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BCN-MAD Planes In Spain Mainly On Ground  
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6358 posts, RR: 34
Posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 11229 times:

With my apoligies to "My Fair Lady' fans for the "Rain in Spain" bastardization.

Interesting article in the NYT about the success of the high speed trains in Spain and that if it wasn't for FR and their "$10 fare" offers that domestic air service would be even lower. Interestingly, the rail company is NOT competeing on price but superior service...

"Since a high-end, high-speed rail connection between Barcelona and Madrid opened in 2008, a 325-mile journey that takes about 6 hours by car can be completed in just 2 hours and 38 minutes, from city center to city center.

Two years ago, nearly 90 percent of the six million people traveling between Madrid and Barcelona went by air. But early this year the number of train travelers on the route surpassed fliers, and the trajectory is ever upward.

...


The train tickets cost as much as plane tickets — about $200 one way, at the moment — although cheaper advance fares can be found on the Internet. AVE offers assigned reclining seats, computer outlets, movies, headsets, good food and even gloved attendants.

....

The main factor allowing planes to keep flying between Barcelona and Madrid was the arrival of extremely low-cost, no-frills cattle-car flights on the route this year, Professor Valls said. Book now on Ryan Air and you can fly for under $10 in April, though the price rises steeply for last-minute purchases."


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/16/science/earth/16train.html?ref=earth


Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 730 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 10981 times:

Hi

If cities are fairly close together and there is a direct high speed rail connection, then why fly?

If you look at Paris to London as an example. BMI no longer fly the route at all and BA operate less flights with smaller aircraft (used to be 767's).

If you fly you have to....

Get out to the airport.
Check in about 1 hr in advance
Go through security
Stand in line waiting to board.
Then the flight.
Stand in line to get off the aircraft
Maybe wait to collect your bags
Get from the airport into the city

If you take the train you have to...

Check in
Go through security
Board but thats easier as there is more than one door
Train journey
Stand in line to get off the train
But your there with your bags in the centre of town.

The journey time may not be that much different between flying and the train, but which is easier and I think you will find that people will pay more for that.

Alex


User currently offlinexXMHxLHx5LXx From Germany, joined Mar 2007, 51 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 10887 times:

Yeah.. you can see the effects of High-Speed train links all over the place. There used to be lots of flights between CGN/DUS and FRA. Lots of the connections have been cut after German railway (DB) opened the high-speed-link between Cologne and Frankfurt.

Quoting richcandy (Reply 1):
If you take the train you have to...

Check in
Go through security
Board but thats easier as there is more than one door
Train journey
Stand in line to get off the train
But your there with your bags in the centre of town.


You can even cut the "Check in" and "Go through security" if travelling in Germany or Austria (there must be more places). Here you just get to the trainstation and board your train. If you don't have a ticket yet, you can buy it in the (ICE, IC/EC) train. Seat assignments can be made in advance but are not mandatory.



A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A342 A343 A300 A388 B722 B732 B733 B734 B735 B738 B742 B744 B748 B752 B763 B772 DC-3 DC10 DHC4
User currently offlineslz396 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 10862 times:

Fairly common phenomenon in Europe indeed: on short routes like MAD-BCN, LON-PAR, LON-BRU or CGN-FRA the high speed train is just as fast and much more convenient than the plane, so why still fly?

There are even proposals to highly tax air travel on such short routes whenever ground transportation alternatives are available and personally I am not against this idea. Let's use our energy resources in the best possible way: the use of high speed trains for plane journeys under 1 hour seems like a good idea to me...


User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6358 posts, RR: 34
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10146 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 3):
Fairly common phenomenon in Europe indeed: on short routes like MAD-BCN, LON-PAR, LON-BRU or CGN-FRA the high speed train is just as fast and much more convenient than the plane, so why still fly?

And, if the past is any indication, the trains will only get faster. Don't know if you are aware but China just recently started up the fastest rail service in the world - the video shows 392km/h...

China now has the fastest train in the world. It runs from the central city of Wuhan down to the south coast, at a speed of more than 380km/h.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8406910.stm



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineVinnieWinnie From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 797 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9864 times:

Liked the comparison with the Acela: Average 71 miles an hour... And this is Amtrak's most profitable route as well  

On a good day you can do NYC - WAS in about 4 hours, that's only half an hour to an hour more than trains, and your fare will usually be 5-10 times lower!


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20242 posts, RR: 59
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9564 times:

Quoting VinnieWinnie (Reply 5):
On a good day you can do NYC - WAS in about 4 hours, that's only half an hour to an hour more than trains, and your fare will usually be 5-10 times lower!

And about the same as a car or a bus that you can do as low as $15-20.


User currently offlineindolikaa From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8406 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 3):
Fairly common phenomenon in Europe indeed: on short routes like MAD-BCN, LON-PAR, LON-BRU or CGN-FRA the high speed train is just as fast and much more convenient than the plane, so why still fly?

There are even proposals to highly tax air travel on such short routes whenever ground transportation alternatives are available and personally I am not against this idea. Let's use our energy resources in the best possible way: the use of high speed trains for plane journeys under 1 hour seems like a good idea to me...


Although I often have substantial disagreements with many facets of European policy, this is one area where I think Europe has the right idea. I am a BIG proponent of high-speed rail being utilized in situations where high-speed rail could negate air travel's advantages gate-to-gate. I would go so far as to consider a 2-3 hour plane-in-the-air flight as being a situation where high-speed rail would be a better solution. No disrespect to those short-haul pilots out there, but I agree that efficient use of resources benefits us all.

This, of course, will never happen in the U.S. For one, we are married to our private automobiles in a way that would make divorce all but impossible...and let's face it, we love to fly. It's in our blood. I always enjoy watching people go up to the windows at the airport and just stare in fascination at the airplanes. And we're an impatient society; we want everything now now now!



Vote for Pedro
User currently onlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5260 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 8284 times:

Quoting richcandy (Reply 1):
Check in
Go through security

Where? I take trains a lot, highspeed as well. Just go to the station and board. I never saw security or checkin.

Quoting planemaker (Reply 4):
And, if the past is any indication, the trains will only get faster. Don't know if you are aware but China just recently started up the fastest rail service in the world - the video shows 392km/h...

On the 3rd of April 2007 a French TGV train managed a speed of 575km/h ( 357mph) between Paris and Strassbourg.


User currently offlineBY188B From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8152 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):
Where? I take trains a lot, highspeed as well. Just go to the station and board. I never saw security or checkin.

Eurostar has check in ( you have to scan your train ticket at a barrier) and also security on the London, Paris, Brussels routes



next flights : BD LHR-TXL J, FR SXF-STN Y, SN BRU-LHR Y, MA LHR-BUD Y, BA BUD-LHR J, BA LCY-SNN-JFK J, BA JFK-LHR J, BA
User currently onlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5260 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8117 times:

Quoting BY188B (Reply 9):
Eurostar has check in ( you have to scan your train ticket at a barrier) and also security on the London, Paris, Brussels routes

Is that since the London and Madrid bombings? TGV and ICE cross border don't have it. Or is it for the eurotunnel security?


User currently offlineBY188B From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 8059 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 10):
Is that since the London and Madrid bombings? TGV and ICE cross border don't have it. Or is it for the eurotunnel security?

No its been in place before the London and Madrid Bombings, possibly since its inception, though im not sure of the reason why.



next flights : BD LHR-TXL J, FR SXF-STN Y, SN BRU-LHR Y, MA LHR-BUD Y, BA BUD-LHR J, BA LCY-SNN-JFK J, BA JFK-LHR J, BA
User currently offlineYULWinterSkies From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2184 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 7983 times:

Quoting richcandy (Reply 1):
If you take the train you have to...

Check in
Go through security

Or not even go through security, for most destinations, such as TGV inside France.
Checking in basically involves sliding your ticket through a slot in an automatic machine, about 2 sec once you find out how to insert the ticket.
Yeah no need to fly on these main city pairs in Europe. A very good thing if you ask me. Airports are congested enough, hard and expensive to get to from most city centers, now security is just sick, plus luggage limits are annoying when one needs to travel with heavy stuff.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):
On the 3rd of April 2007 a French TGV train managed a speed of 575km/h ( 357mph) between Paris and Strassbourg.

Right, but commercial speed is lower, although still impressive (do not have any number in mind but must be getting close to 400 km/h). This record was part of tests out before the route was put in service.



When I doubt... go running!
User currently offlineVinnieWinnie From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 797 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7701 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
And about the same as a car or a bus that you can do as low as $15-20.

I forgot to mention that I was talking about buses...

Quoting BY188B (Reply 11):
No its been in place before the London and Madrid Bombings, possibly since its inception, though im not sure of the reason why.

Eurostar between London, Paris & Brussels have security for 2 main reasons:

1) Safety reasons: Imagine a bomb exploding in the tunnel
2) Schengen treaty: The UK is not a member of it. As such there are still border controls unlike between say Germany and France


Spain long distance trains have security because of the threat of the ETA, ie basque terrorist that have bombed all sorts of places and believe in arm struggle to achieve their aims.



The funny thing is that high speed trains are not a godsend for America: In most American cities, Public transport is appalling. As such and I recently read an article about this, what's the point of wizzing from Tampa to Orlando if to get to Tampa high speed station you have to take a taxi or a car, and at Orlando you have to do the same thing?


User currently offlineLJ From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4471 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 7188 times:

Quoting slz396 (Reply 3):
Fairly common phenomenon in Europe indeed: on short routes like MAD-BCN, LON-PAR, LON-BRU or CGN-FRA the high speed train is just as fast and much more convenient than the plane, so why still fly?

I agree. These routes only make sense for connecting pax as there still is the luggage problem when arriving by air and continue by rail. Once they have a good solution for this problem the routes will probably go completely

Quoting slz396 (Reply 3):
There are even proposals to highly tax air travel on such short routes whenever ground transportation alternatives are available and personally I am not against this idea. Let's use our energy resources in the best possible way: the use of high speed trains for plane journeys under 1 hour seems like a good idea to me...

It;s not only from an environemental point of view good to substitute air travel by high speed rail. Most airports are already congested. Thus due to high speed rail an airport or airline can divert its resources (slots and aircraft) to other traffic or routes, making it a win-win situation for both aviation and the environment. Can you imagine how the congestion at FRA or LHR would look like if they would still have the same number of short haul flights AND the new flights which substituted the shorthaul flights after the high speed rail was opened?


User currently onlineicna05e From France, joined Feb 2006, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 7016 times:

Quoting YULWinterSkies (Reply 12):
must be getting close to 400 km/h

320 km/h right now but the line is capable of 360. the trains are the limiting factor but main train manufacturers are designing new generation trains that will be able of that kind of speeds.

Quoting LJ (Reply 14):
These routes only make sense for connecting pax as there still is the luggage problem when arriving by air and continue by rail. Once they have a good solution for this problem the routes will probably go completely

the sooner the better!


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3028 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6921 times:
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KL911

Quoting kl911 (Reply 10):
Quoting BY188B (Reply 9):
Eurostar has check in ( you have to scan your train ticket at a barrier) and also security on the London, Paris, Brussels routes

Is that since the London and Madrid bombings? TGV and ICE cross border don't have it. Or is it for the eurotunnel security?

No its because the UK is not a signatory of the Schengen and retains FULL frontier checks.

In fact the current Government contrary to UK tabloid journalism has strengthened the frontier requirements.

ALL legitimate entrant will have their details recorded on ENTRY and EXIT !

This will apply to EU and GB passport holders soon as a suitable Computer data base system is online.

Its all in the name of anti terrorism allegedly but it is synonymus with the continued erosion of civil liberties under Brother Brown in the marxist state of the UK in the second decade of the 21st century.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9674 posts, RR: 31
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6782 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 8):
Where? I take trains a lot, highspeed as well. Just go to the station and board. I never saw security or checkin.

Not in Germany, not in France on the regular TGV and most other neighbouring countries there are no security check points for train travel, the Eurostar is rather the exception.


Eurostar has

Quoting xXMHxLHx5LXx (Reply 2):
Yeah.. you can see the effects of High-Speed train links all over the place. There used to be lots of flights between CGN/DUS and FRA. Lots of the connections have been cut after German railway (DB) opened the high-speed-link between Cologne and Frankfurt.

To be precise, exactly the 4 to 5 round-trips CGN-FRA have been cancelled because of the ICE connection. The number of DUS/FRA flights remain about unchanged. Having just agaon yesterday completed a 4 hour journey between Berlin and FRA on an ICE train, with a 30 minute delay because of weather, I can say that air travel is highly competetive time-wise. No frequent traveller these days checks in at the airport. It's either internet check-in at home/office or on the mobile phone in the taxi to the airport. Gettong there 30 minutes before flight departure is enough. It depends where at the destination you have to go. Paris, earlier this week, attending a trade fair at Villepint Expo, one RER station south of CDG T1, made flying the better choice over using the FRA/Paris Gare de L'Est ICE train.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineTGV From France, joined Dec 2004, 874 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6495 times:

Quoting icna05e (Reply 15):
320 km/h right now but the line is capable of 360.

Only the latest built lines.
The first built lines are not able to be run at such speeds, due do the alignement: the first line (opened in 1981/1983 between Paris and Lyon) had originally a maximum speed of 260 km/h. Very quickly this speed was raised to 270 km/h.
Some years ago improvements were made, where possible, to get a 300 km/h speed, but this is not on the whole line.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
Paris, earlier this week, attending a trade fair at Villepint Expo, one RER station south of CDG T1, made flying the better choice over using the FRA/Paris Gare de L'Est ICE train.

You are perfectly right: what is important is door to door travel time, so having a station/airport nearby modifies the picture.
For the time being the number of stations served in the Paris area is not in relation with the population (when comparing with other cities with a HS station): there are plans to build more stations, in parallel with the continuation of the construction of the high speed loop around Paris.

It is likely the next step will be the section connecting the Atlantique HSL to the South East HSL, with a station at the Orly airport, but this is at least 10 years from now.



Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
User currently offlineaircatalonia From Spain, joined Nov 2007, 568 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 6410 times:

Spanish TGV lines are crap. We had all sorts of problems during the construction, due to bad planning and political decisions. In the end most lines ended up consting much more than planned, and were completed with a huge delay.

Now RENFE seems to be trying to compensate for the money lost during the construction of the lines by rising the prices, and, as a result, Ryanair turns out to be cheaper than the long-awaited train.

I'm sorry if I seem harsh, but it's frustrating how things always work in Spain: bad jobs followed by short term fixes.

Wouldn't be surprised if one day the whole country starts to fall apart.


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3181 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6315 times:

Quoting LJ (Reply 14):
I agree. These routes only make sense for connecting pax as there still is the luggage problem when arriving by air and continue by rail. Once they have a good solution for this problem the routes will probably go completely

I never really understand why that's a problem. In the worst case, it involves one extra handling of carrying your suitcase by yourself.

For example, when traveling BRU-AMS-NRT, you have to choice between KLM's F70s and the train between Brussels and Amsterdam.

So it's either: taxi to Brussels Airport, carry luggage from the taxi to the check-in hall, fly to AMS, fly to NRT.
Or: taxi to Brussels South Station, carry luggage from the taxi to the train, carry luggage from the train to the check-in hall, fly to NRT.

Considering the excellent location of AMS Schiphol railway station, I hardly consider it an inconvenience. The location where you depart, in Brussels, makes more of a difference IMO.

Now, for many of the other sectors, the problem is that there is no railway station integrated in the airport, that is an integral part of the long-distance train network. To travel from MAD Barajas to the center of Barcelona, you first need to take the metro to Atocha and then take the train to Barcelona. Now, that makes it inconvenient. But if there would be a station inside Barajas T4 like at AMS or FRA, it would reduce air traffc even more.

Air France does offer connecting tickets from CDG to Brussels South. Theoretically, they could also run trains from CDG to London St Pancrass, but this wouldn't be overly convenient as - especially when connecting to a Non-Schengen destination, which will be the majority of transfers via CDG - you will need to first enter Schengen at CDG, hop on the train, and then again leave Schengen in London. But the service from CDG works of course well from Brussels, Lille, Lyon, etc.

I think the real "problem" is that there are still very few airports really integrated in the High-speed / long distance rail network. True, many airports have a rail link, but most of them are one branches off the main line, and only connect to one city. The only aiports I can think of that are really part of the long distance network are:

AMS: intl. connections to Antwerp, Brussels, Paris + domestic connections
CDG: intl. connections to Brussels + domestic connections
CPH: intl. connections to Sweden + domestic connections
FRA: intl. connections to the Netherlands, Basel, Brussels + domestic connections
ZRH: intl. connections to Germany + domestic connections

ARN, DUS, OSL, LYS: on domestic long-distance lines

I can't really understand why the HST Madrid-Barcelona doesn't go through MAD, or why BRU is not on the Brussels-Amsterdam line. I think that's a missed opportunity.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
. The number of DUS/FRA flights remain about unchanged.

It surprises me a bit, considering Duesseldorf Hbf - Frankfurt Fernbhf is just something like 1:15, isn't it? What's the reason why the airport is still a popular departure point? Is it because the location is quite convenient for many people, and that it's easier to reach than Dus Hbf?

Still, a frequency that remains the same means that it doesn't grow either, so the modal split will likely be changing nevertheless.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6242 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 20):

ARN, DUS, OSL, LYS: on domestic long-distance lines

And GVA. Every train from Geneva to anywhere in Switzerland (excxept a few local regional trains) originates at GVA airport, then stops at the main station in the city center (6 minutes from the airport).


User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3181 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6195 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
And GVA. Every train from Geneva to anywhere in Switzerland (excxept a few local regional trains) originates at GVA airport, then stops at the main station in the city center (6 minutes from the airport).

Oh yes of course. Are there also trains from GVA to France?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25871 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6181 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 22):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 21):
And GVA. Every train from Geneva to anywhere in Switzerland (excxept a few local regional trains) originates at GVA airport, then stops at the main station in the city center (6 minutes from the airport).

Oh yes of course. Are there also trains from GVA to France?

Yes many trains from GVA to France includding 7 or 8 daily TGVs to Paris, but they do not serve the airport


User currently offlinetrintocan From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2000, 3254 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6054 times:

A very interesting thread. A few observations.

Quoting joost (Reply 20):
Air France does offer connecting tickets from CDG to Brussels South. Theoretically, they could also run trains from CDG to London St Pancrass, but this wouldn't be overly convenient as - especially when connecting to a Non-Schengen destination, which will be the majority of transfers via CDG - you will need to first enter Schengen at CDG, hop on the train, and then again leave Schengen in London. But the service from CDG works of course well from Brussels, Lille, Lyon, etc.

Schengen is the biggest drawback to any CDG - St. Pancras service. Since the UK is outside Schengen and full border controls are in place, any train service between CDG and London would require French and British border agencies at the rail station. (When riding Eurostar from Paris to London, one actually leaves Schengen space within France.) To accommodate this Eurostar trains would need dedicated platforms. These necessities form the major reasons Eurostar's services, while frequent, serve only a small number of destinations in France and Belgium.

Additionally, the infrastructure is an issue. The TGV line to CDG does not serve central Paris so Eurostar trains at present do not run through CDG - though they pass close by. Granted, a CDG connector service could join the TGV Nord and carry on to London from there - after all the Lille and Brussels trains do! The Chunnel itself poses operational issues which Eurostar's trains address - no other current trains do and so a new fleet would be necessary if AF decided to operate its own services. For example, Eurostar trains are designed to be split in the middle and driven out of the Chunnel in the opposite direction should calamity occur to the forward end. AF could also codeshare with Eurostar but this would mean passengers having to travel to Gare du Nord station to catch the trains - the link between Nord and CDG is not high-speed and features very crowded (but frequent) regional RER trains.

For the moment AF perhaps offers connections to Londoners best with its frequent LHR services to CDG.

TrinToCan.



Hop to it, fly for life!
25 talaier : Madrid's airport will be connected to the high-speed rail network once the tunnel connecting the South (Atocha) and North (Chamartin) stations is com
26 PanHAM : it takes about 1 hr 30 from DUS to the airport station but anyhow, DUS has a large catchment area and for few people the main station is really that
27 Post contains links joost : One does not necesarily. Train services that cross borders where passport control is required, aren't something special. Think of all international E
28 joost : True of course, but on the other hand: also cities like Oberhausen, Essen and Duisburg have a direct rail link to FRA. But indeed, when not living do
29 Rafabozzolla : Interestingly enough last January I flew MAD-MXP, GOA-MUC-TXL, TXL-CDG and AMS-MAD and I rode the train from Paris to Amsterdam. Well, the only delay
30 vfw614 : You must also factor in other aspects - for example, there may be half a dozen flights a day from a place like FRA to DUS or CGN - but there are up to
31 joost : It looks like facilities to drop off bags at railway stations are implemented in many countries over and over again, but most seem to be abolished so
32 talaier : It is indeed a bit of a detour but bear in mind only a certain number of trains will end in Barajas, since Atocha and Chamartín are the main termina
33 PanHAM : . like I said, there are no flights from CGN to FRA and the number of DUS/FRA vv flights remains at 7 to 8 per day and they have put smaller aircraft
34 talaier : The high speed does get a lot of EU money since they are meant to become "trans-european" transport routes and the like. I think the Madrid-Lisbon li
35 Post contains links and images Conti764 : BRU will be connected once the Diabolo project is finished (here is a link about the project: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=477300 i
36 blueflyer : You actually need to change train when riding from Paris Nord to BRU, an additional hassle that can be quite consequential for Africa-bound passenger
37 Embajador3 : Fortunately, the country is not as bad as you might think; And the AVE is a real improvement to the older Talgo's that we get up north.
38 JJJ : A lot of that money also went back to the likes of Alstom, Siemens and Adtranz/Bombardier. The whole enlargement of the EU is pretty much that.
39 richcandy : With Avignon Eurostar does not operate into the TGV station, they used the downtown station. Passengers are directed into a room, where they have the
40 VinnieWinnie : I was lucky enough to be able to travel from Sevilla to Barcelone using Regional trains, Talgo's, French style AVE's (TGV) & German style AVE's (
41 TOLtommy : What you pay out of pocket may be lower, but the subsidy required to provide the service negates the fare. Same in Europe. The airlines must charge t
42 VinnieWinnie : Wrong: Amtrak only profitable service is the northeastern corridor. I was actually taking about buses in my post which are by all account not subsidi
43 Post contains images joost : Yes I know. From Brussels Midi to CDG is one ride. From any international destination to BRU, you need to change trains at Brussels. Also, from Bruss
44 Conti764 : But I guess enough to keep HSA from operating into BRU. I wouldn't be surprised to see Brussels Airport and/or some of it's users lease some Thalystr
45 BuyantUkhaa : That is indeed a major blunder, running it Atocha-Chamartin-Barajas-Barcelona would have been much better. But that will be Cercanias (suburban) trai
46 Post contains images joost : Indeed, that's what I meant too. It seems like at least 20-25 km detour, and what's worst, it's through the urban area, where it has many stops. That
47 BuyantUkhaa : From what I've heard it was political issues... but I can't find any link to back it up. Some politician bought lots of land south of Guadalajara, sp
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