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AF To Resume CDG-SGN Nonstop Winter 2010  
User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7415 posts, RR: 57
Posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8624 times:

In an OFFICIAL Internal press communication, received yesturday April 2nd 2010 :

Air France confirms they have signed a codeshare agreement with VietNam Airlines who is about to join the SkyTeam Alliance.

AF and VN will codeshare on all 13 weekly flights operated between France and Vietnam.

For the Winter 2010, Air France will drop HAN (and will only codeshares with VN on the HAN-CDG-CDG flight) but will resume CDG-SGN-CDG nonstop,
starting with 3 x Weekly frequencies operated with a B744. The flights will be later operated with a B773ER (in a 3 Class J/W/Y config).

Currently, AF operates 4 x Weekly CDG-BKK-SGN + 3 x weekly CDG-BKK-HAN.

AF will keep a daily flight CDG-BKK-CDG.

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4509 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8519 times:

Initially planned flight numbers for this new service mentioned in the other thread changed, so here is the updated plan:

AF144 CDG SGN 2325 1655 B744 days 2, 4, 6
AF153 SGN CDG 2235 0540 B744 days 3, 5, 7

The CDG BKK service will now be a daily terminator service, also with new flight numbers:

AF242 CDG BKK 1915 1225 A343 daily
AF241 BKK CDG 2320 0605 A343 daily

Strangely enough, the BKK terminator was not moved to the 11pm departure wave at CDG and will stay in its 7pm slot with a long ground time in BKK. The 7pm departure time was necessary to accomodate the SGN and HAN tags and have the aircraft back in Paris in the morning.


User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1850 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8444 times:

Thanks FlySSC and HB-IWC for this update

Quoting FlySSC (Thread starter):
For the Winter 2010, Air France will drop HAN (and will only codeshares with VN on the HAN-CDG-CDG flight) but will resume CDG-SGN-CDG nonstop,
starting with 3 x Weekly frequencies operated with a B744

too bad to not see anymore AF metal in HAN. I know HAN was a low yield destination but...  

Do you know what will be the final combined AF/VN schedule :
- SGN : 3 weekly flights by AF. So I suppose VN will operate 4 weekly flights the other days ? as I suppose there won't be a day with both an AF and a VN flight (an AF 744 is already a lot of capacity on such a route)
- HAN : FlySSC you mentioned a total of 13 weekly flights to Vietnam, so are we talking of 6 VN flights to HAN ?

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 1):
AF242 CDG BKK 1915 1225 A343 daily
AF241 BKK CDG 2320 0605 A343 daily

Strangely enough, the BKK terminator was not moved to the 11pm departure wave at CDG and will stay in its 7pm slot with a long ground time in BKK. The 7pm departure time was necessary to accomodate the SGN and HAN tags and have the aircraft back in Paris in the morning.

You are right but, for me the AF schedule to BKK is really the best for meal times and sleeping times both from France and from Thailand.
AF can clearly fill a terminator flight to BKK, but IMO, they could study some new tags on this flight like PNH or KUL.  


User currently offlineWouterB From Netherlands, joined Oct 2008, 37 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8433 times:

When will this new non-stop service start exactly? I only read "for the winter 2010". Last september we took the CDG-BKK-SGN flight and my friend is planning to go to SGN again soon. Would be a big improvement as we sat in the plane for one and a half hour in BKK, while we had to pull up our legs for Thai cleaning staff to pass whith vacuum cleaners.

User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4509 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 8417 times:

In regard to the aircraft for the CDG SGN nonstop, the B744 will only be on the route for about 2 months. Early January 2011, the new 3-class J/W/Y B77W will be deployed. It seems that SGN will be one of the launch destinations for this new aircraft. The aircraft has been loaded in the schedules, but, at this time no seat map seems to be available.

User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1850 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8206 times:

Quoting WouterB (Reply 3):
Would be a big improvement as we sat in the plane for one and a half hour in BKK, while we had to pull up our legs for Thai cleaning staff to pass whith vacuum cleaners.

yes, sometimes you can disembark, sometimes not. It's totally dependent of the mood of the day of Thai authorities. Sometimes it even change during taxi to the gate (1st instruction is to stay on board, and 2nd is to disembark...)


User currently offlineafterburner From Indonesia, joined Jun 2005, 1213 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 8069 times:

Quoting goldorak (Reply 2):
AF can clearly fill a terminator flight to BKK, but IMO, they could study some new tags on this flight like PNH or KUL.

How about DPS or CGK?  


User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1850 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7732 times:

Quoting afterburner (Reply 6):
How about DPS or CGK?

could be nice of course, but these 2 destinations are operated by KLM. And, compared to AF, KL is better placed to operate to Indonesia due to the historical links with the Netherlands


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7415 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7473 times:

Quoting WouterB (Reply 3):
When will this new non-stop service start exactly?

Nov. 2nd

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 4):
In regard to the aircraft for the CDG SGN nonstop, the B744 will only be on the route for about 2 months. Early January 2011, the new 3-class J/W/Y B77W will be deployed. It seems that SGN will be one of the launch destinations for this new aircraft. The aircraft has been loaded in the schedules, but, at this time no seat map seems to be available.

The B744 will be replaced on the route by the brand new "3 Class" B77W starting Jan.4th 2011.

Configuration : 42J / 24W : 315Y


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7415 posts, RR: 57
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7280 times:

Quoting afterburner (Reply 6):
How about DPS or CGK?

AF never served DPS. But UTA did ! For a short time ... in the early 90s.

AF pulled out from CGK (and MNL) in favor of KLM, right after merging. KLM pulled out of MIA and CCS in favor of AF at the same time.

Quoting goldorak (Reply 2):
FlySSC you mentioned a total of 13 weekly flights to Vietnam, so are we talking of 6 VN flights to HAN ?

Until Nov. 2nd AF will propose :

4 x Weekly SGN (via BKK) + 3 x Weekly HAN (via BKK) + 3 x Weekly SGN (nonstop code share on VN flight) + 3 x Weekly HAN (nonstop codeshare on VN flight) = 13 x weekly frequencies.

Starting Nov.2nd :

AF will operate 3 x Weekly nonstop CDG-SGN-CDG (VN will codesgare on the flights).
VN will operate 3 x Weekly nonstop SGN-CDG-SGN (AF will codeshare in the flights).
VN will operate 5 x Weekly on HAN-CDG-HAN (AF will codeshare on the flights).


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4509 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 6714 times:

Quoting afterburner (Reply 6):
How about DPS or CGK?
Quoting goldorak (Reply 7):
could be nice of course, but these 2 destinations are operated by KLM. And, compared to AF, KL is better placed to operate to Indonesia due to the historical links with the Netherlands

CGK is out of the question with daily KL flights there. Also KUL seems far fetched with the daily KL flights there. DPS is different case: ever since KL restarted this destination just a couple of months ago as a tag on the to SIN flight, the route has been overwhelmingly successful and alternative options for the DPS service are actively looked at right now.

SIN DPS was started because KL could not fill the SIN flight at the time of the downturn. DPS was expected to fill the 100 or so seats that SIN was unable to fill. At this point, however, the flight almost always carries more DPS than SIN traffic, and as the SIN route by itself has started to pick up, there will soon not be enough seats to satisfy the demand to both markets. KL and AF are actively looking at alternative ways to start a daily DPS service, and all options are reportedly on the table, including an AF operated service.


User currently offlinemindscape From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 315 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6394 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 1):
AF144 CDG SGN 2325 1655 B744 days 2, 4, 6
AF153 SGN CDG 2235 0540 B744 days 3, 5, 7

The CDG BKK service will now be a daily terminator service, also with new flight numbers:

AF242 CDG BKK 1915 1225 A343 daily
AF241 BKK CDG 2320 0605 A343 daily

SGN with a B744 and BKK an A343 ? well, I would have thought the other way around ! Although it is only a thrice weekly flight with a VN codeshare, a B744 (429 seats) and then a B77W (381 seats) is a huge capacity increase versus the A343.
BKK with an A343 only during the high winter season? Seems like BKK is not a stellar performer in the AF network.


User currently offline9252fly From Canada, joined Sep 2005, 1397 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 6323 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 10):
all options are reportedly on the table

Would that include the A380 in KLM colours?


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4509 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 6112 times:

Quoting mindscape (Reply 11):
BKK with an A343 only during the high winter season? Seems like BKK is not a stellar performer in the AF network.

BKK is likelky no longer a stellar performer for any European airline. LH, BA and KL do not operate dedicated BKK flights, and are all down to single daily flights to BKK, after operating mutliple daily flights in the past. LX, SK and OS continue to operate daily terminator flights, but hand over large numbers of passengers to interline connections all over Asia and Australia. AY's double daily HEL BKK winter time flights are oftentimes not much more than charter flights carrying large numbers of package tourists.

Although BKK remains without doubt a major gateway to Asia, the competition from Middle Eastern carriers on the Europe - BKK routes has been stiffer than on any other Europe to South East Asia route. EK now operates 4 daily flights to BKK (one of them with A388), while QR and EY have two daily frequencies each. Add to that daily flights by GF, KU and WY as well as a number of other airlines offering BKK to Europe connections, and it is not so hard to imagine why expansion by European airline companies on this popular route has been stifled.


User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1850 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5794 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 10):
CGK is out of the question with daily KL flights there. Also KUL seems far fetched with the daily KL flights there. DPS is different case: ever since KL restarted this destination just a couple of months ago as a tag on the to SIN flight, the route has been overwhelmingly successful and alternative options for the DPS service are actively looked at right now.

SIN DPS was started because KL could not fill the SIN flight at the time of the downturn. DPS was expected to fill the 100 or so seats that SIN was unable to fill. At this point, however, the flight almost always carries more DPS than SIN traffic, and as the SIN route by itself has started to pick up, there will soon not be enough seats to satisfy the demand to both markets. KL and AF are actively looking at alternative ways to start a daily DPS service, and all options are reportedly on the table, including an AF operated service

Very interesting. Thank you   . I didn't think that KL could be so successful to DPS. It would be nice to have AF metal in DPS too. Many French are going to Bali so it would be an interesting option. Oviously, it would a low yield destination for AF, but as a tag on the BKK flight operated by an A/C without 1st class (A343 or the new 772 without F), why not.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7415 posts, RR: 57
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5770 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 10):
the flight almost always carries more DPS than SIN traffic, and as the SIN route by itself has started to pick up, there will soon not be enough seats to satisfy the demand to both markets. KL and AF are actively looking at alternative ways to start a daily DPS service, and all options are reportedly on the table, including an AF operated service.
Quoting 9252fly (Reply 12):
Would that include the A380 in KLM colours?

Certainly No A380 for KLM.
But AF had plans to increase the capacity offered to SIN, by operating the A380 on the CDG-SIN route or by adding 3 x Weekly A343 frequencies.
This plan was put on hold when the Economy crisis occured and the traffic went down ... now that evrything seems to restart slowly, the question will come back soon "on the table".
If it happens, I'd rather see addionnal frequencies on CDG-SIN-CDG, as AF won't have enough A380 available to operate a Daily flight to SIN and has other destinations more "urgent" to reorganize ...


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7415 posts, RR: 57
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5708 times:

Quoting goldorak (Reply 14):
Oviously, it would a low yield destination for AF, but as a tag on the BKK flight operated by an A/C without 1st class (A343 or the new 772 without F), why not.

I'd rather see :

1 x Daily CDG-BKK-CDG A343

1 x Daily CDG-SIN-CDG B77W : evening departure from CDG / late afternnon arrival at SIN connections with QF. Late evening departure from SIN / early morning arrival at CDG.

3 x Weekly CDG-SIN-DPS-SIN-CDG A343 : early afternoon departure from CDG, early morning arrival at SIN,
SIN-DPS-SIN, early afternoon departure from SIN late afternoon arrival at CDG ... or so ...


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4509 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5605 times:

My educated guess for further network developments of the AF/KL in the region over the next 2 years would be:

For AF:

* CDG BKK terminator with A343 in summer, B77W in winter
* addition on a thrice weekly A343 SIN terminator with early afternoon departure from CDG and daylight return from SIN

For KL:

* reistatement of the SIN terminator with B772
* DPS tagged to BKK daily as AMS BKK DPS with B744 or B77W
* introduction of 3 weekly KUL terminators with noon departure from AMS and daylight return from KUL
* daily TPE tagged to HKG as AMS HKG TPE with B74E


User currently offlineThai744 From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5382 times:
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For me, this is where code-shares fall down.

AF / VN code-sharing is quite ridiculous IMO.

When 2 carriers code-share, the service standards should be similar. Many people don't understand or know about code-share, and I can guarantee you that people will book a flight with an AF flight number and end up on VN metal and not be aware of it prior to boarding the aircraft. A bit harsh to say "up to them to find out", but remember the general public quite often aren't aware of aviation practices.

There is NO WAY that service standards can be compared between AF and VN.

I have flown both long-haul (AF 6 times and VN 8 times) and VN simply isn't anywhere near AF in terms of service.

I'm surprised that an alliance would even consider VN becoming a member - cruddy service, appalling website, staff who simply don't care, a lot of aircraft with cabins in very ordinary condition etc.


User currently offlinecityairline From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 705 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5153 times:

Good news indeed. Always nice to see more destinations in SE Asia going from one-stop to nonstop services!

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 9):
AF pulled out from CGK (and MNL) in favor of KLM, right after merging. KLM pulled out of MIA and CCS in favor of AF at the same time.
Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 17):
My educated guess for further network developments of the AF/KL in the region over the next 2 years would be:

When AF dropped MNL in favor of KL in 2004, they started with 5 weekly 772 and soon increased to daily flights. When the 7/W later arrived KL almost put the aircraft on the MNL route immediately three times a week. Not long after it became four, to finally result in five weekly 77W and two 772.
So when AF pulled out, there didn't seem to be enough demand for both carriers to operate MNL, but since 2004 KL has upped capacity at MNL and soon operates their largest aircraft on a daily basis!
Somewhere I read that the loadfactor at the route has exceeded 93% and that KL was considering adding a second flight on some days. Although, I don't know how reliable this information is.

But I was wondering if it wouldn't be better if AF relaunched MNL insted of KL adding a second flight?

//Alex



I don't fly to live, I live to fly...
User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1850 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5131 times:

Quoting cityairline (Reply 19):
When AF dropped MNL in favor of KL in 2004, they started with 5 weekly 772 and soon increased to daily flights. When the 7/W later arrived KL almost put the aircraft on the MNL route immediately three times a week. Not long after it became four, to finally result in five weekly 77W and two 772.
So when AF pulled out, there didn't seem to be enough demand for both carriers to operate MNL, but since 2004 KL has upped capacity at MNL and soon operates their largest aircraft on a daily basis!
Somewhere I read that the loadfactor at the route has exceeded 93% and that KL was considering adding a second flight on some days. Although, I don't know how reliable this information is.

It's very good that KL is so successful on this route. However, we have to also consider that KL is now the only European carrier from MNL as LH also axed this route a few years ago. This probably helped KL

Quoting cityairline (Reply 19):
But I was wondering if it wouldn't be better if AF relaunched MNL insted of KL adding a second flight?

it seems unlikely to me that AF reappears in MNL. A 2nd KL flight seems more likely, or an increase in capacity of the single flight by using a 744 instead of 772/77W ?


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4509 posts, RR: 72
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4950 times:

A second MNL flight will not happen. For now, capacity increase is still possible if KL deploys the B77W daily. The deployment of the B77W was made possible partly because LH pulled out of MNL, but meanwhile, yields have been under pressure because of the increasing presence of Middle Eastern carriers on the route. The B744 would not give any advantage over the B77W on the MNL route as the total seat count is virtually the same. KL is struggling to fill the 35 J seats on the T7, so the 42 seats of the B744 would not add any benefit.

As for a return of AF to MNL, I believe that the Indonesian, Philippine and Malaysian markets will remain firmly KL domain.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7415 posts, RR: 57
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4499 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 21):
As for a return of AF to MNL, I believe that the Indonesian, Philippine and Malaysian markets will remain firmly KL domain.

  

Only SIN will get improvement from AF in the region.

The only AF expansion I can see in Asia would be in China / Korea / Japan (a Second Daily CDG-KIX-CDG is planned ).


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