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Are Any 767-200s Getting Winglets?  
User currently offlinec5load From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 917 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 7483 times:

I know you can still order the 767-200 from Boeing, but I don't think anybody is. There are still a good number of airlines that still operate the 762 (AA and CO), and I was curious as to if they are going to fit winglets on them.


"But this airplane has 4 engines, it's an entirely different kind of flying! Altogether"
24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7358 times:

I don't think that the blended winglets were certified for the -200, and I don't think that there enough out there to justify it. Maybe on the tanker though...   


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5518 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7233 times:

Most of the 762ER fleet is old and not worth extensive capital investment.

The expense of certifying winglets is not justified by CO's ten newer frames and a few other individual outliers scattered around the world.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10745 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 7223 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 2):
Most of the 762ER fleet is old and not worth extensive capital investment.

The 762 is as obsolete as a 742 or A310, about half of the short 767s are already scrapped, spares sources or otherwise stored. And in 5 years or so half of the remaing will be gone too. So I dont think so.


User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 7021 times:

I am sure the freighter companies flying the 762 would like the benefits of the winglets

User currently offlinewarreng24 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 708 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 6965 times:

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 4):
I am sure the freighter companies flying the 762 would like the benefits of the winglets

Doubtful. Freighters normally fly only a handful of hours a day. That stretches out the ROI period significantly vs. a scheduled passenger operation which may have the bird in the air 12 or more hours daily.


User currently offlineElpinDAB From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 480 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6725 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
I don't think that the blended winglets were certified for the -200, and I don't think that there enough out there to justify it. Maybe on the tanker though

To certify the blended winglets for the 762 would require a current operator to "donate" an airframe for the the testing and certification process, which I suppose none have been willing to do. But, I wonder, if the KC 767 were selected by the USAF, and we all know that's a big "if", would the winglets proposed for that airframe would ease the certification process for existing 762's or eliminate the need for the airlines to donate an airframe for testing?

When are AA and CO planning to retire their 762 fleet? It seems like winglets might give the airlines an excuse to keep these fleets in service a while longer. Are AA and CO's 762's owned or leased?


User currently offlineAviationAddict From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 622 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6644 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
and I don't think that there enough out there to justify

A lot of people made the same speculation in regards to the 753 a few years back but, now winglets are popping up on that model left and right...

But, that being said, the marjority of the 762s still in service are much older than the 753s so it's probably is unlikely to happen.


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5518 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6629 times:

Quoting AviationAddict (Reply 7):
But, that being said, the marjority of the 762s still in service are much older than the 753s so it's probably is unlikely to happen.

On top of that, the 753 is still much more economically competitive than the 762, so is likely to stay in service longer notwithstanding the age of the frames.


User currently offlineOP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1774 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6515 times:

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 6):
To certify the blended winglets for the 762 would require a current operator to "donate" an airframe for the the testing and certification process, which I suppose none have been willing to do.

AA already took a leased 762 for winglet testing, back in 2008:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...e-otherwise-wonderful-winglet.html

Close behind Southwest is American Airlines, which now has winglets on all 77 of its 737-800s. The airline has retrofitted 83 of its 124 757-200s so far, and is testing a leased 767-200 with winglets at APB, says the carrier.

I believe that's the same plane they also used for testing an anti-missile system, similar to the one LY uses on some planes. The Pentagon partially funded those tests, but it seems like that program did not go very far either.


User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5843 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6328 times:

Quoting warreng24 (Reply 5):
Doubtful. Freighters normally fly only a handful of hours a day. That stretches out the ROI period significantly vs. a scheduled passenger operation which may have the bird in the air 12 or more hours daily.

It's not as simple as that.
As the winglets provide for greater range or payload, ABX or DHL could carry more freight over the same distance with the winglets than without them.
They don't increase MTOW, they simply reduce the amount of fuel needed for a sched leg, and as such, you can then substitute cargo in its place.


User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6304 times:

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 6):
But, I wonder, if the KC 767 were selected by the USAF, and we all know that's a big "if", would the winglets proposed for that airframe would ease the certification process for existing 762's or eliminate the need for the airlines to donate an airframe for testing?

I'm just guessing here but I don't believe it's much of a big if any more with Northrup Grumman pulling the KC-330 out of contention. At work one day, I work on an AF base, I was reading one of the weekly publications and it had an article about the KC-767 and it showed a picture of one that had the raked wingtips like the 764 and 77L, the article also stated that along with having raked wingtips it would have a flight deck more inline with what is on the 777 and not the 767.

Quoting ElpinDAB (Reply 6):
When are AA and CO planning to retire their 762 fleet?

Who know's with AA but CO, their 762's are relatively young, I believe 10-12 years old at the oldest so I don't see them dumping them anytime soon.


FX1816


User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6288 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 10):
Quoting warreng24 (Reply 5):
Doubtful. Freighters normally fly only a handful of hours a day. That stretches out the ROI period significantly vs. a scheduled passenger operation which may have the bird in the air 12 or more hours daily.

It's not as simple as that.
As the winglets provide for greater range or payload, ABX or DHL could carry more freight over the same distance with the winglets than without them.
They don't increase MTOW, they simply reduce the amount of fuel needed for a sched leg, and as such, you can then substitute cargo in its place.

Very true, and look DHL Air UK has winglets on their new 763's so it's not that freighters don't want them. Now with ABX the only way I could see them getting winglets is if they find it justifiable to put them on the aircraft that they use as ACMI charters. They probably wouldn't find them useful for their DHL service.

FX1816


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25448 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 6257 times:

Quoting FX1816 (Reply 11):
but CO, their 762's are relatively young, I believe 10-12 years old at the oldest

CO's 762s are between 8.5 and 9.5 years old, delivered between November 2000 and October 2001.


User currently offlineboeing767mech From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1027 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6170 times:

Quoting OP3000 (Reply 9):
AA already took a leased 762 for winglet testing, back in 2008:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...e-otherwise-wonderful-winglet.html

Close behind Southwest is American Airlines, which now has winglets on all 77 of its 737-800s. The airline has retrofitted 83 of its 124 757-200s so far, and is testing a leased 767-200 with winglets at APB, says the carrier.

I believe that's the same plane they also used for testing an anti-missile system, similar to the one LY uses on some planes. The Pentagon partially funded those tests, but it seems like that program did not go very far either.

That is a typing error, we never leased a -200 to APB. We leased a -300 N389AA to APB for testing

David



Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7587 posts, RR: 43
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6142 times:

I read not too long ago on AM's website that they were studying whether to add winglets to their 767s. AM flies both -200ERs and -300ERs, all of them Pratt-powered if I am not mistaken.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineOP3000 From United States of America, joined Jun 2009, 1774 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6129 times:

Quoting boeing767mech (Reply 14):
That is a typing error, we never leased a -200 to APB. We leased a -300 N389AA to APB for testing

Thanks for info.


User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 6017 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 11):
but CO, their 762's are relatively young, I believe 10-12 years old at the oldest

CO's 762s are between 8.5 and 9.5 years old, delivered between November 2000 and October 2001.

Wow, I didn't know that they were that young, I figured between about 1997-1999 but that's very cool. I hope CO keeps their 762's for a while, I think they are pretty cool looking aircraft.

FX1816


User currently offlineKLXA380 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 52 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4424 times:

Something a bit off topic but would winglets on a 777 work?


"The passion screams , the heart it bleeds " - Judas Priest - Desert Plains
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3703 times:

Quoting KLXA380 (Reply 18):
Something a bit off topic but would winglets on a 777 work?

Yes, but the 77W and 77L already have raked wingtips which do the same thing only better.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAAdvantageous From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2686 times:

Is AA putting winglets on all 108 of their 737's, or just the 77 that they own?

User currently offlineboeing767mech From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1027 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

Quoting AAdvantageous (Reply 20):
Is AA putting winglets on all 108 of their 737's

Every 737 has winglets, and everyone getting delivered is going to have winglets installed when it hits our ramp.

David



Never under-estimate the predictably of stupidty
User currently offlineTristarCrazy From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 321 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2400 times:

Quoting FX1816 (Reply 11):
I'm just guessing here but I don't believe it's much of a big if any more with Northrup Grumman pulling the KC-330 out of contention. At work one day, I work on an AF base, I was reading one of the weekly publications and it had an article about the KC-767 and it showed a picture of one that had the raked wingtips like the 764 and 77L, the article also stated that along with having raked wingtips it would have a flight deck more inline with what is on the 777 and not the 767.

Boeing's latest "Next Gen" tanker proposal has blended winglets on a 762. Maybe this will help get them on other 762's if the deal goes through. Check it out at http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=13&item=1055



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User currently offlineFX1816 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 1400 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2380 times:

Quoting TristarCrazy (Reply 22):
Quoting FX1816 (Reply 11):
I'm just guessing here but I don't believe it's much of a big if any more with Northrup Grumman pulling the KC-330 out of contention. At work one day, I work on an AF base, I was reading one of the weekly publications and it had an article about the KC-767 and it showed a picture of one that had the raked wingtips like the 764 and 77L, the article also stated that along with having raked wingtips it would have a flight deck more inline with what is on the 777 and not the 767.


Boeing's latest "Next Gen" tanker proposal has blended winglets on a 762. Maybe this will help get them on other 762's if the deal goes through. Check it out at http://boeing.mediaroom.com/index.ph...=1055

That would be nice. Yeah the publication I read showed the picture and stated in the article that it would have raked wingtips but the blended winglets would just look really good on a 762.

FX1816


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2259 times:

Quoting TristarCrazy (Reply 22):
Boeing's latest "Next Gen" tanker proposal has blended winglets on a 762.

Why would the tanker have blended winglets? It isn't like the Air Force has to worry about fitting them into gates. Maybe it is just a marketing thing since people know more about blended winglets than raked wingtips.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
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