And the tent roof did tear once during a storm. However, I like how much light it brings into the terminal. And it does have a shock and awe value for those coming up the train escalator. I never get tired of that. Something different.

I'm kind of wondering what's going to happen to the newly built solar array when a hailstorm comes through. I hope those things can tilt to protect themselves.


User currently onlinejsnww81 From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 2026 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 11027 times:

One of the things I remember most about Stapleton are the ridiculously short taxi times during non-peak times. If you landed from the east (which was pretty common), you turned off the runway and were literally at your gate - especially if you were on United, which used Concourses A and B right by the 8-26 runways. Departure was the same way - the threshold for 35L was right in front of the terminal building. You pushed back, turned onto the runway, and away you went.

If it was a peak time, forget it. Since the runways were right in front of the terminal, you wound up with 20 planes clogging the "alleys" between each concourse, waiting for their turn to take off. I never had to use the more distant departure runway (35R) but I imagine the taxi out there - over Sand Creek, Smith Road and I-70 - took much longer.

The terminal at Stapleton was hit or miss. United's concourses (A and B) were rebuilt in the late 1980s and were quite nice. I remember thinking they were so modern at the time... now I see pictures and they look very dated. Lots of smoked glass, sleek dark wall treatments and stainless steel. Continental's two concourses (C and D) were in worse shape, especially toward the end. The 'everyone else' concourse (E) was pretty modern as well, and had a rather odd setup with moving sidewalks one level above the gates. You walked along the upper level until you reached the "exit" for your gate, then went down a ramp or escalator the holding lounge.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 10942 times:

The only downside that DIA has is that the airport itself is so, so far away from the nearest major highways. 11 miles north of I-70 via Pena Blvd.


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3124 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 10819 times:

Quoting trigged (Reply 13):
Never knew why they would make a roof out of fabric where the snow can build up so much. I could only imagine what that roof will be like once the UV degradation takes its toll. Can you imagine what it would take to replace the entire roof? It may look cool, but it is not practical in the slightest, but that is just the engineer in me.

The engineer in you ought to look up the success of fabric tension roofs in use worldwide. Very practical and survivable. Munich Olympic Stadium (around since 1972), London's Millennium Dome, Georgia Dome in Atlanta are all important examples. Of course, there's the famous Hajj terminal at JED, dating from 1972. Still, not limited to warm weather cities, with fabric-tension arenas and stadia in Canada, Illinois, and Connecticut.

I remember reading that the DIA roof can withstand a reasonable sized tornado without catastrophic effect. That's more of a worry there than shedding heavy snow (which it's done countless times).

-Rampart


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2747 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10802 times:

It may be worth noting that as per the ACI 2009 ytd preliminary report, DEN is now the 4th busiest airport in the world when measured in terms of aircraft movement. Only ATL, ORD and DFW reported more aircraft movements. They ranked 5th in 2008, and surpassed LAX this last year.

http://www.aci.aero/cda/aci_common/d....jsp?zn=aci&cp=1-5-212-231_666_2__



Also, they remain in 10th busiest in the world in terms of passenger activity.

http://www.aci.aero/cda/aci_common/d...?zn=aci&cp=1-5-212-218-222_666_2__


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10690 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 18):
I remember reading that the DIA roof can withstand a reasonable sized tornado without catastrophic effect. That's more of a worry there than shedding heavy snow (which it's done countless times).

   Yesterday, the Travel Channel had a segment on how well the tent roof at DIA works out well. The fabric itself is as thin as a credit card. You can poke a hole in the roof and it won't tear at all from that point. It's a pretty sturdy and reliable piece of fabric.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7772 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10557 times:

Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 7):
What about Lowry? Gates Rubber Plant? Those are both sizable, though I don't have the comparison numbers on them. There's quite a bit of open space and parks in Stapleton, so it's not like it was all used.

And it'll certainly take another decade or two before the redevelopment of the Stapleton site is complete. The parks and open space do add value to the property. No family wants to buy a house in a neighborhood without a park. I also believe they are trying to work in a lot of elements of New Urbanism in that area as well.

Quoting DenverDanny (Reply 7):
Have you read this somewhere and if so, where? I don't think that was a reason behind the move

The book that mentioned it was purged a move or two ago. The story goes was that in the 1960s or 1970s various legislative changes made it more difficult for the City/County of Denver to annex new land. Something that the surrounding cities and towns could do quite easily -- Look at Aurora for example. As a result Denver was essentially land locked at a time it was more or less built out. It took a lot of work to get the land that DEN now sits on annexed into the City/County of Denver. And while the redevelopment of the Stapleton site wasn't one of the major reasons for wanting to build the new airport, the future tax revenues from it certainly helped in the cost calculation.



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10508 times:

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 21):
And it'll certainly take another decade or two before the redevelopment of the Stapleton site is complete.

Speaking of that, I might add, the old Stapleton ATC tower is still standing.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3411 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10494 times:

I think after Coloradans got over the sticker shock of $7B (and DIA=Doesn't Include Airplanes). They are for the most part pretty pleased with themselves. When you see a photo of DIA there is no doubt what airport you are looking at. I will admit the gate convience at Stapleton was far superior.

BTW, I remember when DIA was built WN said they would never go there because it was a very expensive airport. Yeah right.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2747 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 10429 times:

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 21):
As a result Denver was essentially land locked at a time it was more or less built out. It took a lot of work to get the land that DEN now sits on annexed into the City/County of Denver.

I recall some sort of election, that the voters approved, that allowed the City and County of Denver to annex the land from Adams County to get the land where DIA is now. I forgot if the election was statewide, or just limited to the local counties.
At any rate, Adams County got the Front Range Airport out of the deal.


25 point2point : LOL! And with everything going on these days, it looks like it's starting to happen.
26 caspian27 : As much as I miss Stapleton from a nostalgic point of view, it being the airport my earliest traveling memories formed around...there really is no co
27 airfrnt : Or enough room for them to build the next concourse to the south, and leave D, E and F alone (which appears to be what they are thinking right now).
28 AirframeAS : I live in Westminster, and it takes me 35-40 minutes to get to work at F9 via I-270 & I-70 to Pena (I-76 takes me out of the way a bit adding 5 m
29 airfrnt : E-470 drops you right on the airport door. It's about 20 minutes from my home in Boulder County.
30 caspian27 : To me, an extra 15-20 minutes commute isn't that bad since I only drive to/from DIA once every 3-4 days. I know there were some delays with this last
31 ADent : And $8.10 each way ($7.60 with EZPass) if you get on at 96th & US36. DIA has been pretty successful - though it has had to adapt (automated bagga
32 N9801F : If I'm not mistaken, the basic problem was that some of the runways at Stapleton were too close together. This meant that airlines could not conduct
33 DenverDanny : It's a feature of new urbanism projects to incorporate something from the site's past use into the new development. I just hope at some point we'll b
34 dfambro : Never used Stapleton, so no opinion there. DIA is great to transfer through (and as a United guy I've done that a bunch). I don't like it much as a de
35 UAL747DEN : You read correct, the Stapleton redevelopment project was/is highly successful. The Stapleton neighborhood is one of the most desirable urban areas i
36 DenverDanny : Well, maybe not on the United side. But Frontier was gone and Continental had drawn down its service. My dad picked me up from Concourse C after a fl
37 Post contains links trigged : Actually, in March 2003 there was a tear through in the roof due to snow. The engineer in me understands degradation of polymers when exposed to UV l
38 jsnww81 : This is true... I flew through Stapleton in March of 1993 on a Sun Country flight from DFW and we arrived into Concourse D. By then Continental was s
39 BlueF9A320 : Since I was only 10 the last time I flew through Stapleton, I have a question: were all the concourses able to be accessed without re-clearing securit
40 LU9092 : Ahh, that brought me back. Every now and then my parents would drive us to Stapleton just to watch airplanes. I remember walking right out on the con
41 Post contains images AirframeAS : No, the E470 is at the halfway point between DIA and I-70. And it costs !!!! (For thsoe who do not know, the E470 is a toll road.) Agreed. Do it 5x a
42 2H4 : I travel to Denver fairly often, and in my opinion, DIA needs light rail connecting it to downtown Denver. It would be SO much more enjoyable and con
43 airfrnt : I have a degree in engineering as well, from the University of Colorado. From my point of view, the success of the airport, as well as the roof is be
44 Post contains images JPuentes : its planned it should be completed by 2015 but its not light rail, I think its something bigger(as in not light lol ). i read in a different thread t
45 airfrnt : They are putting in "light rail", in this case, EMU heavy rail between Union Station in Denver and the Airport.
46 ikramerica : light rail is slow and intrusive to communities. standard rail is the way to go in open spaces like that, and elevated trains in urban areas that can
47 FiestaFlight : I was in Colorado much of the 80's. If I'm not mistaken, I remember one of the main concourses (UA or CO) getting COMPLETELY renovated in the early 90
48 JPuentes : I see what your saying but denver is not all that big and the train should run on existing rails and then run along I 70 and pena (not sure about all
49 bohica : One of the best moments in aviation history was the day Stapleton closed. Almost every time I arrived there we would sit in the penalty box waiting fo
50 Post contains links FLYjoe : No, you could only do it between Concourses A and B. Concourse A Plus where the UAX flights departed from required a shuttle bus over. I can't rememb
51 Post contains links and images MrSkyGuy : Quite a few years ago I got a burr up my chaps to read up and learn more about Denver Stapleton.. being a bit of an urban history buff, something abou
52 Post contains links JPuentes : wow I have been looking for something like this for almost two years, i bet many people would like to see these...I really never knew how Stapleton w
53 goDIA : As a Denver native and aircraft enthusiast, I am also nostalgic for old Stapleton. I flew out of there many times, and loved it. But DIA is awesome, a
54 FLYjoe : Was runway 18/36 ever used for commercial jet traffic? I would think only 18 would have been sparingly used for arrivals. I do remember seeing commute
55 Post contains images COS777 : Not quite- DEN can only do triple simultaneous approaches. 34L/34R are too close to do simultaneous approaches, so it is usually 34R and 35R/35L, how
56 Post contains images PITrules : How is this different than any other city? DFW, ATL, CVG, IAD, ORD, and soon CLT match DEN's IFR arrival capacity. The 4th parallel runway at DEN was
57 Alias1024 : DEN gets a lot of sun. Under visual conditions the extra runway adds capacity.
58 PITrules : How's that? Sure, now that they have it, they might use the 4 parallel runways, but they sure aren't using all six at the same time.. Under 'visual c
59 Alias1024 : A typical operation for south flow might be landing 16L, 16R and 26. Departing 17L, 17R and 25. Typical north flow would be landing 7, 35L and 35R. D
60 PITrules : I've never, ever seen opposite direction ops at DEN; but if so I'm glad they use what they have. Regardless, IFR arrival capacity is 3x simultaneousl
61 SJC4Me : It's not even the busiest GA airport in the US. DVT is #1, VNY #2. I believe APA currently ranks 3rd.
62 FiestaFlight : Thanks for those old charts, MrSkyGuy. Very cool!
63 airfrnt : I'm not sure if you have ever been to Denver, but the Denver-Boulder-Aurora metro area is in the middle of a huge light rail boom that is going to re
64 bjorn14 : Same as the old Oslo FBU airport...they just finished grinding up the old runways. However, they have built 3 brand new office buildings, major condo
65 Post contains links COS777 : I've landed there when they are doing converging operations- landing 16L/16R,35L/35R. They depart 25 and 8. This configuration is considered optimal
66 Post contains images MrSkyGuy : No problem! It was neat to read them again myself.. it's been a few years since I'd put that together, and I'd forgotten how much attention to detail
67 Post contains images PITrules : Thanks for the info and links. Looks like I need to get out to DEN more often
68 Post contains links rampart : I do recall a tornado touchdown on the airport property, a small one (F0 of F1) not long after the airport opened. I believe it was in a far corner,
69 Post contains links PITrules : Here's some aerial photo's of Stapleton: http://members.tripod.com/airfields_...rfields_CO_Denver_NE.htm#stapelton
70 AirframeAS : Agreed. It is planned, yes. It is not a matter of "if" as it will happen. It's a matter of "when". And the timetables for that is pretty farfetched.
71 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : DIA is a fantastic airport to connect thru. Probably the best connection airport in the country. Modern very nice terminals and luggage seems to be ex
72 AirframeAS : True, the only thing I don't like about the concourses is the lack of food selections that does not sound very appealing. And it is very expensive, t
73 airfrnt : Actually no. The contract for the design-build it out, the financing has been completed, and the Environmental Review is done. It's all green at this
74 airfrnt : Also, it appears RTD just bought the right of way. Still unknown is the Calatrava design for the south terminal/hotel/rail station
75 FlyHossD : The only jets that I can recall using 18/36 at Stapleton were Aspen/UAX Bae146s. I remember a time when a funnel cloud orbited above Stapleton for se
76 Post contains links JPuentes : I think so too but looking at it most people would have thought it was just another "waste" of money but yeah I am glad they are putting it in, its a
77 AirframeAS : They're behind schedule, IIRC. And they will be even more behind schedule later on. I don't have a source to that, but I have read somewhere that tha
78 mayor : IIRC, one of the other problems with Stapleton, along with the runways too close together, is that it was found out that those parallel runways were a
79 KDEN : The contract will be awarded in June, and the line is still scheduled to open in 2015. I think you're referring to the report earlier this year that
80 NorthstarBoy : Light rail doesn't operate to Boulder nor anywhere else along the US 36 corridor. I think eventually there will be a rail/high speed bus corridor buil
81 FLYjoe : When USAir first started serving Denver in the 80s, they used one of UA's gates on the south side of B concourse for their two flights. I believe the
82 NorthstarBoy : That could be, as i know BN also used UA's concourse before they went BK. I'm guessing that US moved over to PI's gate on D once UA remodeled B. Once
83 Post contains links jsnww81 : Here's a scanned copy of a Stapleton terminal map from February 1993: http://www.aviationphotographs.net/S...irport/JamieSullivan/jamie-009.jpg The ma
84 BlueF9A320 : Does anyone have any interior photos of Stapleton before it closed?
85 Post contains images AirframeAS : That is what I read, yes. But I still think it will be behind schedule. But better late than never, right?
86 KDEN : Absolutely! I will be riding that train many, many, many times a year.
87 surfandsnow : I think DIA is absolutely great - it is the only airport I can think of where you have a nice area with lots of shops and restaurants pre-security to
88 trigged : Year round? When I flew out of there in August of last year, the line was backed up to the end of the maze and took ~ 20 min. I have to say for as lo
89 airfrnt : No, the East Rail is on track. All projects are on track right now, but there is a funding gap. It doesn't affect the route to the airport, but it do
90 mtnwest1979 : Not even in '87 after taking over the old Frontier, then PE? I would think they would have had flights on D at that time.
91 AirframeAS : Another road block that they have to go through. If the voters turn it down, the timeline gets stalled, again. I assume you are talking about the 29t
92 Post contains links RyDawg82 : http://aviationphotographs.net/StapletonAirport/stapletonairport.html Great site with Stapleton photos. Various galleries have terminal/concourse phot
93 AirframeAS : I did not know Frontier (I) had MD80's! How many did they have?
94 Post contains links RyDawg82 : They acquired them in 1982 as part of a fleet renewal plan. http://www.fundinguniverse.com/compa...-Airlines-Inc-Company-History.html
95 764flyer : NOTHING is easy at DIA. It's in western Kansas, parking is ridiculously expensive for being on the prairie, security lines are some of the worst in th
96 n7371f : Upon it's cessation of services in late August 1986, Frontier was operating 18 MD-80 series aircraft. Here's the story... Frontier ordered three MD-8
97 rampart : I can't add much to N7371f's post, except to say that the short-lived Frontier Horizon division employed MD-80s (not sure how many) and, IIRC, no oth
98 Post contains images Transpac787 : As has been discussed through the course of this thread, that was necessary to avoid NIMBY protest from local communities and to secure nearly unlimi
99 n7371f : Frontier Horizon flew 727-100's. Frontier Holdings bought seven on them for FL Horizon used from American in late '83 or early '84. Later on when FL
100 SLCUT2777 : This has also helped the City & County of Denver recover the costs for developing DIA into the lower cost facility it is now compared to when it
101 Post contains images JPuentes : I understand I was just trying to say that I wouldnt mind doing some touch and goes from there sense the only thing I have ever done from there is ta
102 mayor : I don't believe DL was ever serious about this, but used the rumor as leverage with the SLC airport authority and state of Utah. Moving the hub to DE
103 Post contains images AirframeAS : That's very fascinating! Thanks for sharing that. Could history repeat itself with DIA?
104 SLCUT2777 : DL might not have taken it seriously, but DEN really wanted to have the Western operation. As it is, DL didn't want to go knocking heads with UA, and
105 DesertJets : I'd say no for several reasons. I think the biggest reason is that the jet age brought with it some really major changes to commercial aviation, in t
106 airfrnt : There was every intention and the city had solid interest from America, Delta and Northwest. However the emerging trend at this time was the Fortress
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