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Question RE: AA LGA-YYZ  
User currently offlineCOEWRNJ From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1064 posts, RR: 19
Posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3617 times:

So my question is why does this flight exist and why so many frequencies per day?

I fly up to YYZ from NYC quite frequently and have recently switched from CO at EWR to AA at LGA. About four weeks ago my flight from LGA to YYZ had 14 people on an ERJ-140. My return had six including me on an ERJ-135.

Yesterday I flew up to YYZ and the flight had nine people on it including me and the three other people that I flew up here with.

I can't imagine that this is profitable. I think AA has some eight or nine flights a day on this route. Anyone with any insight?

11 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinethegman From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 668 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3617 times:

Fare war with Air Canada perhaps?

User currently offlineCOEWRNJ From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 1064 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3573 times:

I don't know. Honestly, flying out of LGA is much more expensive than EWR on this particular route. I just started using LGA because CO or should I say Colgan has been late by more than two hours on about 99% of the flight I have been on. I have to plan on taking an earlier flight so I can get home at a decent hour when I choose CO. AA and AC tend to be the same price most of the time out of LGA or at least close.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32777 posts, RR: 72
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3541 times:

The CRJ-700 with a First Class cabin will start showing up on this route late summer. It is an important business route for American Airlines.


a.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25300 posts, RR: 22
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3456 times:

To be competitive in a market with a lot of high-yield business traffic like LGA-YYZ, AA needs similar frequency to AC which has 12 nonstops daily (Monday-Friday) with fewer flights on weekends. And AC uses much larger aircraft ranging from the E-175 and E-190 to the A319/320/321, depending on day of week and season.

I expect at least half, if not more, of high-yield business traffic on that route is Canada-origin and AA is handicapped in obtaining much of that market since frequent business travellers in Canada are mostly locked into AC's frequent flyer program. For AA it's also mostly an O&D market while for AC it's a spoke to their major hub. AC also has a competitive advantage in offering a proper business class product on all flights on that route.

At one time back in the 1970s AA even had a couple of daily DC-10s LGA-YYZ-LGA and others were mostly 727-200s. It's a big change that they now use the smallest jets in the AA Eagle fleet, the 37/44/50 seat E-135/140/145.

For over 20 years in the 1950s/60s, AA had a monopoly on LGA-YYZ-LGA as AC only served JFK until sometime in the 1970s when they moved to LGA (except to points beyond the 1500 mile LGA perimeter rule limit).


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3334 times:

Quoting COEWRNJ (Thread starter):
I think AA has some eight or nine flights a day on this route. Anyone with any insight?

Upped to 12 daily last year, weekdays. Reduced to 10 daily now. All E-135/140. Also 3 daily YYZ-JFK E135.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 3):
The CRJ-700 with a First Class cabin will start showing up on this route late summer. It is an important business route for American Airlines.

Correct. One daily upgrade to CR7. Other 9 daily will remain E135/140. Incidently, the CR7 used currently used on 4 of the 9 daily YYZ-ORD will exit YYZ this week. AA mainline is returning to YYZ-ORD with 2x daily M80 this week. So the CR7 will be gone from YYZ from April to Sept.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
To be competitive in a market with a lot of high-yield business traffic like LGA-YYZ, AA needs similar frequency to AC which has 12 nonstops daily (Monday-Friday) with fewer flights on weekends.

Correct.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
I expect at least half, if not more, of high-yield business traffic on that route is Canada-origin and AA is handicapped in obtaining much of that market since frequent business travellers in Canada are mostly locked into AC's frequent flyer program.

Correct. AA used to be dominant on YYZ-LGA until the early 90's. Aeroplan locked in business with AC on the route.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 4):
At one time back in the 1970s AA even had a couple of daily DC-10s LGA-YYZ-LGA and others were mostly 727-200s. It's a big change that they now use the smallest jets in the AA Eagle fleet, the 37/44/50 seat E-135/140/145.

Correct. In the early 80's, AA operated 8x daily YYZ-LGA (6x 722, 2x D10). By late 80's, it was 7x daily 722. By late 90's, 1x daily M80 and 6x daily F100 and now the E135/140. AA also operated daily YYZ-EWR until the early 80's. Now the market is likely larger but fragmented with Porter (YTZ-EWR), CO/AC (YYZ-EWR), DL/AA (YYZ-JFK), AA/AC (YYZ-LGA). Westjet is angling for a return to YYZ-LGA with 5x daily 73G code-sharing with DL. COEx and Jazz are reported interested in YTZ-EWR. There is also 5th freedom rights on daily LAN 763 YYZ-JFK. The Tor-NYC market is incredibly fragmented with YYZ-LGA only one piece of the puzzle.

I fly to NYC on business now and then and all flights on all airlines are generally 50% full, unless earlier flights have been cx. It's a heavy business route so low loads may well still be profitable.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinejfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3469 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3037 times:

"The CRJ-700 with a First Class cabin will start showing up on this route late summer. It is an important business route for American Airlines."

Is it? That's why they have 10-12 daily Jungle Jets on the route? So business men and women can squeeze into a tiny plane and gate check their carry-ons and walk up and down a set of stairs when they don't get assigned a gate?

What a way to treat people on that Important Business Route. Same day service courtesy of Eagle!  

The legacies are a dying business model for a reason . . .


User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2958 times:

AC has felt a bit of Porters entry into EWR on their LGA flights. It could be AA is feeling it more. If you are heading right to downtown Toronto it might be worth heading to EWR to fly and avoid YYZ in Toronto. It has been a long time since I have flown AA to NYC (last time was on a Fokker lol). However the morning AC flights are often packed, especially the YYZ orginating ones.

User currently offlinehoons90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 3015 posts, RR: 52
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2660 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

As recently as the summer of '09, AA mainline was flying LGA-

The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
User currently offlinehoons90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 3015 posts, RR: 52
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2644 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Sorry... something went wrong with my post above. Here it is again:

As recently as the summer of '09, AA mainline was still flying LGA-YYZ with M80s, twice daily if I recall correctly. During the summer of '08, 738s were used on it during weekdays.



The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2568 times:

Quoting hoons90 (Reply 9):
As recently as the summer of '09, AA mainline was still flying LGA-YYZ with M80s, twice daily if I recall correctly. During the summer of '08, 738s were used on it during weekdays.

Correct 2x daily M80 and the remainder E135/140. The mainline were early AM and late afternoon in each direction. Then the AM LGA-YYZ M80 was switched to a 738 which routed LGA-YYZ-MIA. Then YYZ-LGA v.v. went all Eagle.

AA YYZ-ORD went all Eagle but this week the 4x daily CR7 will be replaced by 2x daily M80. The 5x daily E145 remain, so the M80 returrns to YYZ.

I doubt we will see the AA M80 on YYZ-LGA again given the increasing fragmentation of the market and the likely new services COEx EWR-YTZ, Jazz EWR-YTZ and WS YYZ-LGA. When YTZ gets US pre-clearance later this year, Porter has talked about adding YTZ-LGA.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineSlcDeltaRUmd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3457 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2298 times:

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 6):
"The CRJ-700 with a First Class cabin will start showing up on this route late summer. It is an important business route for American Airlines."

Is it? That's why they have 10-12 daily Jungle Jets on the route? So business men and women can squeeze into a tiny plane and gate check their carry-ons and walk up and down a set of stairs when they don't get assigned a gate?

What a way to treat people on that Important Business Route. Same day service courtesy of Eagle!

this is such an incredibly short flight that i doubt anyone cares about being in coach.....business people would rather have frequency and not wait in the airport than to be concerned over plane types. The vast majority of business travelers never care or look at what plane they are flying in they look at plane times. Most business travelers just want to get home regardless of what plane type they are flying on. The single upgrade for a few F seats is probably nice for connecting passengers who have a longer day of flying ahead


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