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NW DC-10 Usage For Long Range  
User currently offlineredtailsforever From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 107 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 10945 times:

I Looked thru the archives, but no luck. It seems, that Northwest bought the DC-10 series 40's for the range/payload with the Pratt's. But growing up around MSP, It seems they only used them on short high capacity routes. When Northwest started pushing alot of TATL in the early 90's(Amsterdam, London), they were using used DC-10 series 30's. My question. Did they ever use the DC10 40's to their potential for long range routes?

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePWM2TXLHopper From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1321 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 10784 times:

Yeah, they used them Internationally on long haul. Couldn't tell you the exact routes or the years, but I'm sure they did. Plenty of photo's in the database of the -40's abroad.

NW DC-10-40's at Frankfurt, Germany


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Photo © Gerhard Plomitzer



London-Gatwick, UK


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Photo © Richard Vandervord



Dublin, Ireland


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Photo © Robert Reid



Paris-CDG, France


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Photo © AlainDurand



Glasgow, Scotland


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Photo © James Gardner



Copenhagen, Denmark


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Photo © Ralf Meyermann



Amsterdam, Netherlands


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Photo © Hendrik Bervoets



[Edited 2010-04-07 22:24:27]

User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12408 posts, RR: 37
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10632 times:

At one stage, NW had a policy of only using 747s for international routes, so until they started using the DC10s on international routes - which I think was in '86 or '87, the type was only used on domestic routes, although this included Hawaii.

I flew from DUB to JFK, via SNN, in 1987 and I think (without being 100% sure) that this was the first year that they used the DC10s to Europe, at least. I'm not sure if they ever used the DC10s on routes to Japan. At that stage (1987), the airline had a route from DUB-SNN-BOS and PIK (Prestwick)-SNN-JFK, so I had to change plane at SNN.

When Swissair began replacing its DC10-30s with MD11s, from about 1992-4, NW bought its old -30s and supplemented these with DC10s from KE and JD, using them for long haul until the A330s came along in 2005/6.


User currently offlineDazed767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5489 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 10531 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 2):
I'm not sure if they ever used the DC10s on routes to Japan.

KIX and NRT got them.


User currently offlineThe777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6500 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 10471 times:

NW also purchased DC-10-30s from TG.

The777Man



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User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8544 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 10467 times:
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Quoting The777Man (Reply 4):
NW also purchased DC-10-30s from TG.

I didn't know that . Pardon me for going OT but with the close links between TG and SK were the TG -10s also built to KSSU specs ? If they were I guess that they would have been good running mates for the ex SR birds .



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently online747classic From Netherlands, joined Aug 2009, 2085 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 10435 times:

NW used the DC-10-40's on a few international routes alongside the 747's until the introduction of the (secondhand) DC10-30's.

Thereafter more international routes were flown by the more fuel efficient DC10-30's.
Also the MTOW and maximimum fuel capacity of the NW DC-10-30's were better suited for long haul operations.

See for details of the NW DC10 fleet : http://mama.indstate.edu/users/dougie/nwafleet/DC10.html



Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
User currently offlinesurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2853 posts, RR: 30
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 10289 times:

Quoting redtailsforever (Thread starter):
But growing up around MSP, It seems they only used them on short high capacity routes.

What routes were these? I grew up flying UA from ORD, but they mostly had the DC-10-10s (even less range/efficiency than the -40s) and you found them mostly on the trunk routes out West (ORD-DEN/PHX/LAS/SEA/SFO/LAX).



Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8282 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 9940 times:
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NW did fly some west coast to Japan routes with DC-10's. SFO to NRT was one before the A330's arrived.

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 9778 times:

NW did routinely use the -40's in TATL flights, Hawaii, and West Coast-Asia flights up until they acquired the second-hand -30's in the early 90's. TPAC was still predominantly 747-100/200/400.

The -40's were dogs performance-wise but NW have a very limited TATL network prior to the NW-KL alliance so they were fine using their -40's from the few routes they had from DTW, BOS, and MSP.

NW placed a large order for A330s and A340s in the late 80's which would've been their TATL aircraft of choice but then deffered the order when their finances were in shambles in the early '90's.

With the NW-KLM alliance, NW rapidly and desperately needed aircraft to grow their TATL network. Unable to afford the new Airbus, they went and acquired second-hand DC-10-30's from airlines they were retiring them at that point. NW went and cherrypicked the best-of-the-best of -30's that were available and flew them up through 2005 (actually very early 2006).

Once the -30's arrived, the -40's reverted to domestic and Hawaii service, with the occasional international sub.
Routes like DTW-MSP, MEM, SEA, SFO, LAX, LAS, PHX; MSP-SEA, SFO, LAX, PHX, LAS, BOS, MKE, DTW, MEM; MEM-MSP; HNL - SFO, LAX, SEA were all common DC-10-40 domestic routes, similar to the 753s today.

MSP-HNL (was initially a 742) and the occasional DTW-HNL were typically flown with the -30's due to the longer distance.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 8):
NW did fly some west coast to Japan routes with DC-10's. SFO to NRT was one before the A330's arrived.

This for years had been a 747-100/200, then it was downgraded to a DC-10-30. This was typically a -30, but on occasion they sub'bed a -40 until they were retired.


User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9541 times:

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 9):
NW went and cherrypicked the best-of-the-best of -30's that were available and flew them up through 2005 (actually very early 2006).

You're off by a year. The final flight, HNL-MSP, was operated on 07 January 2007 by ship# 1237 (N237NW)

Quoting redtailsforever (Thread starter):
My question. Did they ever use the DC10 40's to their potential for long range routes?

My dad was a NW DC10 FO back in the late 80's and going off of his old logbooks, he flew some of the following routes, all on the DC10-40:

BOS-LGW
BOS-PIK
BOS-SNN
BOS-FRA

DTW-FRA

SEA-HNL
SFO-HNL
LAX-HNL

PIK-SNN
PIK-FRA
LGW-FRA



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlinealexinwa From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 9508 times:

How about the old SEA-Osaka/Seoul/Hong Kong service? I think Seoul was a 747. Did those 747's have the legs for SEA-HKG?


You mad Bro???
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3193 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9427 times:

Quoting alexinwa (Reply 11):
How about the old SEA-Osaka/Seoul/Hong Kong service? I think Seoul was a 747. Did those 747's have the legs for SEA-HKG?

Yes, SEA-HKG was well within the range of the 742. NW even used the 742 on JFK-NRT for some years, albeit with not-uncommon fuel stops in ANC. Only the 744 was able to consistently do JFK-NRT nonstop, never having to worry about ANC tech stops.

Anyhow, SEA-HKG is 6500mi, JFK-NRT is 6745mi.



A340-500: 4 engines 4 long haul. 777-200LR: 2 engines 4 longer haul
User currently offlineTZTriStar500 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 1451 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 9312 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
I didn't know that . Pardon me for going OT but with the close links between TG and SK were the TG -10s also built to KSSU specs ? If they were I guess that they would have been good running mates for the ex SR birds .

It didn't matter since NW modified them to their own specs prior to service entry.



35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7405 posts, RR: 50
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 7234 times:
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Quoting redtailsforever (Thread starter):
It seems, that Northwest bought the DC-10 series 40's for the range/payload with the Pratt's. But growing up around MSP, It seems they only used them on short high capacity routes.

NWA selected the DC10-40(originally the -20 series) over the -10 series and as an alternative to the 747SP.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 2):
At one stage, NW had a policy of only using 747s for international routes, so until they started using the DC10s on international routes - which I think was in '86 or '87, the type was only used on domestic routes, although this included Hawaii.

What said-policy was this? In the 1980's, the DC10's were used frequently used on scheduled and charter flights to Europe. There was no "policy", they were used where they were needed.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 6):
NW used the DC-10-40's on a few international routes alongside the 747's until the introduction of the (secondhand) DC10-30's.

Although the -30's were the preferred DC10 aircraft for overseas, we used the -40's frequently through the 1990's during the onset of expansion to India and Asia. In 2000, we reconfigured the -40s to 44 seats and removing them permenantly. from int'l service. I flew many, many trips to Europe out of DTW during the 1990's, even when we had the -30's in the fleet

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 9):
Once the -30's arrived, the -40's reverted to domestic and Hawaii service, with the occasional international sub.
Routes like DTW-MSP, MEM, SEA, SFO, LAX, LAS, PHX; MSP-SEA, SFO, LAX, PHX, LAS, BOS, MKE, DTW, MEM; MEM-MSP; HNL - SFO, LAX, SEA were all common DC-10-40 domestic routes, similar to the 753s today.

That occured in the late 1998/1999 timeframe.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24837 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6977 times:

Quoting kaitak (Reply 2):
When Swissair began replacing its DC10-30s with MD11s, from about 1992-4, NW bought its old -30s and supplemented these with DC10s from KE and JD
Quoting The777Man (Reply 4):
NW also purchased DC-10-30s from TG.

I think NW acquired 24 DC-10-30s. They originated with the following carriers, although some also had other operators after the original customer. For example, one of the Swissair aircraft spent several years with JAT after being retired by Swissair.

Swissair - 8
Thai - 4
Korean Air - 3
Varig - 3
KLM - 2
Japan Air System - 2
Malaysian - 1
SAS - 1


User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7405 posts, RR: 50
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 6850 times:
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We added 1243 and 1244 in 1999.


Made from jets!
User currently offlineredtailsforever From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6514 times:

Thanks for the info. I'm glad they didn't just use them all the time just flying 1-3 hr flights. The short Northwest trips they used on the DC-10 made Candian Pacific's DC-10 flights from Toronto-Tokyo really impressive. It made me wonder if Northwest could of done long-haul Asian DC-10 flights when capacity was too low for a 747.

User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8544 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6455 times:
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Quoting redtailsforever (Reply 17):
It made me wonder if Northwest could of [sic]done long-haul Asian DC-10 flights when capacity was too low for a 747.

According to reply three they did do Asian DC-10 flights , so I guess the answer is "Yes , they could've"

Quoting Dazed767 (Reply 3):

Quoting kaitak (Reply 2):
I'm not sure if they ever used the DC10s on routes to Japan ,
KIX and NRT got them.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlinegunsontheroof From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3500 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6155 times:

Quoting alexinwa (Reply 11):
Did those 747's have the legs for SEA-HKG?

NW flew SEA-HKG for several years in the 1990s using the 742. I can recall seeing those flights at the gate in SEA when I was younger...there are a couple photos of SEA-bound flights at Kai Tak here on a.net.


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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24837 posts, RR: 22
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 5820 times:

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 14):
Quoting redtailsforever (Thread starter):
It seems, that Northwest bought the DC-10 series 40's for the range/payload with the Pratt's. But growing up around MSP, It seems they only used them on short high capacity routes.

NWA selected the DC10-40(originally the -20 series) over the -10 series and as an alternative to the 747SP.

NW ordered most of their DC-10-40s 5 years before the 747SP program was even launched.


User currently offlineThe777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6500 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 5088 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 5):
were the TG -10s also built to KSSU specs ?

Hi Kiwiandrew! No idea if the TG DC-10-30s were built to KSSU specs; perhaps Viscount724 knows or someone else ?

The TG DC-10-30s were some of the last DC-10s built.

The777Man



Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly....CI, MU, LX and LH 777s
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7521 posts, RR: 28
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4794 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 10):
Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 9):
NW went and cherrypicked the best-of-the-best of -30's that were available and flew them up through 2005 (actually very early 2006).

You're off by a year. The final flight, HNL-MSP, was operated on 07 January 2007 by ship# 1237 (N237NW)

Yep, you're right, I forgot. NW was still flying a few DC-10s into AMS in Summer 2006. I believe that MEM, BOS, MSP still had DC-10-30s into AMS in Summer 2006. I believe in October 2006 they finally removed the DC-10 from TATL service and they continued to do military, NFL charters, operational subs, and MSP, NRT, KIX-HNL until January 2007.

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 16):
We added 1243 and 1244 in 1999.

Yep, 2 of the last passenger DC-10s ever built, in 1988 I believe.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 18):
Quoting redtailsforever (Reply 17):
It made me wonder if Northwest could of [sic]done long-haul Asian DC-10 flights when capacity was too low for a 747.

According to reply three they did do Asian DC-10 flights , so I guess the answer is "Yes , they could've"

NW operated several Asian routes with the DC-10.
SEA-NRT
SEA-KIX
PDX-NRT
SFO-NRT
HNL-NRT
HNL-KIX
And several interport NRT routes, like NRT-SIN, ICN, etc.

Once enough A330-200's were delivered in late 2004, the DC-10 was done (other than the occasional operational sub) with West Coast-Asia. HNL-NRT/KIX continued to see DC-10s through late 2006


User currently offlinesankaps From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 2255 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4734 times:

Quoting The777Man (Reply 21):
The TG DC-10-30s were some of the last DC-10s built.

IIRC, the last 2 DC10-30s that NWA acquired were -30ERs from Thai; these were ship #s 1243 and 1244. Whenever possible, they would be routed on the AMS-BOM sector as these were the only ones that were assured of making the range in both directions regardless of season or wind patterns without payload restrictions.


User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4636 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
NW ordered most of their DC-10-40s 5 years before the 747SP program was even launched.

NW when they ordered the DC-10-40 (originally a -20) was because Donald Nyrop the then CEO wanted a Pratt powered DC-10 but didn't want his pratt powered DC-10 a series 20 to seem inferior to the GE powered -30 so he insisted they make it a -40. But fast forward to present day the DC-10-40 was a rare bird and maintenance was even worse then a DC-10-30 which is why NW stripped the 40's off the atlantic runs and kept them domestic in the end the cowls were almost impossible to get so they were the first to be retired.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
25 United960 : If my recollection of NWs PR materials is correct, I think they used the DC-10-40s for transpacs beginning soon after their delivery in 1972. My sense
26 Viscount724 : NW also ordered their DC-10-40s with the lower-thrust JT9D-20 or -20J engine option. JL, the only other original customer for the -40 (for the same re
27 747classic : The P&W JT9D-59A was not avaliable, when the 22 NW DC-40 were delivered, between March 1972 and December 1974.( Type Certificate No. E3NE, issued
28 SYfan100 : Really when you look at how Northwest used their Dc-10s, they used them all over the place like people have mentioned Asia and Europe of course. And t
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