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Kitty Hawk Air Cargo?  
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7596 times:

I thought this company went bankrupt?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/KHC901

30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinefalcon flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 7551 times:

New operating certificate or reincarnation of the old one? Most likely a new operator using an outdated identifier. Kitty Hawk's old ICAO identifier was KHA.

[Edited 2010-04-06 15:32:01]


My definition of cool ? Not trying so hard to be cool.
User currently offlineexFWAOONW From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7403 times:

I'm sure the city of Fort Wayne and FWA would be interested as Kitty Hawk left them holding the bag on a lot of infrastructure improvements both on and off the field.


Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7388 times:

KHC - Kitty Hawk Airways - was a different airline - a short lived one based at DAL, not Kitty Hawk Air Cargo based at DFW.

Obviously one of Flightaware's errors as it shows several flights from SEGU to the US. Neither KHC nor KHA flew to that airport.


User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 7366 times:

I thought maybe the company was back flying routes for a contract bid.

User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 7147 times:

I cannot find any completed flights on Flightaware, so it looks like one of their errors which comes from loading schedules in advance rather than waiting for actual flight plans to be filed.

Sorry - KHA had a strong presence at DFW, but FWA really got hung on the infrastructure costs when the airline folded.

After some searching it looks like what was once Kitty Hawk Air Cargo (KHA / KR) may now owned by AirFreight.com - they look to be a freight forwarder and aircraft leasing agent. They do not appear to have any aircraft or lease any for their own flights. Their parent is something called The Expedited Group

http://airfreight.com



[Edited 2010-04-06 20:22:34]

User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4599 posts, RR: 22
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 6943 times:

Quoting exFWAOONW (Reply 2):
I'm sure the city of Fort Wayne and FWA would be interested as Kitty Hawk left them holding the bag on a lot of infrastructure improvements both on and off the field.

The whole situation with KHA just blew for FWA. Hopefully they'll be able to find someone to utilize the facilities there. At least when they backed out on setting up their new hub/mx facility in TOL, they hadn't broke ground yet before skipping out to Terre Haute.


User currently offlineJETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6869 times:

They also screwed over Connie Kalitta pretty bad. He was furious with KHI. KHA purchased AIA and ran it into the ground not 3 years later. Connie purchased the operating certificate and started Kalitta Air. He was really upset about the airline he started destroyed by someone else with little regard.

User currently offlinefalcon flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6678 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 5):
I cannot find any completed flights on Flightaware, so it looks like one of their errors which comes from loading schedules in advance rather than waiting for actual flight plans to be filed.

Can someone please explain how flightaware "loads" schedules? I was under the impression that flightaware or any of the other ASDI vendors simply use the feed provided by the FAA.



My definition of cool ? Not trying so hard to be cool.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25363 posts, RR: 49
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6666 times:

Airlines often either submit long term monthly or seasonal schedules to ATC (very common especialy in Europe) or prefile flights about 24hours out.
Information is helpful to ATC to predict airport flow and route demand.

You can sometimes see this in places like flightaware.com with flights listing being available a day prior to intended movement.

Here in as example:
UAL556 LAX-SFO is already in the system for tomorrow April 8th, while todays flight on April 7th arrived only 1 hour ago.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL556



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineexFWAOONW From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 405 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 6594 times:

Ironically, Kitty Hawk was a replacement for Burllington Air Express that skipped out of FWA a few years before them.

BAX rented a converted hanger that belonged to the In Air National Guard. FWA didn't spend a lot of money keeping BAX and BAX left to build an all new facility at TOL. FWA "learned their lesson" and made improvements for Kitty Hawk, and look what happened, anyway.



Is just me, or is flying not as much fun anymore?
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 31
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6382 times:

Quoting falcon flyer (Reply 8):
Can someone please explain how flightaware "loads" schedules? I was under the impression that flightaware or any of the other ASDI vendors simply use the feed provided by the FAA.

The way I have be told it works is that actual flight information comes from the FAA.

However, they and similar services project airline schedules. That is how they say Flight XXX101 will be tomorrow from airport ABC to DEF to GHI to ETC. That data does not come from the FAA.

When you see scheduled arrivals and scheduled departures more than a couple hours in advance, they may be based on past history, past FAA data, or web searches of airline schedules and other sources. From the FlightAware FAQ:

Quote:
Where is this data from?

FlightAware compiles, aggregates, and processes data from a variety of government sources as well as FlightAware's proprietary flight tracking network. FlightAware's proprietary algorithms calculate delay and arrival time estimates to offer the most up-to-date and reliable flight tracking data on the Internet.

If they relied solely on FAA data feeds, they would not be predictive of flights which have not been filed with the FAA.

You can really see the impact of their system which something really unusual happens like a closure due to weather. This past winter when major US east coast airports were closed, FlightAware kept showing scheduled arrivals and scheduled departures of many flights which had already been cancelled.

Their system works pretty good. But in the tens of thousands of flights per day - some ghost flights get entered.


User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 6335 times:

It was too bad, Kitty Hawk I thought had a good business plan, flying around some not often used types, 737Fs to replace their beautiful 727Fs

User currently offlineAndrewUber From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2528 posts, RR: 40
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 6300 times:

The City of Fort Wayne invested a TON of money into FWA for Kitty Hawk. I really hope some airline can use that facility someday, it was very well designed.

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 12):
It was too bad, Kitty Hawk I thought had a good business plan, flying around some not often used types, 737Fs to replace their beautiful 727Fs

The fleet was awesome. Loved the new 737's, but those noisy 72's are my favorites.


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Drew   



I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1597 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 6241 times:

Quoting JETPILOT (Reply 7):
They also screwed over Connie Kalitta pretty bad. He was furious with KHI. KHA purchased AIA and ran it into the ground not 3 years later. Connie purchased the operating certificate and started Kalitta Air. He was really upset about the airline he started destroyed by someone else with little regard.

There is a lot more to that story. Connie made out like a bandit, Kitty Hawk is the best thing that ever happened to him.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineTZTriStar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1452 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6127 times:

Quoting JETPILOT (Reply 7):
They also screwed over Connie Kalitta pretty bad. He was furious with KHI. KHA purchased AIA and ran it into the ground not 3 years later. Connie purchased the operating certificate and started Kalitta Air. He was really upset about the airline he started destroyed by someone else with little regard.

I have to say here...then why in the hell did he sell it in the first place? He was compensated very well in the sale and had a seat on the Kitty Hawk board. He doesn't seem to be a dumb guy so he of course knew he no longer would have control over his airline once Kitty Hawk purchased it so I don't fully believe this story. Yes, he made out quite well by re-purchasing the certificate in bankruptcy court and re-starting Kalitta Air I am sure with a fraction of what Kitty Hawk originally paid him for it.

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 14):
There is a lot more to that story. Connie made out like a bandit, Kitty Hawk is the best thing that ever happened to him.

Exactly.



35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1597 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6092 times:

Quoting TZTriStar500 (Reply 15):
Yes, he made out quite well by re-purchasing the certificate in bankruptcy court and re-starting Kalitta Air I am sure with a fraction of what Kitty Hawk originally paid him for it.

Pennies on the dollar..

Kitty Hawk bought a struggling airline off Connie and they bit off more than they could chew. The L-1011 and it's problems had a lot to do with AIA's struggles. Connie pulled off the old selling of a ketchup popsicle to a woman wearing white gloves trick on that one.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlinefalcon flyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1325 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 6038 times:

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 16):
Connie pulled off the old selling of a ketchup popsicle to a woman wearing white gloves trick on that one.

Yeah he did. Never could figure out why Kitty Hawk had such a hardon for the large aircraft business, especially when it was already starting to show signs of weakness and vulnerability. They might still be around if it wasn't for the AIA fiasco.



My definition of cool ? Not trying so hard to be cool.
User currently offlineTZTriStar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1452 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5978 times:

Quoting Tb727 (Reply 16):
Pennies on the dollar..

Kitty Hawk bought a struggling airline off Connie and they bit off more than they could chew. The L-1011 and it's problems had a lot to do with AIA's struggles. Connie pulled off the old selling of a ketchup popsicle to a woman wearing white gloves trick on that one.

True and then used part of that money to ultimately buy it back which is what I meant.

Quoting falcon flyer (Reply 17):
Yeah he did. Never could figure out why Kitty Hawk had such a hardon for the large aircraft business, especially when it was already starting to show signs of weakness and vulnerability. They might still be around if it wasn't for the AIA fiasco.

Agreed, if they had stayed smaller which they ultimately ended up before bankruptcy and liquidation, they may have well been still around.



35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offlineseattle From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5948 times:

Quoting JETPILOT (Reply 7):
They also screwed over Connie Kalitta pretty bad. He was furious with KHI. KHA purchased AIA and ran it into the ground not 3 years later. Connie purchased the operating certificate and started Kalitta Air. He was really upset about the airline he started destroyed by someone else with little regard.

Myself being a previous Kitty Hawk employee I can tell you that this was in fact not true. Not only did connie Kalitta make a ton of money on that deal that everyone knew was not a good idea to begin with after the Kitty Hawk International side of the company failed miserably and Connie bought the certificate back for pocket change Kitty Hawk tried to offer a deal to buy the company a second time for another horendous price. How many times does your hand have to be burnt by the boiling water before you stop putting your hand in the pot? I jumped ship not soon before they closed ground handling in Seattle and shortly after went under.


User currently offlineMrSkyGuy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5809 times:

Ultimately I think it was the scheduled side of Kittyhawk's business and the sudden upended change to the 733 that ultimately sank the airline. I was close to one of the key players on mahogany row during KHA's last year, and he made it clear that it was a Catch-22 situation: changing from scheduled service would hurt them heavily in the short term, but it was a long-term benefit--but they didn't have enough capital to ride out the short-term pain.


"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1597 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5649 times:

Quoting MrSkyGuy (Reply 20):
Ultimately I think it was the scheduled side of Kittyhawk's business and the sudden upended change to the 733 that ultimately sank the airline

I think that really did hurt KHA. The 733 is just not a good freighter in my opinion. That was a bit of a head scratcher for me when they started operating them. I fly with a couple of long time ex-KHA guys right now and they loved flying the scheduled stuff and I sure wish it would come back but that's just not in going to work right now in today's economy.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offline413X3 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 1983 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5624 times:

I wonder if the change to a 737 was just a quick and not well thought out adjustment to rising fuel prices?

User currently offlineTb727 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 1597 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 5575 times:

Quoting 413X3 (Reply 22):
I wonder if the change to a 737 was just a quick and not well thought out adjustment to rising fuel prices?

It might have been. The 72 is a very hard airplane to replace on a few different levels. The 733 burns less, can go into shorter strips, but it can't carry the weight and that is important for the kind of bulk stuff they carried not to mention they are expensive to buy and convert.



Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
User currently offlineJETPILOT From United States of America, joined May 1999, 3130 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5516 times:

Quoting seattle (Reply 19):
Myself being a previous Kitty Hawk employee I can tell you that this was in fact not true. Not only did connie Kalitta make a ton of money on that deal that everyone knew was not a good idea to begin with after the Kitty Hawk International side of the company failed miserably and Connie bought the certificate back for pocket change Kitty Hawk tried to offer a deal to buy the company a second time for another horendous price. How many times does your hand have to be burnt by the boiling water before you stop putting your hand in the pot? I jumped ship not soon before they closed ground handling in Seattle and shortly after went under.

Myself being a frmer Kalitta pilot can tell you that this wasn't about money. Connie took care of his pilots and promised that he wouldn't sell the airline without a guarantee that his employees jobs wouldn't be in jeapoardy. i know he made money in the end but that was not his intention.

Kittylitter was as mismanaged as they all were. ATI, Express.net, Custom Air Transport, Fine Air etc.


25 B727LVR : Didn't he use Kitty Hawk to get rid of his DC-8's as well? I heard this from a former classmate who is an Aviation journalist. I was working in ROW w
26 Tb727 : I have a soft spot in my heart for the 8. That is a really good freight airplane and is still a very viable aircraft if someone were to pick up the U
27 Post contains links 413X3 : Interesting flightaware observation... former Kitty Hawk DC-9F flying freight. Must be for USA Jet or Ameristar? http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N1
28 fx1816 : So nice to see those little planes still flying, I always thought the DC91 was a pretty cool plane. FX1816
29 falcon flyer : Unless something has recently changed, it doesn't belong to either for USA Jet or Ameristar. It flies for Skyway out of Kissimmee, FL and has for qui
30 rfields5421 : At Ameristar - the Wachendorfer's change the registration to end in the letters TW.
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