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United Timetable Effective 1-15-1969  
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 6
Posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3981 times:

I was looking through my United System Timetable Effective January 15, 1969, and found two anomolies.

1. Page 2 that has a listing of Aircraft does not list the DC-6, that operated UA 816 and 837, the flights SFO-SLC via RNO, ELY and EKO. The Eastbound flight also stopped at OAK.

2. Page 2 also does not list the Viscount. And there is one Viscount flight listed in the timetable. UA 975 operating Mo Tu We Only Departing Cleveland at 450p and arriving ORD at 530p with dinner served. There is no eastbound departure returning the aircraft to Cleveland, or any other flight showing how the aircraft got to CLE.

3. The DC-6 Flights are coach flights and designated T Class. While page 2 does lists T Class as Prop Coach, the Viscount flight is listed as A class, and page two does not list A class at all. The other weird thing is that UA 975 does not have a discontinued date. I am just guessing, but I will bet the flight only operated on Wednesday, January 15, 1969 and the two days before. Does anyone have the system timetable that was effective ending January 14, 1969.

4. Other interesting tidbits. ATL had 31 daily departures; and the Men Only Executive Caravelle was still operating between EWR and ORD at 5pm..

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

Quoting milesrich (Thread starter):
the Men Only Executive Caravelle was still operating between EWR and ORD at 5pm..

That service ended in January 1970 according to the UA history timeline in their website. It started in April 1953, probably using DC-6s.


User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 864 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3794 times:
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Quoting milesrich (Thread starter):
1. Page 2 that has a listing of Aircraft does not list the DC-6, that operated UA 816 and 837, the flights SFO-SLC via RNO, ELY and EKO. The Eastbound flight also stopped at OAK

I know this flight was operated by a Frontier CV580 after the 737s came into the fleet...but can't find anything with the exact dates.



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1087 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3694 times:

Here ya go - great article on the last United DC-6 flight and the Frontier 580 wet lease.

http://www.americasflyways.com/apr09story.html


User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 864 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3640 times:
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Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 3):
Here ya go - great article on the last United DC-6 flight and the Frontier 580 wet lease.

Great story....thanks for the post!



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3622 times:

There was an article in an Airliners type mag in the 70's about the convair leased from Frontier one.
I didnt forget the title to the article....."Uniteds onlyest and lonlyest convair."
I think I still have the mag someplace. I'm a packrat when when it comes to airline news.
safe   



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 864 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3609 times:
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I think I remember it in the short lived "Airliners International" (was that the name?)


When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 7, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3596 times:

MILESRICH....OAG QR edition Jan 15 1969 list the Ely-Elko trip with a DC6....Might of been the convair....
There is NO Viscount listed between CLE and ORD and I cannot find any UA Viscounts here.
The qr's have flight itineraries after the flight listings so it easy to see what when where.
There is no UA 975 in the itinerary section or listed between CLE and ORD..... except a North Central DC9 flight 975 routed CLE-DTW-GRR-MKG-MKE-ORD(now there's a plane ride!) out of CLE at 4pm and into ORD at 7:10pm
safe

[Edited 2010-04-01 19:04:26]


If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlineisitsafenow From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4984 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3584 times:

TOMASSJC.............
Sorry to interupt again but I found the "UA convair" and Milesrich has the Flight numbers correct.... in the April 1,1973 OAG.
When it started, I do not know but Im sure it ended with Frontier taking the route AS Frontier Airlines later in the 70's.

g'night y'all
safe



If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3562 times:

Quoting Tomassjc (Reply 2):
Quoting milesrich (Thread starter):
1. Page 2 that has a listing of Aircraft does not list the DC-6, that operated UA 816 and 837, the flights SFO-SLC via RNO, ELY and EKO. The Eastbound flight also stopped at OAK

I know this flight was operated by a Frontier CV580 after the 737s came into the fleet...but can't find anything with the exact dates.
Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 7):
MILESRICH....OAG QR edition Jan 15 1969 list the Ely-Elko trip with a DC6.....Im sure it was the convair.
There is NO Viscount listed between CLE and ORD and I cannot find any UA Viscounts here.
The qr's have flight itineraries after the flight listings so it easy to see what when where.
There is no UA 975 in the itinerary section or listed between CLE and ORD..... except a North Central DC9 flight 975 routed CLE-DTW-GRR-MKG-MKE-ORD(now there's a plane ride!) out of CLE at 4pm and into ORD at 7:10pm
safe

Don't be sure, because you will be WRONG. The Convairs left the fleet in early 1968. The flight was operated with Convairs until the last ones were sold. DC-6's then soldiered on, on the West Coast, i.e., BFL-VIS-FAT-MCE-MOD-SCK-SBA-MRY-SLE-EUG-MFD until the schedule change around Thanksgiving of 1968, when they were replaced by 737's, but Elko and Ely couldn't handle the jets because of their high altitude and relatively short runways. So 3 DC-6B's were kept to operate the two flights. I was in SLC in June of 1969, and two of them were there on the ground. It was the last time I saw a UA DC-6 of any type, except a few that were abandoned at Tracy Calfiornia by Mars Aviation. I saw them only from the air flying from SCK or MOD to SFO in 1973, and had no idea where they came from until years later. If you search, I have posted or someone else has the three aircraft that were kept. I think they were N37581, N37577 and N37575. I have a book with it, and there have been plenty of articles written. The DC-6B's flew their last trips on February 28, 1970, and 23 plus years of DC-6 service came to an end. UA was the last major airline to fly a four engine recip aircraft. The next day, March 1, 1970, forty years and one month ago today, Frontier started flying the route with wet leased Convair 580's. The entire crew was Frontier. It was a precursor to the code sharing of today.

In regard to the lone Viscount, its probably a printing error. I have a November 15, 1968 OAG that shows the big schedule change and the last Sixes being discontinued except for the trips to ELY and EKO, and it shows quite a few Viscount flights continuing. I would be interested to know when the last ones were retired. The last flights were mostly on old Capital routes. As many of you know, I am from MLI and our Sixes were gone by the end of that long hot summer of 1968.


User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1087 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 8):
When it started, I do not know but Im sure it ended with Frontier taking the route AS Frontier Airlines later in the 70's.

I don't think that's correct, as a United schedule from 1977 shows the ELY and EKO routes still and a Frontier schedule from the same year doesn't show them. The 580s were retired from FAL only a few years later.


User currently offlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6813 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3444 times:

Quoting milesrich (Thread starter):
Does anyone have the system timetable that was effective ending January 14, 1969.

In the 1/69 Timetable OAG, most of the pages don't show a date, but the Hawaii schedules and the QR pages say 15 January-- so no surprise that it shows flight 975 as you said, and no other Viscounts.

Timetables in the 12/68 OAG show a date of 27 Oct-- so it does have a few Viscounts and DC-6/6Bs. Not 975, tho.


User currently offlineTomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 864 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3344 times:
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Quoting milesrich (Reply 9):


Don't be sure, because you will be WRONG. The Convairs left the fleet in early 1968

I think he is referring to the Frontier Convair...



When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3321 times:

Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 10):
Quoting isitsafenow (Reply 8):
When it started, I do not know but Im sure it ended with Frontier taking the route AS Frontier Airlines later in the 70's.

I don't think that's correct, as a United schedule from 1977 shows the ELY and EKO routes still and a Frontier schedule from the same year doesn't show them. The 580s were retired from FAL only a few years later.

By the late 70's, ELY and EKO had widened and lengthened their runways. The wet lease ended, and UA begain operating the route with a 737-222. Then came deregulation and UA pulled out, just like they did at MOD, SCK, BFL, VIS, MCE, and SLE, being replaced by commuter carriers. While UA did not pull their mainline equipement out of many of their smaller markets in the midwest until the early 90's, they did discontinue mainline service from ORD and/or CLE to MLI, SBN, FWA, TOL, FNT, MKG, and LAN not long after the strike in 1980, while keeping mainline service to DEN. At the time, they also discontinued or reduced to mainline service to one or two RT's daily from ORD to CID, MBS, and GRR, but then restored mainline to these points. Today, GRR has one mainline RT per day, while the other cities have none.


User currently offlineglobalflyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 926 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3213 times:

What were the ATL destinations and aircraft? Were they original Capital Airlines flights?


Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3147 times:

Quoting globalflyer (Reply 14):
What were the ATL destinations and aircraft? Were they original Capital Airlines flights?


UA 836 ATL-RDU-EWR Dp 635a 737 Breakfast
UA 584 ATL-CLT-EWR Dp 700a 737 Breakfast in first only ATL-CLT; Breakfast both classes CLT-EWR
UA 662 ATL-AVL-RDU-BAL-EWR Dp 710a 737 Breakfast
UA 654 ATL-GSO-EWR Dp 700 737 Breakfast F only ATL-GSO, both classes GSO-EWR
UA 402 MSY-ATL-CLE Dp ATL 937 727 until 2-15-69, then 737 Breakfast MSY-ATL, then Breakfast F only ATL-CLE
UA 360 MOB-BHM-ATL-LGA Dp ATL 1150a 727 Breakfast MOB-BHM, Lunch ATL-LGA
UA 740 ATL-ORF-PHF-DCA-DTW Dp 1200N 727 Lunch ATL-ORF, and dinner? DCA-DTW
UA 384 MIA-JAX-ATL-PIT-BUF-ROC Dp ATL 1155 72S Breakfast MIA-JAX, Lunch ATL-PIT
UA 476 MIA-PBI-TPA-ATL-CLE Dp ATL 1205p 727 Lunch ATL-CLE
UA 796 ATL-TRI-CRW-EWR 727 Dp 125p no meals
UA 626 ATL-AVL-IAD-EWR 737 Dp 230p no meals
UA 806 ATL-CLT-EWR 737 Dep 255 Meals in both class ATL-CLT, Dinner F only CLT-EWR
UA 368 MOB-BHM-ATL-JFK Dep ATL 400p Lunch MOB-BHM, Dinner ATL-JFK
UA 432 ATL-CLE Dep 255p 727 until 2-15-69, then 737, Full Meal ATL-CLE
UA 824 ATL-RDU-EWR Dp 320p 737 no meals
UA 470 MSY-BHM-ATL-PIT-EWR Dp ATL 600p 72S Dinner ATL-PIT, Dinner F only PIT-EWR
UA 424 ATL-LGA 727 Dp 550p Dinner
UA 478 PBI-TPA-ATL-BUF 727 Dp 555p Dinner F only TPA-ATL, Dinner ATL-BUF
UA 396 MIA-JAX-ATL-CLE 727 Dp ATL 605 Dinner ATL-CLE
UA 674 ATL-ORF-PHF-BAL 727 Dp 810p no meals
UA 586 ATL-PIT-BUF-ROC 72S Dp 740p Dinner
UA 676 ATL-CRW-PIT 727 Dp 635 Dinner
UA 454 MIA-TPA-ATL-PIT-CLE 72S Dp ATL 355a
UA 473 ROC-BUF-ATL-TPA 727 Dp ATL 1045a Breakfast BUF-ATL, and F only ATL-TPA
UA 349 LGA-ATL-BHM-MOB 727 Dp ATL 1050a Breakfast LGA-ATL
UA 361 CLE-ATL-JAX-MIA 727 Dp ATL 1055a Breakfast CLE-ATL, Lunch JAX-MIA
UA 459 ROC-BUF-PIT-ATL-JAX-MIA 72S Dp ATL 900p Dinner PIT-ATL
UA 439 CLE-ATL-MSY 727 Dp ATL 730p Dinner CLE-ATL, and F only ATL-MSY
UA 475 CLE-ATL-TPA-PBI-MIA 727 Dp ATL 900p Dinner CLE-ATL
UA 351 JFK-ATL-BHM-MOB 727 Dp ATL 1010p Dinner JFK-ATL
UA 453 CLE-PIT-ATL-TPA-MIA 72S Dep ATL 135a

As you can see, these are all former Capital routes. The only new routes that I remember the CAB awarded to UA from former Capital cities was from MEM to LAX/SFO in the early or mid 1970's. Wasn't cheap jet fuel great!


User currently offlineglobalflyer From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 926 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3068 times:

Wow...very cool Milesrich...thanks for the info! Cheers!


Landing on every Continent almost on an annual basis!
User currently offlinemtnwest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2455 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3043 times:
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EKO and ELY were discontinued by UA and Golden Gate Airlines assumed the service in April 1981. Upon GG's demise, UA re-entered EKO and ELY until permanently leaving in April (?) 1982 when SkyWest was the airline to replace UA's service. And why OO flies to EKO today.

In UA's second time around, both towns' flights ( one SLC-ELY-EKO-RNO-SFO, one SFO-RNO-EKO-ELY-SLC-DEN) were at their respective fields within an hour of each other. SO the 'busy' time at each place  

On a sidenote, the busiest I have seen EKO was a Saturday when there was the Casino Express (EKO was base) two QX F28-1000s flying gambling junkets into town.

The last connection between EKO and Casino Express (now xtra airways) will end this month. The corporate hq of xtra is being relocated up to BOI. End of a 22+ year association.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlinePacificClipper From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2849 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 15):
UA 396 MIA-JAX-ATL-CLE 727 Dp ATL 605 Dinner ATL-CLE
Quoting milesrich (Reply 15):
UA 454 MIA-TPA-ATL-PIT-CLE 72S Dp ATL 355a
Quoting milesrich (Reply 15):
UA 478 PBI-TPA-ATL-BUF 727 Dp 555p Dinner F only TPA-ATL, Dinner ATL-BUF

Wow! 31 departures from ATL is impressive, as are the intra-Florida routes! Anyone know when UA dismantled the ATL routes?

Sad to see so many instances where acquisitions made for seemingly good reasons end up shutting down (e.g. PSA, Air-Cal, & Reno come to mind). If UA could have held on to and expanded it's presence it might have had the southeastern US presence missing from it's route system. That seems like a long shot but it would have made flying in the South more interesting than just having EA and DL.

[Edited 2010-04-02 20:30:20]


Fly Beautiful :: 747
User currently offlinejimbobjoe From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 653 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2786 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 15):
UA 454 MIA-TPA-ATL-PIT-CLE 72S Dp ATL 355a

Departed Atlanta at 3.55am? Really?


User currently offlinemaxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 1087 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2707 times:

Yes, most airlines ran an around the clock operation (like intercity buses) in those days, especially Delta and Eastern.

User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2221 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2697 times:

Quoting PacificClipper (Reply 18):
Anyone know when UA dismantled the ATL routes?

UA dropped their ATL routes almost as soon as deregulation was enacted. UA (and TWA, who also dropped ATL after deregulation) felt they would be unable to compete against DL and EA's much larger operations at ATL.

Prior to deregulation, UA had served CLE-ATL with DC-10s, but just before deregulation was enacted, the CAB awarded ATL-CLE to DL and EA.

UA was originally assigned 12 gates in the south end of the ATL midfield terminal's C Concourse. UA never used these gates; they were reassigned to EA after UA pulled out.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2660 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 21):
UA dropped their ATL routes almost as soon as deregulation was enacted. UA (and TWA, who also dropped ATL after deregulation) felt they would be unable to compete against DL and EA's much larger operations at ATL.

Prior to deregulation, UA had served CLE-ATL with DC-10s, but just before deregulation was enacted, the CAB awarded ATL-CLE to DL and EA.

UA was originally assigned 12 gates in the south end of the ATL midfield terminal's C Concourse. UA never used these gates; they were reassigned to EA after UA pulled out.

Not only did UA pull these routes, they pulled out of many of these cities completely for a while and never returned to a few with mainline service. Deregulation came in steps, but I believe, by 1980 all domestic travel was deregulated. UA pulled out of AVL and MOB first, then followd by MSY, and CHA on 6/8/1979. Within the next year or so, they were gone from ATL altogether, because when the new mid field terminals opened in 1984, UA did not serve ATL at all. They then restarted service from their ORD, DEN, and IAD hubs, as well as from SFO in the mid to late 80's. Of course until the merger with North Central, Southern Airways, was headquartered at Hartsfield, and until the end of deregulation, the merger created Republic had a large presence there serving all of the smaller cities of the SE not served by DL and EA.

In the deregulation environment, neither UA nor RC could compete at ATL. Speaking of DC-10's CLE-ATL, Hopkins was dominated by UA at that time, and UA had flights to TOL, FNT, MBS, LAN, GRR, ABE, PVD, BDL, BOS, LGA, EWR, DCA, BAL, PIT, LAX, SFO, DEN, ORD, MDW, and ATL.


User currently offlineTan Flyr From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1906 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2643 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 22):
In the deregulation environment, neither UA nor RC could compete at ATL. Speaking of DC-10's CLE-ATL, Hopkins was dominated by UA at that time, and UA had flights to TOL, FNT, MBS, LAN, GRR, ABE, PVD, BDL, BOS, LGA, EWR, DCA, BAL, PIT, LAX, SFO, DEN, ORD, MDW, and ATL.

Add FWA until April 1980 as I recall. FWIW. I recall UA 269 from sometime in the mid-late 70's as a 727S on a ORD-FWA-CLE-ATL-JAX routing in the morning. And the plane returned to ORD on something like JAX-ATL-CLE-TOL/FNT/ GRR- ORD.
the part between CLE and ORD varied.


User currently offlinePacificClipper From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 4 months 3 weeks ago) and read 2553 times:

Quoting WA707atMSP (Reply 21):
UA was originally assigned 12 gates in the south end of the ATL midfield terminal's C Concourse. UA never used these gates; they were reassigned to EA after UA pulled out.

That's amazing to think about given the changes that ATL has seen since 80/81 up through today. Thanks for always sharing great information that fills in my history gap!

Quoting milesrich (Reply 22):
In the deregulation environment, neither UA nor RC could compete at ATL.

Totally agree. Growing up in Miami and son of an EA employee, my view of the world was a lot of EA & DL around the South and some PA (at MIA). As such I have zero recollection of UA metal flying around the Southeastern USA.   



Fly Beautiful :: 747
25 mtnwest1979 : I thought it opened in Sept 1980?
26 isitsafenow : You are probably right. My personal log tells me I flew into ATL in MAR 83 on Republic and out on EA. I remember going to the EA Ionosphere lounge be
27 WA707atMSP : At the risk of going totally OT, anyone who is interested in the history of ATL should buy "A Dream Takes Flight" by Betsy Braden and Paul Hagan. Thi
28 PacificClipper : A la PHX and IAH. Interesting!
29 Post contains links DeltaCTO : Here's a thread from last year that discusses UA's history in ATL United Airlines Original Service At Atlanta (by CAMPBELL Apr 18 2009 in Civil Aviati
30 milesrich : Sorry about that, I need to carefully read what I type before I post. I flew into the old terminal in the early spring of 1980, and when I moved to A
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