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FA At IAD Against Joint Inaugural UA-EI Flight  
User currently offlineyazoo From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 487 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 13594 times:

What is it with flight crews and FAs lately?!

Protest Against United Airlines Flight Attendant Job Outsourcing


Purple Pride!
139 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3936 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13539 times:
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Can you blame them? If this kind of outsourcing works for UA, it is the crack in the door to outsource most (all?) international flying to the cheapest operator.


I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21528 posts, RR: 55
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13478 times:

Quoting yazoo (Thread starter):
What is it with flight crews and FAs lately?!

Yeah, the nerve of people to try and protect their jobs in a bad economy. How dare they.  

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4239 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13407 times:
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I don't get it.

I've flown NWA codeshare flights on KLM planes with (really great) KLM FA's and I've flown Delta codeshare flights on Air France planes with (just as great) Air France FA's. I've also flown United codeshare flights on Air Canada planes with (much closer to United-quality) FA's

How is this Aer Lingus collaboration functionally any different?  Confused

[Edited 2010-03-26 14:15:14]

User currently offlinebahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1772 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13386 times:

Quoting yazoo (Thread starter):
What is it with flight crews and FAs lately?!

I don't get it either.. Regular people pay money to be on those flights.. They also pay for luggage, assigned seats, meals, TVs , etc. then these FAs are flying all over the country for free.. Then they also cost companies money when they overnight with the hotel costs, and everything.. Joe six pack has to pay for all that..

There isn't any FA and pilot that I don't know that is not btiching and compalining.. There must be something wrong with them..



Earthbound misfit I
User currently offlinePHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13326 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 3):
I don't get it.

I've flown NWA codeshare flights on KLM planes with (really great) KLM FA's and I've flown Delta codeshare flight on Air France planes with (just as great) Air France FA's. I've also flown United codeshare flights on Air Canada planes with (much closer to United-quality) FA's

How is this Aer Lingus collaboration functionally any different?

It's different because those agreements mean that they have to split capacity 50%. AF flies CDG-DTW, but DL flies PHL-CDG and PIT-CDG. If one flies one flight that would typically be flown by the other airline, you can pretty much guarantee that the opposite will also be true for a different route.

Here, Aer Lingus is flying IAD-MAD for UA, but what is UA flying for Aer Lingus? They are fancily calling it a Joint Venture, but I would call this specific ventire outsourcing.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 61
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13267 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 1):
Can you blame them? If this kind of outsourcing works for UA, it is the crack in the door to outsource most (all?) international flying to the cheapest operator.

Maybe that means that United needs to lower costs so they can keep this flying in-house rather than having to outsource it to another company just to be competitive.

Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 5):
It's different because those agreements mean that they have to split capacity 50%.

Not in the slightest. There is no requirement in any ATI/JV agreement across the Atlantic that each airline must fly 50% of the capacity in the market. All that it says is that they split revenue on their flights - regardless of whose actually flying the airplane - based on a predetermined ratio.

Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 5):
If one flies one flight that would typically be flown by the other airline, you can pretty much guarantee that the opposite will also be true for a different route.

There is absolutely no such "guarantee."


User currently offlineCO767FA From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13198 times:

Quoting bahadir (Reply 4):
I don't get it either.. Regular people pay money to be on those flights.. They also pay for luggage, assigned seats, meals, TVs , etc. then these FAs are flying all over the country for free.. Then they also cost companies money when they overnight with the hotel costs, and everything.. Joe six pack has to pay for all that..

There isn't any FA and pilot that I don't know that is not btiching and compalining.. There must be something wrong with them..

Difference is that the FA & Pilot are W-O-R-K-I-N-G - it is their J-O-B. When we fly for "free" -it isn't a guarantee and many "pay" - offline on another airline costs $$$$ - and in some cases the travelling public can get a better fare booking in advance.

If the airlines created more "turns", there would be less "hotel" costs incurred by the company. You do realize that all companies pay for their employee's meal/sleeping accommodations when they are on company business.

Finally, look around my friend - it isn't just FA's or Pilot's "bitching and complaining" !


User currently offlinePHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13172 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 6):
Not in the slightest. There is no requirement in any ATI/JV agreement across the Atlantic that each airline must fly 50% of the capacity in the market. All that it says is that they split revenue on their flights - regardless of whose actually flying the airplane - based on a predetermined ratio.

I know for a 100% fact that there was in the NW/KL agreement. It may not have been spoken of publicly...but I have spoken with a now ex-NW person who was very involved in the JV and was told a lot of the shuffling around EWR-AMS, DTW-AMS, JFK-AMS and such was to keep capacity split evenly. For instance, after DTW-DUS and AMS-BDL were cut, NW entered with extra 757 frequencies on JFK-AMS and IAD-AMS even though the capacity was not needed because KL would have had too much capacity in the agreement vs NW.

Not sure about the current DL/AF/KL structure.


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4239 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 13181 times:
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Quoting bahadir (Reply 4):
then these FAs are flying all over the country for free..

I remember being on a Continental flight once and being upgraded to seat 1-D.
I was surprised when a youngster walked in and sat down beside me in seat 1-C.
His first question after seating himself was:

-- " Oh, is someone in your family a Continental employee? "

-- " No. I don't know anyone who works for this airline. "

-- " Then how is it that you have a seat in First Class??? "

-- " Well, a few of us volunteer to buy tickets so that you guys can fly your families around for free. "

I'm still not sure the kid believes that anyone *really* buys a ticket.  


User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 13039 times:

I made a very long post on another forum about this that I don't feel like recreating, but to put it shortly, this is unprecedented. It's nothing like the codeshare with foreign cariers, it's nothing like express operatins, it's taking a mainline flight that should be legitimately mainline and giving it to cheaper labor.

Btw, AFAIK, these pilots and F/As don't even work for Aer Lingus, and make pennies on the dollar. As a United FF I'm 100% with the AFA on this one. This could set a *bad* precedent.

-A



What now?
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3936 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12916 times:
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Quoting commavia (Reply 6):
Maybe that means that United needs to lower costs

Right, because a global race to the bottom has done wonders for the standard of living of middle-classes in developed countries, not to speak of quality of service. Next, Mesa orders 200 787s and pays their crews so little Oklahoma is the only place they can afford to live in (state with the lowest cost of living in the US, in case you're wondering).

Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 5):
It's different because those agreements mean that they have to split capacity 50%

No, it's different because this isn't a traditional joint venture. Pretty much every joint venture has been, in a sense, a pooling or sharing of existing capacity between carriers operating at either end of the flight. EI' share of the US - Spain market has until now been minuscule at best, and is not based in either city of course. EI' sole purpose to be in this joint venture is to allow UA to lower costs.

Quoting bahadir (Reply 4):
Then they also cost companies money when they overnight with the hotel costs, and everything.. Joe six pack has to pay for all that..

That is the weirdest argument I have read in a long time. Are you saying that employees who are on the road because of the duties they are performing for their employers should have to pay their overnight expenses out of their own pockets, or just somehow commute back and forth at their own expenses ?!? My employer has sent me to Melbourne for the week-end, which I suspect is one of the most expensive of the year when it comes to hotel rates, and yet I should be responsible for the bill to make sure it isn't reflected on the cost of services we charge our customers?



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7760 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12861 times:

I haven't really been paying attention, but that isn't really anything new.


So let me get this straight.

This is a EI operated flight that isn't being flown or crewed by the normal pool of Aer Lingus pilots or flight attendants -- at lower wages/benefits to boot. Then this flight is being operated under a codeshare/joint venture with United. And because of the highly liberal nature of the new US/EU open skies agreement Aer Lingus doesn't need to be flying from an Irish airport to make it legal or whatever. ANNNNNNDDD this flight doesn't really add anything of value to the existing Aer Lingus network, beyond the occasional funky XXX-DUB-MAD-IAD-XXX itinerary that may pop up on Orbitz. And it isn't strictly or heavily an O&D market as UA is counting on a fair amount of connecting traffic @ Dulles.

Is my understanding of this up to this point correct???


From my perspective I am having a hard time seeing how this is different from say Shuttle America operating ORD-ABQ w/ E-170s or Mesa operating IAD-SYR w/ a CRJ-200? Except it is on a scale that probably isn't too well defined in existing pilot and f/a contracts.



One more thought/question/comment. If this is really cheaper why should an airline own/operate any of their own aircraft. Couldn't it be cheaper if the airline existed as the marketing, customer service, and perhaps ops management arm and just contracted the flying out to whomever?



Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4239 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12861 times:
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Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 10):
As a United FF I'm 100% with the AFA on this one. This could set a *bad* precedent.

And as a United 1-K who was formerly a NWA million-miler and before that a TWA Aviator -- and who is *also* a "closed-shop" union member -- and who *remembers* the pre-bankruptcy pilot's contract* in which Elk Grove sold the store to the pilots -- I'm on Elk Grove's side in this one.   

[Edited 2010-03-26 15:42:16]

User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 61
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 12845 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
Right, because a global race to the bottom has done wonders for the standard of living of middle-classes in developed countries, not to speak of quality of service.

It actually has. There has been no greater anti-poverty campaign in the history of the human race than the free market.

If you can't compete, then you lose. It's just that simple. That goes for United just like it goes for every other airline, and indeed every other company.

What would you prefer? That we artificially set a floor on how low the market price for something - in this case, labor - can go? If you do that you'll end up with fewer jobs. It's that simple. This is basic supply and demand - Economics 101.

And anticipating that we might here the red herring that this is somehow about exploiting third world labor at the expense of U.S. jobs, blah blah blah, nobody can possibly claim that here. This is an Irish airline hiring workers in the United States, and thus conforming to all U.S. labor laws. No exploitation here.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
Next, Mesa orders 200 787s and pays their crews so little Oklahoma is the only place they can afford to live in (state with the lowest cost of living in the US, in case you're wondering).

Good for them. Nobody puts a gun to anyone's head and forces them to fly any airline (at least not in the U.S. or Europe). If Mesa wants to fly 200 787s anywhere, and can convince enough people to buy those seats to make money - then good for them. That's the free market at work. (I, for one, would never step foot on a 787 operated by Mesa for a variety of reasons, but that's just me.)

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 11):
EI' sole purpose to be in this joint venture is to allow UA to lower costs.

Again - sounds like United feels that it cannot effectively compete in the U.S.-Spain market on its own given its own cost structure, and thus the only way it can enter that market is through a lower cost vehicle. Seems fairly logical to me.

If there are people in America willing to do the same job as you for much less - and I have no doubt Aer Lingus will find plenty of people happy to take these jobs - then that tells you something about how the market values your labor. Sorry if you find that harsh, but it's reality.


User currently offlineBA174 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12707 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 3):
How is this Aer Lingus collaboration functionally any different?
EI is not in *A and has no current affiation to IAD or MAD really. When at the same time IAD is one of UAs hubs. EI do not have a current crew base there and both sides have chosen not to use current UA crews but new recruits instead.

[Edited 2010-03-26 15:57:52]

User currently offlineadxmatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12703 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 3):
How is this Aer Lingus collaboration functionally any different?

It is different as EI is not selling any seats. A normal codeshare 2 flights come up in the availability. i.e. UA and EI. Not the case. This deal is similar to Mesa flying ORD-ICT but the partner is EI MAD-IAD.

Scope clause issue.

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 12):
One more thought/question/comment. If this is really cheaper why should an airline own/operate any of their own aircraft. Couldn't it be cheaper if the airline existed as the marketing, customer service, and perhaps ops management arm and just contracted the flying out to whomever?

That is where this precedent may lead.

Quoting commavia (Reply 14):
This is an Irish airline hiring workers in the United States, and thus conforming to all U.S. labor laws. No exploitation here.

I do not believe that they are US workers. They aren't even the regular EI employees. It is separate from regular EI and the workers are lower paid.

The UA pilots and F/A's are trying to defend their jobs. If this suceeds then why does UA even need their own metal? Outsource to other airlines who pay their employees barely minimum wage. I know all the a.netters will say if someone else in the world will do it for less then so be it. With that mentality we will lose the middle class in America, we will all be living in poverty or will be part of the upper class. (i.e. the CEO's taking multi million dollar bonues.)

This is what you want? Of with this no one will be able to afford to fly.

Labor is a cost just like fuel and landing fees, rent etc. price your product accodingly. If that means you can not offer a $49 fare JFK-LAX then raise the fare.


User currently offlineBA174 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2009, 753 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12668 times:

Quoting adxmatt (Reply 16):
do not believe that they are US workers. They aren't even the regular EI employees. It is separate from regular EI and the workers are lower paid.

IAD based. They are still recruiting for them now so that just shows that they have had little interest.


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11439 posts, RR: 61
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12636 times:

Quoting adxmatt (Reply 16):
I do not believe that they are US workers. They aren't even the regular EI employees. It is separate from regular EI and the workers are lower paid.

Doesn't matter if they are Aer Lingus employees or work for some U.S. holding company. Either way - if they are being hired in the U.S., they are governed by U.S. labor laws. Thus, the point is the same: no third world labor, no exploitation, no intimidation.

Everyone in America is free to come and go as they please. If you these new flight attendants don't think they'll get paid enough by Aer Lingus - then they are free to leave and find something better.

Quoting adxmatt (Reply 16):
The UA pilots and F/A's are trying to defend their jobs.
Quoting adxmatt (Reply 16):
With that mentality we will lose the middle class in America, we will all be living in poverty or will be part of the upper class.

No, what we'll lose is airline employees making what they make now.

There are plenty of high-paying middle class jobs in America - just no longer in the airline industry. If people want to do lots of other things, they'll be compensated accordingly based on what the market is willing to pay. But the market today - again, ruled by nothing more than supply and demand - no longer wants to subsidize high labor costs in the airline industry when there are so many younger airlines with dramatically lower pay scales. That's just reality.

Quoting adxmatt (Reply 16):
This is what you want? Of with this no one will be able to afford to fly.

So let me get this logic: as costs come down, so do prices, and thus that will make it so fewer people can afford to fly? I'm confused.

Quoting adxmatt (Reply 16):
If that means you can not offer a $49 fare JFK-LAX then raise the fare.

And watch all of your business migrate to the other airlines that can offer that fare.

This whole argument seems a bit strange: the whole thing about "defending jobs" and such only really works if every single player in the market is onboard with that. The problem is that there are tons of people in America willing to do the exact same jobs as United employees are doing now for a fraction of the pay. The way we absolutely, unequivocally know this is because JetBlue, AirTran, Frontier, et al are hiring them left and right - and growing enormously - and paying them far less than what AA, Delta, United, etc. are paying. And no, these are not refugees from a third-world country - these are American citizens who (naively) want to work in the airline industry and are willing to get paid nothing to do it.

For your JFK-LAX analogy, if JetBlue can afford to charge a lower fare because their flight attendants - again, as an example - make on average 18% less, then how do you expect United to ever be competitive if they don't match JetBlue's fare, even given JetBlue's massive systemic labor cost advantage?


User currently offlineGALLEYSTEW From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12613 times:

[Flight attendants and pilots for this one route. It is a TEST to see if JOBS can be "farmed" out. Not sure about the pilots, but the flight attendants hired for this trip, will fly this trip only. AND they have no benefits with UAL and the ones with EI are questionable.


All Posts are my opinions only.
User currently offlinedutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12602 times:

Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 10):
Btw, AFAIK, these pilots and F/As don't even work for Aer Lingus, and make pennies on the dollar. As a United FF I'm 100% with the AFA on this one. This could set a *bad* precedent.

You are wrong on this one. They do work for Aer Lingus, based out of IAD, with a starting pay of $ 17,640 and a per diem of $2.00 per hour.

Not sure what the starting pay for a new hire at UAL is...


User currently offlinedutchflyboi From Netherlands, joined Apr 2008, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 12570 times:

Quoting GALLEYSTEW (Reply 19):
AND they have no benefits with UAL and the ones with EI are questionable.

They have online passes with EI, and after 6 months off lines passes (including UA)...
other benefits:
10% commission of gross sales on the plane
25 vacation days (including holidays)

401 K
Medical (United Healthcare) after 30 days
Dental, after 30 days

and so on...


User currently offlineAirNZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 12440 times:

Quoting adxmatt (Reply 16):
If this suceeds then why does UA even need their own metal?

Then, using your own 'logic', if UA succeeds in being able to simply outsource flying to another airline why would they need their own metal anyhow? Can you perhaps enlighten me on that a bit better please?


User currently offlinebahadir From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1772 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 12348 times:

Quoting CO767FA (Reply 7):
Quoting bahadir (Reply 4):
I don't get it either.. Regular people pay money to be on those flights.. They also pay for luggage, assigned seats, meals, TVs , etc. then these FAs are flying all over the country for free.. Then they also cost companies money when they overnight with the hotel costs, and everything.. Joe six pack has to pay for all that..

There isn't any FA and pilot that I don't know that is not btiching and compalining.. There must be something wrong with them..

Difference is that the FA & Pilot are W-O-R-K-I-N-G - it is their J-O-B. When we fly for "free" -it isn't a guarantee and many "pay" - offline on another airline costs $$$$ - and in some cases the travelling public can get a better fare booking in advance.

If the airlines created more "turns", there would be less "hotel" costs incurred by the company. You do realize that all companies pay for their employee's meal/sleeping accommodations when they are on company business.

Finally, look around my friend - it isn't just FA's or Pilot's "bitching and complaining" !

Sorry I couldn't show my sarcasm no matter how stupid my post was   I don't blame you.. Being an airline worker is as criminal as bin Laden in certain sections of internet forums these days  



Earthbound misfit I
User currently offlineadxmatt From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 950 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 12304 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 18):
Quoting adxmatt (Reply 16):
This is what you want? Of with this no one will be able to afford to fly.

So let me get this logic: as costs come down, so do prices, and thus that will make it so fewer people can afford to fly? I'm confused.

You took that out of context.

Quoting commavia (Reply 18):
The way we absolutely, unequivocally know this is because JetBlue, AirTran, Frontier, et al are hiring them left and right - and growing enormously - and paying them far less than what AA, Delta, United, etc. are paying. And no, these are not refugees from a third-world country - these are American citizens who (naively) want to work in the airline industry and are willing to get paid nothing to do it.

They have a less senior work force. The legacys have a very senior workforce. Maybe if UA and others didn't drop their pensions then the senior workers could afford to retire. Then they could hire workers on the bottom of the pay scale and save a lot of money. But they can't afford to retire.

Quoting dutchflyboi (Reply 20):
They do work for Aer Lingus, based out of IAD, with a starting pay of $ 17,640
Quoting BA174 (Reply 17):
IAD based. They are still recruiting for them now so that just shows that they have had little interest.

Who can afford to live in Washington DC on that salary. That is not a livable wage. especially when you take out the cost of taxes, medical, dental, etc.


25 commavia : As I've found myself saying multiple times lately, let's please come down off the cross. Nobody is saying that anything here - least of all merely wo
26 commavia : So I guess what you're saying then is that United needs to get younger, lower-paid workers? Right, but since their competitors both have a younger wo
27 Post contains images m11stephen : I view that as a safety issue. F/As number one priority is safety. Imagine an F/A is "having a really good flight" and is selling a lot of liquor to
28 kl911 : I don't get it either, but then again , FA's are (normally) not known for having a degree in economics.... It doesn't require a university degree to
29 Post contains links kl911 : Bad economy was a long time ago, stop blaming everything on the economy, that's such a cheap, pro-union excuse. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010.
30 TOLtommy : The real difference is that UA could not profitably operate the route with the pilot and FA costs that their contracts currently call for. So it got
31 OA412 : While the economy may have grown in the 4th quater, it still logged a 2.4 % decline in GDP for the full year, which is the largest shrinkage in GDP s
32 kl911 : Exactly, UA's costbase is to high, EI has a lower one and can make a profit on this route which in turn will be good for the staff. But if UA will tr
33 adxmatt : If UA costs are too high to run this route at a profit then don't fly the route. IF EI can then let EI fly it under EI colors and marketing.
34 bahadir : I didn't say here.. I frequent many internet boards where fliers are complaining about the $$$$ we are making.. How low can you go on wages? Here's a
35 kl911 : Why? EI is starting a route MAD-IAD and UA puts its code on it... Its perfectly legal. Open skies remember.. Ryanair proved different. Making record
36 m11stephen : The average salary for an F/A in the United States, according to bls.gov, is 35K/yr. Right where it should be. The average Paramedic makes less then
37 Mir : It's starting to turn around, yes, but we're still in pretty bad shape, and it'll be a while before we get close to where we were before. That's just
38 dutchflyboi : I'm sorry, but a comment like that is just uncalled for..... Do you really think that any safety professional would not come to another persons aid,
39 m11stephen : I could imagine that an F/A wouldn't stop serving alcohol to passengers when they should so that they could make more money... Those F/As making 17K
40 dutchflyboi : hmm yeah... I can't believe you really believe that.... lets see... on most TA flights that I have worked.... the most money I ever have collected on
41 Post contains images F9FA37 : The only thing that is wrong with us it that are wages have been cut, our pensions have been all but eliminated, passenger bags are out of control, a
42 NASBWI : It's quite unfortunate, but by the same token, no matter what we go through within the company, customers need not know about it. I had an experience
43 norcal : No it isn't, this venture doesn't have crew from either EI or UA. This is what is known as an alter-ego carrier. UA's scope clause was obliterated in
44 Post contains images commavia : So is that now the solution we're supposed to accept? If your costs are too high, don't do anything about it and just accept that you'll continue shr
45 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Okay, here's how *slavery* worked. Men came with guns and fire -- captured villages -- shackled the able-bodied men and women -- herded them on ships
46 Jamake1 : Um. Not quite sure what you mean by that comment. United IS outsourcing the IAD-MAD route to EI. It is an EI aircraft, a UA branded cabin and staffed
47 Jamake1 : You mean like what Midwest Airlines did by outsourcing their entire network to Republic?
48 commavia : The point I'm making is that United wouldn't need to outsource this flying - nor much of what has now become Express flying but used to be done by 73
49 skyliner747 : "what it is" is that airline employees, like many workers in other fields as well, are seeing alarming trends and developments. Most of us see this U
50 Jamake1 : More competitive with whom? AA? CO? DL? US? All four network carriers service MAD from their respective hubs. You don't see any of those carriers out
51 United1 : UA at least is claiming the only legacy airline with lower costs (adjusted for stage length/seat density ect) then UA is DL... Now its entirely possi
52 apodino : A couple of things I have seen with outsourcing. First being that with all the domestic flying farmed out to the regionals, the legacies are forcing t
53 commavia : I don't know why United feels they can't be competitive in this market without Aer Lingus. I'm not sure if its competitive dynamics, labor costs, the
54 TomFoolery : So how is this different from scheduled a wet lease? This is done with cargo, and even passenger flights. Although EI is no longer Oneworld, they do s
55 Cubsrule : Skimming this thread, I haven't seen another important point made yet: there's a REVENUE advantage to having EI operate the route. The 3-class 763 is
56 kgaiflyer : I recall during an "informational" picket against American Airlines, elite flyers at JFK airport began stuffing money into the hands of picketing FA
57 Mir : Reading comprehension fail. If EVERYONE tipped the crew on their flight $1. As in, on a 50-seat RJ, the crew would each make an extra $50. And for an
58 yazoo : What do you base that on? I find it very hard to believe... Maybe on a very short RJ flight, but I highly doubt that crews make as low as 100$ (which
59 UN_B732 : I may only be 1P; but I really would rather not fly with an F/A who's making $17,500 a year on a purportedly mainline route. Plus from what I've read;
60 AirNZ : Can I perhaps ask for the reasoning for that?
61 UA772IAD : A few points of issue with this statement. First, the 737 was not replaced by regional jets "flown and operated by non-UA flight crews." Regional jet
62 UN_B732 : AirNZ; absolutely. These people have no experience inside of company, compared to the UA mainline F/As who (mostly) have years of experience to fly in
63 NASBWI : When it comes to emergencies, FAs are trained to handle them - regardless of how many years of service they've given to a company. Their recurrent tr
64 UN_B732 : First off, hats off to you NAS2BWI, flyI was a top-notch carrier, IME. I'm sure there *are* people who can provide good service for peanuts pay.. And
65 m11stephen : To an extent what you're saying is very true. Most F/As never have to use their emergency training. However, senior F/As may feel "much more comforta
66 doug_Or : I may only be 1P; but I really would rather not fly with I'm sorry, but if you believe United is going through all of this trouble to get the right se
67 NASBWI : If that were exactly the case, then yes, I'd feel absolutely horrible and wouldn't go for it. However, as it pertains to this subject, I must admit t
68 doug_Or : These flights are all in accordance with the union (mostly pilots) contracts. The union stance here is that United is performing a dishonest end-run
69 UAL747DEN : Seriously..........? You couldn't be more wrong with this entire statement. That is not true at all, there is no such guarantee. I bet you got this i
70 Post contains images commavia : Forgive my misunderstanding. Apologies. And that's perfectly fine and reasonable and respectable. As consumers, we all have choices to make. If you d
71 AirNZ : Thanks for the answer as I was curious what you meant. However, could you please enlighten me (noting that you are in the 16-20 age group) how you de
72 Post contains images kgaiflyer : Thanks sport. Consider it metaphor. It's still the same metro area, yes ?[Edited 2010-03-28 08:20:56]
73 Post contains images m11stephen : I took economics, accounting, and finance classes in high school, thanks. I'm also attending college right now and minoring in business... Did you ev
74 AirNZ : Yes, and as I was pointing out, you are making your observation based entirely upon perception only. What is your definition of an 'experienced fligh
75 Post contains images m11stephen : I know that an F/A with one day of experience has the same amount of training as one who has been flying for 20 years. As I said above, I wouldn't he
76 Cubsrule : Are you arguing that a UA 763, as presently configured, could profitably operate this segment?
77 AerLingusA330 : Those are codeshares, this is much more than a codeshare. It's much more of a UA flight using EI crews and aircraft than a codeshare. This is a route
78 m11stephen : Who are these newly hired F/As actually working for? What will it say on their paycheck? As others have stated, its probably not possible for UA to op
79 Post contains images kgaiflyer : In another thread, several people were discussing the effects of the imminent bankruptcy of Star Alliance member TAP and the possibility of their ove
80 m11stephen : It looks good!
81 30west : Doug_Or you are very wise, a lot of the facts on this venture posted are incorrect but your simple post sums it all up. This route has been flown by
82 AirNZ : May I ask on what basis are EI "way off in doing this"? This is a business deal, like any other, and they are earning revenue from United. It is not
83 m11stephen : I wouldn't have the slightest hesitation. All I meant to say was if I had a choice of being in an emergency with senior mamas or newbies I would pick
84 UA772IAD : My understanding of this agreement, could just be me, is that this is a UA "flight" (with codeshare in fine print) United has certainly done a fair a
85 Cubsrule : How is IAD-MAD "lucrative?" UA didn't find it lucrative last time around. JK didn't find it lucrative. IB hasn't found it lucrative.
86 commavia : How would they know? It's not like the purser is going to get on the PA before departure and say, "welcome aboard United flight XXX to Madrid, today
87 AirNZ : Absolutely, but such 'priority' would be as equally as applicable to an FA with 20 years of experience as one with 3 months. Those types of things ar
88 Post contains images m11stephen : Yes, most definitely. I never intended to state my perception as facts.
89 blueflyer : Actually EI is selling tickets. $949 r/t IAD-MAD. The problem with such statistics is that often they lack context. F/As as a group have gone through
90 UA772IAD : My quote function isn't working... @Cubsrule: Lucrative for FAs- Madrid would probably be a popular line to hold, like FCO is... Since we're talking a
91 commavia : Information and motivation for entering the labor force of flight attendants is meaningless in this case. First off, on the point of information: wha
92 UN_B732 : AirNZ, with all due respect, I'm not allowed to draw an argument from two different perspectives? To summarize my opinions.. From a practical standpoi
93 bx737 : Just for the purposes of clarity, this flight is a joint UA/EI flight. EI are providing cockpit crew, cabin crew and pilots for this venture. The crew
94 Atlwest1 : Honestly i just wish people would stop always blaming flight attendants for everything. Heaven forbid they are not pleased about this new experimental
95 commavia : Nobody is "blaming" flight attendants for anything. It's not ridiculous for the 90% of American workers without union protection. We all have to live
96 Post contains images Atlwest1 : No disrespect taken Im not talking about the glamorous or perceived glamorous aspect im talking about the mind set of being away from family for 20 d
97 m11stephen : I understand that newbies make about 18K a year but if the average F/A in the US is making 35K a year it makes me wonder where all those highly paid
98 Tommy767 : I think this whole UA/EI thing is ridiculous. I'm confident that UA can operate a 763 on IAD-MAD and have no issue with the premium cabin. Even if the
99 commavia : Well, again, respectfully - that's what you got in to. When you sign up to be a flight attendant, you're signing up for long days on duty, days away
100 Post contains images Atlwest1 : I work for arguably a very very profitable airline that happens to be a definite low cost carrier. I provide excellent customer service love my job a
101 CyberUAL : Regardless whether we like it or not, UA/EI flight had already commenced. Do we have any pics from the inaugural flight? Would love to see their fligh
102 Post contains links and images kgaiflyer : And with some *generous* bonus miles. http://www.united.com/page/article/0,6867,53367,00.html This might make a nice junket.
103 commavia : And you should be commended for all of the above - for putting up with crap with a smile on, providing good service, for low pay, long hours, etc. Bu
104 doug_Or : Nope, I'm not arguing that. Maybe it could, but I really don't have the faintest idea. I'm arguing that the point of this move is not to find a way t
105 Post contains images Atlwest1 : I think knowing my company they could find someone Im nobody and nobody special however the cost of training a batch of 6 people hoping to retain one
106 Post contains links kgaiflyer : United 4962 / 4963 (EI 6962 / 6963) flying IAD/MAD--MAD/IAD has been running late in both directions since yesterday. http://flightaware.com/live/fli
107 commavia : That is sad. That's what I meant by not merely "coming to accept" my at-will, free-association employment, but actually preferring it. It's true, if
108 Post contains images kgaiflyer : This is a red herring, really. For instance, I'm closed-shop (mandatory union membership as a condition of employment) so if I change jobs, I may be
109 Cubsrule : But if it is only about union-busting, why pick a poor-yielding route with a history of failure like IAD-MAD? The 332 is an incredibly capable airpla
110 GALLEYSTEW : NOT FREE PASS PRIVILEDGES. Off line passes can cost $$$, and if you are thinking about commuting?? Good luck. It is NOT just Flight Attendants agains
111 doug_Or : ummmmmm... what? If this isn't about union busting and is about picking the right seat mix for the plane, wouldn't it make even less sense to go afte
112 Cubsrule : If it's just about union busting, why wouldn't they go after a route they know will work because they succeed on it?
113 GALLEYSTEW : One of these days, and I am sure it won't be long, from the way that people post on here. NO ONE will have benefits or any job security. Say what you
114 dutchflyboi : At most US airlines when you start you don't get free passes to start. At CO for the 1st 10 years you pay a service fee... As far as I know (and I ha
115 doug_Or : OK, maybe I'm dense, but I still don't get the whole of your argument. It seems your argument centers around the premiss that IAD-MAD is a terrible r
116 Cubsrule : No. My point is that even if labor costs were the same, IAD-MAD could probably be flown more profitably by an EI-configured 332 than by any aircraft
117 Post contains images Commavia : But if you change jobs, are you forced to the bottom of the seniority list (and thus vacation bidding, pay scale, etc.)? In the airline industry, tha
118 doug_Or : well then lets go around in circles This move has already created a large amount of labor strife, taken lots of planning and co-ordination, and will
119 Cubsrule : But given all of the negative consequences, if they want to be in MAD (and I presume they do, but maybe you are so cynical that you won't even grant
120 doug_Or : I thought I'd been pretty clear in stating that I make no presumption as to know UAL's commitment to Spain, or the potential profitability of the MAD
121 Cubsrule : Why is it significant? It's not like UA's workgroups could not have negotiated a contract that unambiguously would not permit this sort of thing - ju
122 doug_Or : The pilot's thought their contract did prohibit this, thats why they're pissed. Why is it significant? Really?
123 kgaiflyer : Yet . . . those of us *not* in the airline industry do it all the time. But you guys do what you have to do.
124 Cubsrule : Yes, really. Ownership has a duty to shareholders. They are supposed to maximize profits. Obviously, this is a profit maximizing activity. What's so
125 Post contains images apodino : Last time I checked, ownership was the shareholders.
126 Post contains images Cubsrule : Should have been "management." That's what I get for typing before coffee.
127 adxmatt : I don't know the language of each groups "scope" clause. However you can have language that you think will cover you and the company thinks up someth
128 Cubsrule : You can. But here, a first year law student could have come up with unambiguous language that prohibited this sort of arrangement. For instance "Any
129 shamrock604 : Not true. The Pilots are ALL Aer Lingus crew, seconded from the DUB crew base. Also untrue is the idea that EI are not selling the service. They are.
130 doug_Or : First off, when did I say it is bad? As an airline employee it is clearly bad for me, but I don't expect others to pity my situation or care about my
131 Cubsrule : You didn't say that it was bad, but you did say that it was significant. Yes and no. This isn't some obscure contract term. This is scope, which is i
132 doug_Or : So why on earth would you ask me what is so bad about it? I can't really comment much about this, since I have no specific knowledge about the United
133 Cubsrule : All right, what's so significant about it? It seems to me like management doing their duty.
134 doug_Or : The precedent it sets. The idea of an airline brand that is just a shell- a marketing department and a logo. All flying sent out to the lowest bidder
135 shamrock604 : This point needs to be stressed again. All flight deck crews operating the EI/UA joint venture are existing Aer Lingus crew, seconded to IAD, and all
136 doug_Or : That is relevant to the EI crews, but not to UA, who is the real driver of this deal. Yes, the crews flying these planes happen to be union workers,
137 shamrock604 : Of course, but the intention of my post was to correct the general misconception that the Flight deck crews are non-unionised staff. Im sorry if it s
138 Post contains images doug_Or : Good points. And it is good to know that at least someone out there has solid scope language
139 Cubsrule : But UA is doing no such thing. Again, had the pilots not screwed up when negotiating their contract, we would not be having this discussion. And even
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