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Would DL Ever Return To Compete @ DFW?  
User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 50
Posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5969 times:
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Just wondering, with the merger just about complete and the market gaining strengh again, is it conceivable that DL could one day return DFW as one of it's hubs, It seems that most of the rest of the country is covered except in the central south. With the State of Texas being one of the largest economically, and relatively lower unemployment rate(than most other states), I would imagine Dallas would make a huge statement and be ideal for growth. With SkyTeam being the only alliance without a carrier having a foothold in the Lonestar State.


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24 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineburnsie28 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 7545 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 5641 times:

I think they would only in the even AA got into some overly serious trouble.


"Some People Just Know How To Fly"- Best slogan ever, RIP NW 1926-2009
User currently offlinessides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5584 times:

As long as AA is around, the chances are slim to none. Once the merger is 100% complete and everything is integrated, DL is more likely to eliminate hubs rather than add them.

DL now technically has hubs at AMS, CVG, DTW, ATL, JFK, MEM, MSP, NRT and SLC. This is a large number of hubs, even for an airline of DL's size. People have long speculated as to what will ultimately happen with CVG and MEM, and there have been discussions about what DL will do with its NRT hub (e.g., are the Asian markets high-yielding enough to justify this hub without a SkyTeam partner&gt Wink and AMS hubs (will more ops be turned over to KLM?)

In any event, DFW willl not be in the making as long as AA is there. It makes no sense for DL to open up new hubs, let alone a hub dominated by the second-largest US carrier.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3068 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5503 times:

Quoting burnsie28 (Reply 1):
I think they would only in the event AA got into some overly serious trouble.

Agreed. DL wasn't doing all that great at DFW during it's final hub years there, so the decision had to be made whether to be all-in or all-out: Try to go toe-to-toe with AA on their home turf and main fortress hub or pull out and pool their strengths elsewhere. A mid-USA hub has a certain logistical allure but, as ANet lore states and I more-or--less believe, DL knew at the time of the DFW pull-down that the NW merger was on the horizon and that they'd soon have DTW and MSP to serve as their transcon connection points, so the DFW hub was expendable. Also, an argument could be made that MSP and DTW deal with regular stupendous amounts of snow in winter better than DFW deals with occasional bouts of frog-choking rain in the spring, tornadoes in the summer, and snow in the winter.



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User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5481 times:

Delta trying to make DFW a focus city or a hub (again) would be like American trying to start a hub at ATL. NOT gonna happen - simple as that.


"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3290 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5469 times:

Quoting TSS (Reply 3):
DL knew at the time of the DFW pull-down that the NW merger was on the horizon and that they'd soon have DTW and MSP to serve as their transcon connection points, so the DFW hub was expendable.

Say what? Delta announced the closing of the DFW hub in 2004, actually final day was in early 2005. There is NO WAY that Delta had the NW merger on the horizon. If that were the case, CVG would already be gone today!


User currently offlinesurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2865 posts, RR: 30
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5340 times:

Quoting jetjack74 (Thread starter):
with the merger just about complete and the market gaining strengh again, is it conceivable that DL could one day return DFW as one of it's hubs,

Not in the least. Within the U.S., DL already has full-fledged hubs at ATL, JFK, SLC, DTW, MEM, MSP, and CVG, not to mention significant int'l gateways and/or focus cities in the likes of SEA, HNL, IND, MCO, LGA, BOS, etc. They have plenty on their plate as it is - they don't need to try and make DFW work (again)!

Quoting jetjack74 (Thread starter):
It seems that most of the rest of the country is covered except in the central south.

Actually, DL abandoned very few markets when it closed DFW - almost everything continued to be served via ATL, CVG, and SLC. Now, some of the smaller Texan markets that were cut from the network back then have actually been resumed from the newly inherited MEM hub. I would say UA and US have the "central south" very poorly covered relative to DL!

Quoting jetjack74 (Thread starter):
the State of Texas being one of the largest economically, and relatively lower unemployment rate(than most other states), I would imagine Dallas would make a huge statement and be ideal for growth.

Atlanta has actually fared very well too. International markets make bigger statements and are more ideal for growth than any domestic markets..

Quoting jetjack74 (Thread starter):
With SkyTeam being the only alliance without a carrier having a foothold in the Lonestar State.

Just because SkyTeam doesn't have a hub in Texas doesn't mean it doesn't have a foothold there. DL serves Texas FAR better than Star did before CO (when it was just UA and US). It's not like folks in Abilene need flights that tie in to all three alliances, nor do the vast majority of SkyTeam fliers really care if they can get to Amarillo or Corpus Christi. So long as the big cities (Dallas/Houston/Austin/San Antonio) can be easily reached from North (MSP), South (MEX), East (ATL) and West (SLC) they are pretty much all set.



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineTSS From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 3068 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 5340 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 5):
There is NO WAY that Delta had the NW merger on the horizon. If that were the case, CVG would already be gone today!

I did say "as ANet lore (meaning rampant speculation   ) states and I more-or-less believe (meaning that DL and NW probably had some plans up their respective sleeves that weren't announced publicly)". Keeping the CVG hub open could certainly fall under the category of "hedging one's bets", since even the best-laid plans can go awry due to unforeseen circumstances.

As always, there is also the distinct possibility that DL and NW had no thought of merging until after DL's closure of the DFW hub, but it is fun to speculate on who was planning what when after the fact. 



Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3029 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5220 times:

...But the idea sure does bring back some warm fuzzies for this traveler...


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineUS330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 5047 times:

Not as long as AA is the 800 lb gorilla in the room. All Delta, and Skyteam, for that matter, needs is convenient and frequent flights to their domestic hubs, and a handful of flights to their international hubs (which they have in Korean Air and KLM's service to DFW).
As far as DL and Skyteam is concerned, DFW is covered. Maybe if the economy ever improved I could see Air France possibly adding CDG, but with AMS already being served, that's probably overkill.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10424 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4689 times:

Quoting TSS (Reply 3):
ANet lore states and I more-or--less believe, DL knew at the time of the DFW pull-down that the NW merger was on the horizon and that they'd soon have DTW and MSP to serve as their transcon connection points, so the DFW hub was expendable.
Quoting TSS (Reply 7):
I did say "as ANet lore (meaning rampant speculation ) states and I more-or-less believe (meaning that DL and NW probably had some plans up their respective sleeves that weren't announced publicly)". Keeping the CVG hub open could certainly fall under the category of "hedging one's bets", since even the best-laid plans can go awry due to unforeseen circumstances.

I don't think so. There weren't even any rampant rumors running around at the time and you usually hear something. At that time, DL was too busy hemorraging money to worry about merging with someone else. I think you're other speculation is more to the truth:

Quoting TSS (Reply 7):
As always, there is also the distinct possibility that DL and NW had no thought of merging until after DL's closure of the DFW hub,



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3029 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4463 times:

Quoting TSS (Reply 3):
ANet lore states and I more-or--less believe, DL knew at the time of the DFW pull-down that the NW merger was on the horizon

I'm sorry, but I think that the DL/NW merger was a product of post - 9/11 realities and a slowing economy & contracting airline market.



Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineMacsog6 From Singapore, joined Jan 2010, 531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4288 times:
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One of the issues that DL would have to face is that many of the widget loyalists in the Texas area felt that DL "betrayed" them in cutting the DFW hub. They had been loyal to DL in the face of AA for several years and many of them were quite upset at DL.

From a fare standpoint, it would likely be a good move for consumers; but I just do not see it happening any more than I see AA deciding to build a hub in ATL.



Sixty Plus Years of Flying! "I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Saint Ex
User currently offlineWESTERN737800 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 693 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4068 times:

I dont see them reopening the DFW hub unless something were to happen to AA. If that did happen I think it would spell a drawdown of MEM almost immediately.


Bring back Western Airlines!
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3894 times:

From what I understand DL has a lot of pilots and F/As who live in DFW and are based in other cities. I don't think DL has any plans of revival for DFW. Although It will always be a strong city in the network.

Maybe DL will take over DFW-AMS from KL at some point?



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineHVNandrew From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3736 times:

I've thought for a long time if DL wanted a local presence back in Texas, AUS would be the way to go. It's a booming part of the country, and the airport isn't dominated by a single carrier. I don't think a hub would necessarily be sustainable, but a sizable focus city could be an interesting idea for DL - mainline to DL strongholds such as the hubs, BOS, MCO, LAX, SEA, and some regional operations to smaller Texas/Gulf/OK cities that are either no longer in the DL network since the DFW pulldown or are still in the network, but better served through TX than ATL or MEM. Construct all of this around a two- or three-bank operation, and DL could have a neat little network going in that part of the country.

Just a thought.  


User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11604 posts, RR: 61
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3701 times:

Quoting HVNandrew (Reply 15):
AUS would be the way to go. It's a booming part of the country

The fundamentals of the AUS market - economically - are, indeed, about as good as it gets in America these days. Nonetheless, Delta would never be able to build AUS into a viable focus city as you are envisioning for a variety of reasons - chief among them the deeply-entrenched competition and the lack of adequate facilities.

Quoting HVNandrew (Reply 15):
and the airport isn't dominated by a single carrier

You're right - it's dominated by two and a half carriers. At Bergstrom, AA and Southwest pretty much call the shots, and have a huge hold on much of the local market at both ends of the spectrum. They form sort of a high-low mix and the natural duopoly between them that accounts for nearly 2/3 of market share. Anybody doubting this should just witness AA's sometimes more-than-hourly departures to DFW: when they announce boarding for Executive Platinum and Platinum AAdvantage members, often times more than half the boarding area crowds the boarding door - literally.

And much of the big-time traffic left over after AA and Southwest is picked up by Continental, which also has a not-insignificant presence there.

Quoting HVNandrew (Reply 15):
BOS

Up against JetBlue, Delta wouldn't be able to compete. The market is not big enough for both of them, and JetBlue is bigger/stronger in Boston and has lower costs.

Quoting HVNandrew (Reply 15):
MCO

Again, good luck up against JetBlue and Southwest.

Quoting HVNandrew (Reply 15):
LAX

AA is the massive heavy-hitter on this route, and carries a huge amount of surprisingly strongly-yielding traffic. Southwest is there, too. I do not believe there is enough room for Delta.

Quoting HVNandrew (Reply 15):
SEA

Again, this market is only big enough for one airline. And that airline is Alaska. Their costs are lower, they have a full hub in Seattle, and they can benefit at the AUS end from the huge AA frequent flyer presence.

Quoting HVNandrew (Reply 15):
and some regional operations to smaller Texas/Gulf/OK cities that are either no longer in the DL network since the DFW pulldown or are still in the network

There are no smaller "Texas/Gulf/OK" markets within 500mi of AUS that can profitably/viably be served from Austin that aren't already - most by Southwest. The two biggest regional markets I can think of that currently lack nonstops to Austin are Amarillo and Oklahoma City, and neither market is particularly large, and both are well-served with connections via other hubs.

Quoting HVNandrew (Reply 15):
Construct all of this around a two- or three-bank operation

That is physically impossible within the current terminal at Bergstrom. There just isn't room, unless Delta wants to start a 2- or 3-bank hub with lots of ramp-level boarding, which I doubt.


User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3636 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 16):
AA is the massive heavy-hitter on this route, and carries a huge amount of surprisingly strongly-yielding traffic. Southwest is there, too. I do not believe there is enough room for Delta.

Not necessarily true. UA is also very strong in LA and DL can certainly hold their own (including their routes to Hawaii.) You're not going to see AA try LAX-MSP/MEM/IND/DTW when DL will easily hand it to them in these already ex-NW established markets. Although AA will stay strong on LAX-BNA/IAD/JFK/MIA/DFW/ORD.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
User currently offlineworldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3610 times:

DL will not refocus or rehub DFW... but keep in mind that DL is the 2nd largest carrier at DFW now and has service to a half dozen destinations... far more than just about any other carrier that is not AA affiliated.

User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11604 posts, RR: 61
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3586 times:

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 17):
Not necessarily true. UA is also very strong in LA and DL can certainly hold their own (including their routes to Hawaii.) You're not going to see AA try LAX-MSP/MEM/IND/DTW when DL will easily hand it to them in these already ex-NW established markets. Although AA will stay strong on LAX-BNA/IAD/JFK/MIA/DFW/ORD.

In my opinion, it is necessarily true.

I do not believe that Delta could successfully fly Austin-LAX. I think that given the huge local presence of AA in the market, plus United and Southwest, plus arguably JetBlue with LGB, there is simply not enough room for another competitor - Delta or another airline.


User currently offlinessides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3561 times:

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 14):
Maybe DL will take over DFW-AMS from KL at some point?

Not. Gonna. Happen.

Quoting HVNandrew (Reply 15):
I've thought for a long time if DL wanted a local presence back in Texas, AUS would be the way to go. It's a booming part of the country, and the airport isn't dominated by a single carrier.

What commavia said. Other than the three (or 2.5, as he put it) dominant carriers at AUS, you're hard-pressed to see anything but an RJ from other airlines on some days. AUS is very well-served by the three Texas carriers, and pax there give them tremendous loyalty.

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 17):
UA is also very strong in LA and DL can certainly hold their own

I think commavia was talking specifically about the AUS-LAX route, which is well-served by AA and WN. That's why UA doesn't even fly AUS-LAX, rather sticking to AUS-SFO (albeit on its regional carrier).



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineAirCanada014 From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 1513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3357 times:

There's no way DL can compete with mega giant AA at DFW. Lets hope they don't even consider making DFW a hub.
DL has way too many hubs.


User currently offlineblink182 From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 1999, 5482 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3053 times:

Quoting Macsog6 (Reply 12):
One of the issues that DL would have to face is that many of the widget loyalists in the Texas area felt that DL "betrayed" them in cutting the DFW hub. They had been loyal to DL in the face of AA for several years and many of them were quite upset at DL.

Agreed.   
A while ago, the general sentiment on this board, or at least one thread, was that DL's pulldown of DFW was too drastic too quickly. I don't know about now, some five years later, but at the time, there were a lot of loyal DL FFs in the DFW area, and I think reducing DFW down to just ATL, CVG, and SLC may have been too drastic. JFK/LGA was later added. I remember that some people believed DL could have kept some form of LAX, SFO, BOS, DCA, and arguably IAH and ORD services. Now may be too late for this to happen, however.

Quoting Tommy767 (Reply 14):
Maybe DL will take over DFW-AMS from KL at some point?

I don't have any facts behind me, but given how desperate DFW has been for international carriers, I would not be surprised if DFW's agreement with KL mandated that the flight be flown with KL metal. That's my   



Give me a break, I created this username when I was a kid...
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2974 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 16):
At Bergstrom, AA and Southwest pretty much call the shots

...with AS adding 2x/daily "Nerd Bird" route..  

Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 18):
but keep in mind that DL is the 2nd largest carrier at DFW now

Even with the merger, I thought it was still US.....  



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineTommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2798 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 19):
In my opinion, it is necessarily true.

My bad Commavia. I thought you were referring to general LAX flights. But yes, AA is dominant in the AUS-LAX market and the only other airline I could see flying it is UAEX on CR7.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
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