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MESA... Backstabbing Airline!  
User currently offlineATRpilot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2325 times:

Tell me what you all think of this garbage...

Mesa has announced that they will begin flying under their own colors from Cincinnati to take advantage of the Comair strike. In my opoinion this is an example of what kind of company Mesa is... the bottom feeder of the industry, existing on the scraps left by better airlines who have come before. They pay their people garbage and deliver an inferior product that no company would ever be proud of.

Now Mesa has sunk to new lows... moving into Cincinnati to do the work temporarily left by Comair. They are bottom feeding once again, tearing at the flesh of a bruised and bleeding Comair, a company which is still alive nontheless. Instead of respecting the fragile process of labor negotiations Mesa has instead poured salt into the wound and made matters far worse. They are forcing their pilots to do STRUCK WORK... in essence making them violate one of the most basic tennants of labor relations.

It is important for me to say that I do not blame Mesa's pilots per say. They are ALPA and I would expect that they will do all they can to prevent this unjust situation from progressing further. Hopefully they will do all they can to support the Comair pilots in their struggle and continue to afford them jumpseat privleges whenever possible. Mesa's pilots can not be faulted for their management's lack of morals and respect for a time honored process.

I guess you can tell this really tweaks my screws! I'll get off my soapbox now!

ATRpilot



114 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3267 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1919 times:

I don't see anything immoral about Mesa flying into Cinicinnati. They saw a need and they are the first to fill it. That is the key to every successful business. Mesa saw a need for air service from the Greater Cincinnati Metro area, which is home to over 2 million people, to various markets left without direct service. It was Comair that stands to lose out and they lost out long before Mesa announced service from Cincinnati.


.......
User currently offlineTravelin man From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1897 times:

Uhh... it's called capitalism. We do live in America, you know. Why would any "competitor" not enter a market when it sees an opportunity. That is the beauty of the free market.

And apparently you don't know the meaning of the word "struck work". As I understand it, that only means that pilots of Delta Airlines cannot start flying Comair routes during their labor situation. Competitors can do anything they want!

You call them "bottom feeders". Most people would call it "Capitalism".


User currently offlineILOVEA340 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 2100 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

Don't like to go to china. No really they have every right to do this.

User currently offlineFlashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2900 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1864 times:
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ATRPilot, while I can see where you can take this personally, this isn't anything but a business move -- and a smart one at that.

Look, just because Comair is on strike, that doesn't negate the need for these flights. They obviously served a purpose before. Mesa is going to satisfy a market that can't be satisfied before.

I know that unions have a rich heritage of helping one another, and that they've enjoyed a lot of public sympathy in the past. Good or bad, that sympathy is largely gone.

I'm not belittling the large amount that Comair pilots have on the line here -- they do deserve more -- but to expect a community (or an industry) to grind to a halt over a labor dispute is irrational in this day and age. The new attitude is "I'm sorry for your troubles, but the show must go on."

Indeed, my personal patience with unions and their tactics are running very thin. If labor negotiations were the "fragile" process that you indicate, why do we have the Flight Attendants unions out there with their CHAOS strategy? How does that respect the "time honored process"?

No one is forcing the Comair pilots to be out on strike, and no one is forcing the Mesa pilots to fly these routes. Obviously, there are people who enjoy working for Mesa, despite your indication that they are awful people. Anyone -- ANYONE -- could jump ship there, but you don't hear of a mass exodus over this new expansion.

Airlines have been built very successfully on exactly this type of risktaking, and there's more of it on the way. To expect an industry to follow arbitrary, almost religious, rules on ettiquette of what business to do where is completely and totally illogical in today's world.


User currently offlineAviatsiya From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1837 times:

Since when have Mesa management and employees been answerable to Comair management and pilots? I thought that Mesa were answerable to the Mesa shareholders.

Going by your own words ATRPilot, just about every pilot in the US and UK airlines are nothing but scabs, because they had the nerve to fly domestic services in Australia when we had our pilots strike in the late 1980s.

Does it say when you fly into Cincinnati.......WELCOME TO CINCINNATI....BUT ONLY IF YOU ARE COMAIR?

The people of Cincinnati are entitled to air service, and I don't think that the citizens of that city care if they fly Comair or Mesa....they just want to fly, and they are not responsible for the Comair troubles.



Scotty
Aviatsiya/Авиация


User currently offlineATRpilot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1833 times:

I had a feeling I'd get a rise at of allot of folks with post!

True, for Mesa Airlines this is a shrewd move. They have a ready made clientel of ticked off people who would probably jump on a beat up Trimotor to get where they are going on time (an exageration). Nor do I dispute Mesa's right to provide service to this market. I am an ardent capitalist, but along with that comes a sense of fair play.

Mesa has put their own pilots in one hell of a pickle. If they take over (not supplement but take over) Comair's flying out of Cincinnati, they WILL be performing struck work... that is, performing the job of others in the same union who are out on a work action. They only thing that makes that sort of okay is that they work for another company which is forcing it on them. It is indeed much different than being an off the street scab, but no less distastful for those involved.

Flashmeister (who's posts I always enjoy) implies that if the Mesa pilots don't like it then they could simply pack up and leave. That is not quite true. As anyone associated with the industry knows, a pilot job is always a precarious thing, especially at the regional level. If you want to get started as an airline pilot, you many times have to take the first thing that comes along. Then you usually end up making around minimum wage for your first year or longer... and the less said about the work rules the better! Such is the situation at Mesa (and others like them).

The pilots of Comair are making huge sacrifices to try to break the chain of unfair work rules and pay at the regional level of the industry. They make the arguement that they perform the same class of work as any other pilot flying any other equipment. I believe they are correct. Do you think it is right to let airlines fly new hire FO's 90-100 hours a month, yet have them make less than $14,000 per year (sometimes much less)? Think about that next time you fly a regional airline. Also think about the fact that the pilots may not be getting adequate meal breaks and may be coming off a reduced rest (8 hour) overnight. That is what you have to do to be a pilot, but it doesn't make it right and it needs to be changed.

Yes, Mesa has the right to serve Cincinnati. Capitalism will prevail. But the flying public should be aware that companies like Mesa propogate a sytem of hiring which takes low time (and desperate) pilots, under pays and over uses them, then reaps the rewards without sharing them with its employees. The pilots of Comair are fighting to level the playing field and they deserve the industry's and the public's support.


User currently offlineOverlord From Portugal, joined Jul 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1797 times:

ATRpilot-that's a good little ALPA dog.
Does this mean anyone who adds service-or flies on service once done by Comair, are scabs now?


User currently offlineATRpilot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1798 times:

Just to clarify an earlier point... I am not suggesting, nor do I believe, that the pilots at Mesa are scabs. They are not crossing any picket lines and I apologize if I somehow insinuated that.

I do, however think that their management reeks.

ATRpilot


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1793 times:

Just curious, but what obligation does MESA management have to support COMAIR pilots?

User currently offlineKUGN From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 615 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1782 times:

This is one of the far most rediculous comments I've read in long time.

It is like if Comair had monopoly over the CVG, or like all airlines were in some sort of sick brotherhood managed by centralised 5 year plan.

What is next? Shutting power to California, not to offend their off-line power plants?


User currently offlineOverlord From Portugal, joined Jul 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1783 times:

You're the type who thinks management reeks at every company, and that ALPA is this great, big, beneficient entity that we all should bow to. I doubt the ALPA leaders will be beatified anytime soon.

User currently offlineFlashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2900 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1774 times:
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ATRpilot-

The bottom line is that Mesa pilots are having to make a choice... a singular choice:

Do we, as members of a union, decide that we are going to hang in there for our union brothers and sisters, or do we decide that we're going to look out for Number One and keep flying?

Overwhelmingly, Mesa pilots are going to make the latter choice. They're going to look out for Number One. The entire point of a union was that everyone was going to be taken care of -- the little workerbee wouldn't be taken advantage of, and everyone will benefit.

The end result of the unions has been that the union fatcats get rich, the pilots still have to make the choice above, and the flying public is taken along on a largely political roller coaster ride every time the union decides that it will make a move.

Solidarity is dead. The Mesa pilots, if they really wanted to stand up for the little guy, would decide that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one, and they wouldn't fly the route. No one is holding a gun to their head to fly the route -- they're not strapped to the seat. They have a brain and two legs, and have the free will to do what they damned well please.

Unions now exist largely to exert disproportionate political power over management and extort higher costs (read: higher fares, too) out of the airlines.

-Aaron


User currently offlineSccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5505 posts, RR: 28
Reply 13, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1757 times:

Consider this-

If there were no strike, and Mesa simply decided to enter the Cinci market and they succeeded to the extent that they put Comair out of business, would that not constitute achieving the same result? Why is now any different?

Both sides in every labor dispute take grave risks- the labor, the risk that they will be replaced, that the disruption caused by their strike will cause the failure of the business, or the risk that the demands they have made will cause the business to no longer be competetive; as for management, the risk that their failure to resolve the strike will kill the business, the risk that their intransigence will cause the crippling loss of desperately-needed skilled personnel, and the risk that they might accede to demands which would make the business no longer competetive with others in its industry.

The dynamics of a strike are bad enough, as referenced, but there is no reason in rational thought why other businesses should not move into the void and serve the suffering public; that is, indeed, one of the risks both sides in a strike have to weigh in their bargaining positions.

As Scotty referenced above, should Australia have been completely shut down during the pilots' strike? You'd have to be a compellingly petty and selfish pilot to urge that!



...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4499 posts, RR: 33
Reply 14, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1746 times:

IT's good to hear from you ATR Pilot...I always enjoy your posts and have missed you in our many and often intense discussions of the Comair strike.

That said, I have to agree to the jot and tittle with Aaron on this one. First of all, the Comair pilots simply aren't right this time. Management is making a fair and just offer that increases wages greatly, and provides retirement benefits. Yes, it was unjust to pay starting pilots $14k per year, and that did have to change. And it is changing.

But the fact is that the marketplace, not union bosses, now determines the pay levels of employees. Regional pilots make less than mainline narrowbody pilots because they fly smaller planes. Whether those planes are flown 45 miles to Dayton or 300 miles Dallas-Monterrey.

Unions simply cannot expect communities and people to grind their lives to a halt because their members want an 85 percent pay raise, not a 40 percent pay raise. That's just not how the world works for the 91 percent of non-union Americans...most of us would get laughed at, or fired, if we rejected such an offer. Why do union airline employees deserve an exemption from economic reality?

Please don't misunderstand me, there's no personal hostility, and you're one of the pilots I respect most at this forum because I feel like you'll actually talk and take others seriously. Oftentimes I see a sort of arroagance, as if pilots are the only people involved in aviation, and ALPA is some kind of church. Aviation, like any other human enterprise, involves many parties, all of whom have just interests. All of whom have a right to consult the data and form opinions on matters of common interest to all.

But the Comair pilots are wrong on this one....and Mesa is simply following the market demand.

ATR Pilot, what do you think of union thuggery like harassing pilots who fly strike routes, or vandalism of cars or homes, or ruining careers of pilots who don't do what the union bosses want. It's perfectly fair to strike, yes, but what right to union members have to harass and terrorize men who put their families first? That kind of social-enforcement is very out of tune in a free society, where individuals are responsible for their own destiny. It's also just plain wrong.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineCNBC2001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1741 times:

I am personally a big American Eagle fan and Comair is our biggest competitor. Even though it's not AE taking over the business, I just love to see Comair sitting over their dying.

Au Revoir COMAIR!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


User currently offlineLowfareair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (13 years 3 months 2 days ago) and read 1718 times:

"Also think about the fact that the pilots may not be getting adequate meal breaks and may be coming off a reduced rest (8 hour) overnight."

Oh my God!! Only 8 hours of rest!

Let's look at me, a 'typical' teenager.

Yesterday:

-Get up at 6am for school.
-Spend 5 minutes having some pop tarts b4 i have to run for the bus.
-Get home at 3pm
-Go to work 3:30-6:00
-Go home, be there by 6:15p
-Leave to tape a program for our school's tv station, 6:45-9:45p
-Do homework, finish at 11p.
-Get 7 hours sleep.
So I wonder who has a harder job here?? A student or a pilot?


User currently offlineFlashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2900 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (13 years 3 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1706 times:
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In the pilots defense, Lowfareair, you're not responsible for the lives of others while in class. Please don't trash the pilots here. My beef lies with the unions -- not the pilots themselves, who every day do a fantastic job.

User currently offlineCAETravlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 908 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (13 years 3 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1702 times:

I have to agree with Flashmeister. Pilots do have a job where rest and being alert is critical. I also have to agree with Comair management in that, when you are flying a smaller plane, you cannot afford to pay your pilots as much as the mainline pilots are making. The Comair pilots have listed to ALPA leadership, and now they are out of work. However, unlike their nonstriking coworkers, they have a union taking a collection, and sending them money. Meanwhile, their nonstriking coworkers are sitting at home, with no income, while they wait for the pilots to fleece their employer.

I am not saying the last contract was perfect, but it was a step up, and gave them a decent pay raise, especially for regional pilots, and I don't think the work rule changes were that significant from what I have seen. I have absolutely no respect for union leadership, and think they are trying to break management, but in the end, it is the airline employees and patrons that are going to lose.

Ok, that is my 2 cents.



A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
User currently offlineBoeing757/767 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2282 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (13 years 3 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1695 times:

Struck work, my butt.

ALPA is the real bottom-feeder in this industry.

Mesa is simply meeting market demand.



Free-thinking, left-leaning secularist
User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (13 years 3 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1693 times:

I was going to say exactly what Flashmeister said, that Lowfareair is a little out of line comparing himself in that fashion with a pilot who has lives in his/her hands. Regional pilots fly a lot more landing/takeoffs daily on average than their mainline brethren, and their rest period is crucial.

DCA-ROCguy, don't expect an answer from ATR pilot, or JETPILOT about the union thuggery that sometimes takes place against people who cross the picket line, or who take their jobs when they voluntarily walk away from it. Most die-hard union people don't have a problem with that, because for them, it's either their way or no way. Years ago-in like '83, I think, two CO pilots who had crossed the picket line there had pipe bombs planted in either their cars or homes (I can't remember which), by two fellow CO pilots who were on strike-and the union never even raised an eyebrow over it.

As for Mesa pilots being "guilty" of "struck work", well, that's an interesting interpretation of "struck work". Apparently ATR pilot thinks Cincinnati should just sit on it's hands while Comair is idle. Well, Cincinnati can't economically afford to do so, and they're not going to wait for the Comair pilots to come to their senses.


User currently offlineLowfareair From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (13 years 3 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1660 times:

I didn't mean that pilots suck, I am talking about how they(The unions, and some of the pro-union anti-management people) say that they don't get enough rest, need more time for meals, etc. Pilots don't work for five days/week every week, but they complain as if they work 60 hours per week in a sweat shop in China at $.30/hour. Heck, I would like to be a pilot when I grow up, but some of them need to learn that they aren't 'all that'.

User currently offlineSegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (13 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1640 times:

For the 9000th time, where does it show an actual Comair pilot had a takehome salary of $16,000 or less??? All the data i've seen has shown the lowest remitted to a pilot was about $22,000... so where did that $8,000 come out, or is ALPA forgetting about PER DIEM tax FREE pay. Or is ALPA assuming that First Officers don't get a raise...

tick tock tick tock.... Comair is DEAD thanks to ALPA! Long live ASA and ACJET!


User currently offlineCAETravlr From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 908 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (13 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1631 times:

SegmentKing - You are forgetting one thing in your "Long live ASA and ACJET!" statement... ASA is under ALPA also. Their contract is up next year I believe. I am not sure about Atlantic Coast. However, if the ALPA has their way, ASA will be the next company the either fleece for all the cash they have, or destroy. And then all the pilots who listened to them will be unemployed just like the Comair pilots.

Please don't get me wrong, I am not knocking the pilots at all. I put my life in their hands constantly, and respect them immensely. However, I have seen what the unions are capable of doing, and how they screw their own constituents. More specifically, I know what the AFA did to the UAL F/As, but it looks like the ALPA is equally inept.



A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4499 posts, RR: 33
Reply 24, posted (13 years 3 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1629 times:

ALPA issued a press release today affirming its support for the Comair pilots on strike. Interestingly, the last of the reasons that they offer is that if the Comair pilots lose, other ALPA pilots will be hurt. Translation: Either the union breaks management here, or the union loses a lot of power. Meaning they won't be able to extract more unreasonably huge settlements in the near future.

If worse comes to worse and Delta must shut down Comair, a very important test of union bullying power will take place. If a shutdown occurs, expect a press release from ALPA warning the pilots of America that flying regional a/c for a Delta entity at CVG is now a "black hole," it will be considered "struck work" and the pilots will be "scabs." (an odious and hateful word that should be as despised as the n-word).

But when ACA or whoever takes over that flying, and (as I think) the pilots *don't* succumb to ALPA bullying and blacklisting, the union will lose an important part of its power--social harassment enforcement of union discipline. Pilots are free people in a free America like anyone else, and they have every damn right to take good jobs and feed their families. Regardless of what a bunch of hothead and deluded union bosses think.

Come to think of it, Alpha, I've never heard one of our ALPA pilot compadres at the forum defend or otherwise discuss union thuggery towards independent-minded pilots who put their families first. It's a real political weak spot for unions, and one that the rest of us should make sure is kept publicly front and center.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
25 A320FA : Mesa is not doing anything wrong as long as thier flights do not carry the DL flight numbers according to ALPA rules another ALPA repersented pilot gr
26 JETPILOT : I'm interestead in seeing how many Meas pilots actually cross the picket line. The pilots may well not fly out of CVG out of respect and to save their
27 Herbie99 : Thank goodness SWA choose Norfolk over Cincinnati. I would hate to see what some people would say about SWA if they would to start service to St. Loui
28 DCA-ROCguy : Please forgive me if this post comes out duplicate...my computer is acting up and the original got eaten (I think). ALPA put out a press release today
29 Flyinryan99 : I read a post on AOL stating the definition of struck work was...I wish I remembered what it exactly said but it defined the lines of 3 tiers. 1st tie
30 Travelin man : Jetpilot -- What are you talking about???? Mesa pilots ARE NOT scabs! They do not belong to Delta, and they ARE NOT flying "struck work". As A320FA in
31 KUGN : FBI should be closely monitoring ALPA's behavior toward other airlines and their pilots operating from CVG. They should if necessary use all means nec
32 InitRef : ATR Pilot, Didn't Comair MEC declare that only Delta and Delta subsidiaries were not to fly Comair routes during the strike? Isn't (part of) the point
33 Post contains images Miller22 : ALPA gets their money just like the mob did: Scare people into paying them for "protection" Its called extorsion, and ALPA does it just as much as the
34 Post contains images RJ : A little background information for you all: Everyone knows what a "regional" airline is. Little airplanes, lots of noise, cheap tickets and short rou
35 RJ : Sorry folks, I forgot to mention the source of the article. It's called the Urban Myth and was produced by our MEC Communications Chair. It sums thing
36 DE727UPS : I talked to my Mesa buddy today who is a RJ Capt. Of course, Mesa pilot's are represented by ALPA and I doubt many would cross an ALPA picket line....
37 Travelin man : The airline industry took 20 years to make a transition into the free-market system, with plenty of turbulence for pilots along the way, but we’
38 Alpha 1 : JETPILOT, you're union drivel is so predictable, and so far from reality that it's not even credible anymore. And DE727UPS, I for one do appreciate al
39 Flashmeister : You are correct, Alpha 1, regarding the CO pilots. Two of them were found, in San Antonio, with a map of three 'scab' houses... two of which already h
40 B747-437B : Alpha1 works for CO in CLE. They fly to CVG, so he's a scab. I flew through CVG on Delta en route to SFO last weekend. I guess that makes me a scab to
41 DCA-ROCguy : RJ, your long union-PR article is unconvincing. It's typical of unions--drown people in lots of statistics that ignore the real issue: in a free marke
42 Lowfareair : >>Compare that to the $7.80 pilot crew cost per passenger at Comair.
43 Post contains links RJ : DCA-ROCguy, I had a feeling that you wouldn't be convinced by union numbers. Therefore I will provide you with a link. http://www.planebusiness.com/cg
44 SegmentKing : So again, for the 90001th time, how many Comair Pilots ACTUALLY take home $16,000 or is ALPA stuck in another lie.... i'll re-iterate. The data I've s
45 Miller22 : It all boils down to the Comair pilots want to be mainline pilots without losing seniority. That is how this all started. They want retirement, highes
46 RJ : SegmentKing, I pulled out my W-2 for the first year that I worked here. Since my hire date was in Jan. it reflects an entire year of work. In box #1 (
47 Alpha 1 : RJ, I think I'd drop the "on strike" in parenthesis. You don't have Comair to go back to-you and the other stubborn pilots there killed it off.
48 Jrlander : Would someone please clarify for me what non-pay issues exist in the Comair/ALPA dispute?
49 Flashmeister : RJ - it's not fair to quote a salary without quoting a year - what year is that W-2 for?
50 SegmentKing : RJ, AND HOW MUCH PER DIEM DID YOU GET? and why is it that some Comair managers NOW have Delta Employee ID #s now? hrm...............
51 Miller22 : RJ, If your hire date was in january, that meant you were in training until about march, unless you were hired before pay for training ended, in which
52 Post contains images Delta737 : Amazing. Once again, everyone thinks airline pilots are overpaid until they step into the cockpit. Hey, I think computer geeks are overpaid! Shouldn't
53 DE727UPS : Miller..... Once again I'll say that since you're a pilot, hate ALPA, and love and trust management so much....when your day at a union airline comes
54 Overlord : Just what United needs-another set of pilots who will sow discord among the ranks. And no, I don't respect someone who purposely walks away from their
55 Miller22 : DE727UPS - As Samuel L. Jackson once said in a great movie (pulp fiction)..."Allow me to refute." "Our management pilots are non-union and crossed our
56 Miller22 : In respect to RJ it is understood, at least in my case, that you are not the cause of people losing their jobs, but rather the union. I don't know RJ'
57 DE727UPS : Miller....you didn't comment on how you think you'll fit in as a pilot at a union airline....do you really worry about getting beat up....that's sooo
58 Alpha 1 : In his place, DE727UPS, I could accept such benefits becasue I imagine he works just as hard and just as well as any union pilot.
59 Miller22 : thx Alpha1 DE727UPS, I still don't know where youre getting this "worry about getting beat up" stuff. Where did I say that? I did say ALPA murders car
60 Delta737 : Miller- ALPA isn't going to lose this one. Au contraire... Not in this market whatsoever. Absolutely *everyone* is hiring. The strike is an excellent
61 Overlord : ALPA didn't lose, Doug? Sure they did. They destroyed an airline, and soiled the already soiled reputation of pilots as being big crybabies. And tell
62 B747-437B : Doug - You have earned the respect of everyone on this forum with your insightful comments and great advice to wannabe pilots for a long time, so it s
63 Overlord : Save your breath, Mr. B747-437B: to these guys, "The Union" is the almighty god on which all else can be sacrificed in the name of "solidarity".
64 Flashmeister : Consider the source regarding the recommendation of "Flying the Line"... it's very very biased toward the union, so of course it will portray pre-Unio
65 DCA-ROCguy : After reading another day's back and forth about the Comair pilot strike, the arguments of strike supporters remain unconvincing. To Doug Taylor: You
66 Miller22 : The reduction in maximum duty time in the new contract is a gray area. It isn't black and white to the point you can show a pilot and they will agree.
67 Iainhol : Although I am not too familiar with Comair's finances, I am sure if they charged there passengers $0.50 more, it would off set the pilots pay raise. A
68 AA-SAN : This anti-union, free-market BS is really getting to me. I hate to break it to some of you, but we don't have a free market, and never will. Yes union
69 Flashmeister : If everything were equal, AA-SAN, I may agree with you more, but you're leaving some things out. (Warning, I get a little emotional here, so I have to
70 RJ : Miller22, You must have gone to the company's web page to get your information. Unfortunately, it does not tell the whole story. As Paul Harvey would
71 Miller22 : RJ, Your explaination shows exactly why there is no end in site for this strike. Union and management can't even agree over what the OLD contract was,
72 Travatl : A) RJ, excellent posts. B) It is so dissapointing to see so many people that I truly respect posting anti-Comair pilot remarks on here. (I am neither
73 Flashmeister : To clarify things: Of course pilots deserve a decent wage. Of course pilots deserve decent work rules. Of course the flying public deserves experience
74 Flyf15 : Well, I know next to nothing about unions/strikes/all the above posts, and I'm not going to pretend I do. I'd just like to ask, in the simpliest terms
75 Alpha 1 : Iainhol, I find your interpretation of who is at fault for all the other people losing their jobs quite interesting and quite perposterous. The fact i
76 Iainhol : Alpha 1, My comments are by no means ludicrous! You wrote: -------------------- The fact is that both Comair and the NBM made offers to the pilots. Th
77 Alpha 1 : They are not running anything because the pilots are holding out for a pie-in-the-sky contract that is beyond any reason. That is not management's fau
78 Miller22 : At the beginning of these Comair threads weeks ago, it was said that an FO makes a measly $17,000 a year. Its slowly bled down to the $11,000 lainhol
79 Jrlander : I'm sorry, but I have a real issue with the idea of a regional jet being "mainline equipment". I would guess that many passengers still view them as s
80 Iainhol : Jrlander When Comair first started they where flying things like Navajo's (9 seater piston), on 30-40 minute flights, that is a regional aircraft. Now
81 DCA-ROCguy : AA-SAN, a free market is slowly becoming a reality in the airline industry, despite the best efforts of excessive-profit-hungry Six Families managemen
82 Miller22 : lainhol, I disagree with you that Comair management doesn't do anything to please pilots besides pay money. Fact is, what the company does for the pil
83 Bobnwa : Lets be realistic. Do you think if General Motor's unions went on strike, that the unions at Ford would not accept overtime to build more cars? Also,
84 Iainhol : Miller22 It is obvious this is not problem between the pilots and managers is not one that was born recently, it has been going on for years! Comair m
85 DCA-ROCguy : Iain, European labor arrangements are not comparable to the American system. Comparing British Airways' treating ATR's as mainline aircraft is apples
86 DE727UPS : DCA-ROC..... Of course you are aware that SWA's pilot group is unionized. In the past SWA's management has treated the pilot's well and the pilot's ha
87 Iainhol : DCA - It would be incredibly hard to fill those planes with experienced enough crew. Most pilots not only know what implications this action would hav
88 DC-9CAPT : This is a can of worms....... When it comes down to it, business is business. It's messed up, but I don't think that flying these routes will make the
89 DCA-ROCguy : DE727UPS.....there's a difference between "playing hardball" and destroying the company. Granted you pilots apparently are God and are free to dictate
90 Iainhol : Jim Well that is what they have to learn! Iain
91 Post contains images Miller22 : In response to DE727UPS first... Are my writings implying something I don't mean for them too? I never accused the unions of breaking any laws, but wh
92 RJ : DCA-ROCguy, You said: . So all your route comparisons and percentages, that are supposed to show how Comair pilots deserve an 85% raise instead of the
93 DCA-ROCguy : Those numbers come from Comair, Aviation Week, the Washington Post, and the New York Times. They don't have to come from a union source to be valid. T
94 WN boy : If I may reply to the original point of this thread, I believe that ATRPilot misses the true effect of Mesa's action. The people of Cincinnati do not
95 Flashmeister : I hardly think that Mesa's CVG flights right now constitute a threat -- a hub is not built overnight... and I don't think that management should cave
96 Post contains images Capt.Picard : Miller22, As usual, another brilliant set of posts-but only because I agree with you.. Thanks to everyone else too for your information & opinions; I
97 RJ : DCA-ROCguy, Now let me give you the facts. I have in front of me Contract 94' (it contain the current rates that we work under) and the company's last
98 DE727UPS : DCA-ROC..... You can believe all those fancy papers if you will....Comair management puts out a press release and the media jumps all over it. It was
99 Miller22 : Just a quick check, but am I the only pilot who doesn't agree with ALPA and the Comair situation? If there are more please post. I have heard rumors o
100 ILOVEA340 : I think that Mesa has its rights to do what they please.
101 TxAgKuwait : God, there is plenty of blame here to go around. First of all, Mesa (or any other carrier) is acting in a prudent, reasonable, and appropriate way in
102 Dasheighty : Wow If your still fuming over the MESA thing dont read this, What about the passangers? They dont give a thrust reverser about what the Comair Pilots
103 Post contains links and images Miller22 : The simple answer about MESA is that the Comiar MEC hasn't declared it struck work for airlines outside the Delta umbrella to fly it. http://www.alpa.
104 Post contains links Miller22 : Also from the ALPA website is a letter to potential Comair pilots. You can read the entire article here: http://www.alpa.org/internet/airlinenews/cmr/
105 Iainhol : Where is the honor in destroying careers before they even start And you are saying that scabs are not destroying careers? Iain
106 Alpha 1 : No, Iain, they're not-they trying to make a living for themselves and their families. But that, to guys like JETPILOT, isn't a good enough reason to s
107 JonPaulGeoRngo : Right on TxAg...Saw Varsity's Horns Off!! Thumbs Up Dasheighty, Miller22
108 Miller22 : No, lainhol, scabs do not destroy careers. I challenge somebody to come up with a number of scabs who destroyed union pilots' careers. Now compare tha
109 Iainhol : What about Eastern they certainly tried to then! Scabs are temporary repairs. They come after a lot of pain, and itch like a son of a bitch. Stitches
110 DCA-ROCguy : Great post TxAgKuwait! It's always good to hear someone offer the big picture...that the airline industry exists to fly passengers, and offer sharehol
111 Miller22 : This from the Cincinnati post: He (Sen. Jim Bunning) said he believes the last offer on the table is probably the best that Comair pilots will get. He
112 Alpha 1 : That's easily answered, Miller22, because the pilots aren't interested in a fair deal-they simply want everything they've asked for, or else they won'
113 RJ : Miller22, Here we go again. I suggest that you retract your statement regarding Comair Alpa failing to post a link to your said article. I just got ho
114 Alpha 1 : Sure the Comair pilots won't take the arbitration-it's what I said before-they'd have to back down and look like yellow-bellies in the eye's of fellow
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