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Delta Applies For DTW-GRU  
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32785 posts, RR: 72
Posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 19987 times:

Delta has filed an application with The Department of Transportation to offer daily service between Detroit and Sao Paulo with a 767-300ER.

Delta initially plans to offer two flights a week (presumably transferring them from LAX-GRU) starting in November.

Then, Delta has applied for five additional frequencies when more GRU frequencies become available. So, essentially, Delta is applying for "first dibs" on something that is not even available yet. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out with DOT.


a.
197 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23021 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 19995 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Thread starter):
It will be very interesting to see how this plays out with DOT.

  

Removing the game playing aspect, I think DTW-GRU is a solid application (new Brasil market, relatively unserved part of the United States, better local market than a CLT-GIG). Like you, though, I'm not sure how the way Delta went about it will affect their chances.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineDFWEagle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1071 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 19973 times:

So, has Delta actually even requested any of the 14 available (non-GRU) frequencies?


Ryan / HKG
User currently offlinessides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 19975 times:

Is DL trying to capture Brazil-bound traffic from Asia via its DTW hub? To me, this seems like the only logical justification for this route.


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32785 posts, RR: 72
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 19976 times:

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 2):
So, has Delta actually even requested any of the 14 available (non-GRU) frequencies?

No. The business day is closed and applications were due today. Looks like AA might get everything it asked for, but still have to wait and see if CO or NK does anything.

Delta has no rational basis for applying for the non-GRU slots considering how poorly it utilizes the ten it already has.



a.
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 19977 times:

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 2):
So, has Delta actually even requested any of the 14 available (non-GRU) frequencies?

Yes, five.

Read about it on:

http://www.regulations.gov/search/Re...#documentDetail?R=0900006480ad2f84


User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 19926 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 1):
Quoting mah4546 (Thread starter):
It will be very interesting to see how this plays out with DOT.

Removing the game playing aspect, I think DTW-GRU is a solid application (new Brasil market, relatively unserved part of the United States, better local market than a CLT-GIG).

You can also add in significantly better feed from the Asian flights as well. Obviously that's not necessarily in the interest of the DOT (seeing as how Asian connections to South America don't matter to the DOT, only US citizens do, yadda-yadda), but it would certainly help the performance of the flight.


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32785 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 19884 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 5):
Yes, five.

Read about it on:

But is it from this pool of fourteen? It is worded so confusingly. But I guess you are right, where else would the slots come from.

DOT isn't going to go for it, IMO, unless GRU actually does become open in time.



a.
User currently offlineNeo From Brazil, joined Jan 2001, 672 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 19882 times:

Quoting DFWEagle (Reply 2):
So, has Delta actually even requested any of the 14 available (non-GRU) frequencies?

Not today.. but a second document is expected to be released soon.. for the new frequencies.

I hope ATL-VCP is there.....

Rgs,

Neo


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32785 posts, RR: 72
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 19843 times:

Quoting Neo (Reply 8):

Not today.. but a second document is expected to be released soon.. for the new frequencies.

Documents are due today. I believe Delta actually did apply from the pool of fourteen. Those five DTW-GRU flights come from the fourteen, conditioned on GRU opening up.



a.
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 19757 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 7):
But is it from this pool of fourteen? It is worded so confusingly. But I guess you are right, where else would the slots come from.

Yes, from that pool with one of Delta's famous footnotes:

Delta has entered into a transaction with US Airways, which involves, inter alia, the
mutual transfer of LGA and DCA slots and U.S.-Brazil frequencies. In Docket OST-
2009-0197, Delta and US Airways propose the contingent transfer of Delta’s Atlanta-Rio
de Janeiro frequencies, and US Airways’ Charlotte-Rio de Janeiro frequencies, which
would create new opportunities usable at Sao Paulo. If that transaction is not
consummated, Delta requests the allocation of five frequencies for Atlanta-Rio de
Janeiro service, which would free Delta’s unrestricted Atlanta-Rio de Janeiro frequencies
for use on the Detroit-Sao Paulo route (while maintaining daily Atlanta-Rio de Janeiro
service).


User currently offlineelbandgeek From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 756 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 19664 times:

Quoting ssides (Reply 3):
Is DL trying to capture Brazil-bound traffic from Asia via its DTW hub?

I'd say so

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=NRT-DTW,+DTW-GRU,+NRT-GRU

That's about as direct as you can get without doing NRT-GRU nonstop


User currently offlineNeo From Brazil, joined Jan 2001, 672 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 19612 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 9):
Documents are due today. I believe Delta actually did apply from the pool of fourteen. Those five DTW-GRU flights come from the fourteen, conditioned on GRU opening up.

But weren't these 14 new frequencies already excluding GRU?? So basically DL is saying.. hey DOT pls change 2 of our current GRU frequencies from LAX to DTW.. and we would like to reserve 5 new frequencies to GRU.. when it becomes liberated.

Lol.... in the end DL didn't ask for any of the new frequencies and is already trying to be the first in line for future GRU frequencies. hahaha....

Rgs,

Neo


User currently offlinesimairlinenet From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 917 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 19528 times:

Quoting ssides (Reply 3):
Is DL trying to capture Brazil-bound traffic from Asia via its DTW hub? To me, this seems like the only logical justification for this route.

The downside is the six-or-more-hour transfers in either direction vs. quick transfers via LAX.


User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4014 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 19530 times:

Quoting ssides (Reply 3):
Is DL trying to capture Brazil-bound traffic from Asia via its DTW hub? To me, this seems like the only logical justification for this route.

The schedule itself - with an early departure out of DTW and an arrival into DTW as late as possible, indicates they are counting on Asia to make the flight work. The drawback is that the sit time at GRU is going to be very long indeed, but it seems DL picked the best choice. For sure, after ATL-GRU and ATL-GIG, this is the route with best potential for them in Brazil.

As this is an application to move LAX-GRU to DTW-GRU, I wonder if any other airline will object.



Stop pop up ads
User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 19483 times:

Quoting Neo (Reply 12):
and we would like to reserve 5 new frequencies to GRU.. when it becomes liberated.
Quoting Neo (Reply 12):
But weren't these 14 new frequencies already excluding GRU??

These frequencies do not exclude GRU. They just are subject to GRU's expansion. Once the Brazilian government says that GRU is no longer restricted, those frequencies will enable the carriers that hold them to fly to GRU. So, what DL is proposing is to have them allocated to DTW-GRU for future use, but to allow other carriers to use them on an interim basis.


User currently offlinerealsim From Spain, joined Apr 2010, 645 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 19482 times:

Just one question:

If AA is awarded their 11 requested frequencies, and 3 remain avalaible, would these 3 become GRU avalaible and then awared to DL? I think that would be pretty unfair...


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 19468 times:

The schedule:

Effective November 4th, 2010:

DL205 763 DTW 1745 GRU 0715+1
DL204 763 GRU 2330 DTW 0715+1


User currently offlineNeo From Brazil, joined Jan 2001, 672 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 19458 times:

Quoting simairlinenet (Reply 13):
The downside is the six-or-more-hour transfers in either direction vs. quick transfers via LAX.
Quoting incitatus (Reply 14):
The schedule itself - with an early departure out of DTW and an arrival into DTW as late as possible, indicates they are counting on Asia to make the flight work. The drawback is that the sit time at GRU is going to be very long indeed, but it seems DL picked the best choice. For sure, after ATL-GRU and ATL-GIG, this is the route with best potential for them in Brazil.

As this is an application to move LAX-GRU to DTW-GRU, I wonder if any other airline will object.

What is the proposed schedule for DTW-GRU 2 weekly service? Can anyone post it?

Thanks.

Neo


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 19458 times:

Quoting realsim (Reply 16):
would these 3 become GRU avalaible and then awared to DL? I think that would be pretty unfair...

No, these frequencies are GRU-restricted until the Brazilian government says otherwise.


User currently offlineC010T3 From Brazil, joined Jul 2006, 3704 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 19432 times:



Quoting Neo (Reply 18):
What is the proposed schedule for DTW-GRU 2 weekly service? Can anyone post it?
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 17):
The schedule:

Effective November 4th, 2010:

DL205 763 DTW 1745 GRU 0715+1
DL204 763 GRU 2330 DTW 0715+1

I already did.

[Edited 2010-04-08 14:55:28]

User currently offlineNeo From Brazil, joined Jan 2001, 672 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 19339 times:

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 15):
These frequencies do not exclude GRU. They just are subject to GRU's expansion. Once the Brazilian government says that GRU is no longer restricted, those frequencies will enable the carriers that hold them to fly to GRU. So, what DL is proposing is to have them allocated to DTW-GRU for future use, but to allow other carriers to use them on an interim basis.

Oooh ok, it makes sence now. Thanks for clearing that out. Yeah, crazy but very opportune move by DL, assuming they really intend to route their Asia traffic through DTW.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 20):
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 17):
What is the proposed schedule for DTW-GRU 2 weekly service? Can anyone post it?
Quoting C010T3 (Reply 17):
The schedule:

Effective November 4th, 2010:

DL205 763 DTW 1745 GRU 0715+1
DL204 763 GRU 2330 DTW 0715+1

I already did

Yeap, i just saw it.. thanks again!

Rgs,

Neo


User currently offlinemah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32785 posts, RR: 72
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18975 times:

I'm curious to see if AA applies for Delta's LAX-GRU frequencies in order to fly LAX-GRU itself.

This would be similar to what AA did when it applied for Delta's JFK-BOG frequencies in order to fly JFK-BOG.

While I don't think LAX-GRU would be a star performer for AA at all, it could have strong future benefit as AA/JL develop LAX-Japan in the future and it provides an opportunity for AA to grab more un-restricted frequencies.

That being said, under such a scenario, Delta is in the driver's seat and can then apply with DOT to say "never mind, we will use them on LAX-GRU" or it will become a new route case of DL/DTW-GRU vs. AA/LAX-GRU, and DTW-GRU certainly has its merits and could certainly beat AA/LAX-GRU.

I don't expect AA to do it, but who knows, I never expected AA to apply for JFK-BOG, either.



a.
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined exactly 9 years ago today! , 9426 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18859 times:

Quoting Neo (Reply 8):
I hope ATL-VCP is there.....

The Manger for Brazil at Delta said they would be asking for ATL-VCP which is why I don't think they are done

Quoting Neo (Reply 12):
But weren't these 14 new frequencies already excluding GRU?? So basically DL is saying.. hey DOT pls change 2 of our current GRU frequencies from LAX to DTW.. and we would like to reserve 5 new frequencies to GRU.. when it becomes liberated.

or if you don't let us do the slot swap then give us 5x weekly ATL-GIG so we can then move 5 of the 7 we are using to GIG now to DTW-GRU.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 22):
I'm curious to see if AA applies for Delta's LAX-GRU frequencies in order to fly LAX-GRU itself.

2 weekly flights?

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 22):
While I don't think LAX-GRU would be a star performer for AA at all, it could have strong future benefit as AA/JL develop LAX-Japan in the future and it provides an opportunity for AA to grab more un-restricted frequencies.

Which was Delta's whole idea with LAX-GRU.......

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 22):
it will become a new route case of DL/DTW-GRU vs. AA/LAX-GRU, and DTW-GRU certainly has its merits and could certainly beat AA/LAX-GRU.

I hope so, If Delta could make that one work AA wont be able to.



yep.
User currently offlineFutureUScapt From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 765 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 18791 times:

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 22):
That being said, under such a scenario, Delta is in the driver's seat and can then apply with DOT to say "never mind, we will use them on LAX-GRU" or it will become a new route case of DL/DTW-GRU vs. AA/LAX-GRU, and DTW-GRU certainly has its merits and could certainly beat AA/LAX-GRU.

I don't expect AA to do it, but who knows, I never expected AA to apply for JFK-BOG, either.

Well they might as well try - either they will (a) succeed in stealing the 2 frequencies (unlikely, IMO) or (b) effectively "force" DL to continue operating what is clearly an unprofitable route.


25 deltal1011man : Something Delta also says is they are up for the DOT giving them the frequencies but leting other carriers use them till GRU gets mor space. (ie. Del
26 mah4546 : Applications were due today. Delta came out with a statement not long after that saying it was false that Delta was applying for VCP. No, three, taki
27 Post contains images crAAzy : After the JL crap, applying for these frequencies is the least AA can do.
28 C010T3 : That's not happening until 2014.
29 Post contains images Transpac787 : ORD-EZE didn't seem to work out too well for AA, lasting only about 8 months. What are the chances of a DTW-GRU flight being sustainable over the long
30 Cubsrule : I don't know that AA's ORD-EZE experience is representative, especially since UA was reportedly quite satisfied with their ORD-EZE performance (they
31 Post contains images deltal1011man : using this as an example.... whatever you say, seems like AA can do better than DL at anything, Delta start ATL-MCN......well AA could do it better.
32 LipeGIG : I still do not buy the idea that DTW-GRU could work for 3x weekly, what to say about a daily flight. Many use to mention about Asia, but who want to f
33 Cubsrule : Of course LAX has more local traffic. DTW will not survive on local traffic (just like CLT-GIG and ATL-GRU do not). It will survive on a similar mix
34 klkla : On the surface Delta's application sounds stupid because it has very little chance of being accepted but on the other hand if you don't at least try f
35 mah4546 : Maybe actually read what I write first. I clearly stated that AA would likely not profit on LAX-GRU. But given the long-term potential to develop it
36 PSU.DTW.SCE : GM, Ford, plus almost every supplier has a significant presence in GRU. Not to mention the traffic from Asia. This would be another huge success if D
37 DTWLAX : I doubt how many Asian passengers will go for it. Connecting through the USA is a pain, having to clear customs and immigration. People do not want t
38 LipeGIG : Yes, that's the big question, plus the fact that west coast will fly quicker thru IAH, ATL, MIA, DFW than DTW (with the exception, may be, of SEA). T
39 United960 : Why would DL add the DTW-GRU market rather than just beef up ATL? I just read in another thread that they have two 744s going to VCV for temporary sto
40 Transpac787 : Actually, NRT-DTW-GRU is shorter than NRT-ATL-GRU. Regardless, the difference is only 12 miles so I don't think too many people are going to get bent
41 LipeGIG : You and some others keep thinking that there's such a huge need of Asia connections from Sao Paulo or Brazil. DTW holds more Asia than ATL but far le
42 Transpac787 : Then surely those from FRA, MUC, DXB, or CDG will connect in JFK or ATL while those from NRT, NGO, HKG, ICN, or PVG will connect in DTW....
43 mah4546 : More Brazil-Japan/Korea/China traffic flows through the United States than any other point. The market is significant.
44 United960 : Yeah from a network perspective, this makes total sense. But what I am wondering is what the flight really has to offer in competitive terms. In othe
45 LipeGIG : You don't understood my comment. AF manages more Asia flights from CDG, LH offers more from MUC/FRA, EK from DXB... not that people need to connect t
46 LipeGIG : I see KE reports, i wouldn't say significant.
47 Post contains images Transpac787 : Ahh, so we should all just give up, pack up, and go home. DL is not a political organization, they are not trying to be all things to all people. Obv
48 OA412 : Well and beyond that, KE is but one airline. You can't really make any meaningful deductions regarding the size of the Brazil-China/Korea/Japan marke
49 mah4546 : KE and JL don't carry the majority of the traffic. AA, DL, UA and CO all do a fair amount of Brazil-Asia traffic, especially to Japan. Furthermore, a
50 Post contains images laca773 : If DL thinks it's going to get up to the levels AA has to Brazil, they need to move on and keep what works. Mark, we know AA is larger and does bette
51 mah4546 : No, it is actually larger now than ever before and outside of a period between 2001 and 2004, has continued to grow. What we have seen, however, is v
52 hardiwv : I have no doubt this route has the biggest potential among DL/NW network. DTW-GRU in itself is a strong route, plus if you count the transpacific con
53 deltal1011man : Oh didn't they had a set date for it. Bull. Unless you want to say AA will never be what DL is in NYC.............didn't think so. Oh, and that doesn
54 DFWEagle : I don’t think connections are as relevent as AA’s superior ability to capture the O/D in the market. The fact that AA is larger in both LAX and G
55 Jetlanta : Yet they do it every day. NRT has historically been the top connecting market in terms of revenue for DL's ATL-GRU service. You continue to put way t
56 C010T3 : What do you mean?
57 LipeGIG : They are trying hard to find a viable route, that's the point. Lets see how DOT will react to their request. Because AA holds a very good portion of
58 mah4546 : You are getting awfully defensive. It would be nice if you would engage an an actual debate, instead of immature rambling. American Airlines has a fa
59 deltal1011man : you know as well as i LAX-GRU is very low yielding and having 2x weekly flights would do nothing but burn money. Not really, but the game you have be
60 mah4546 : AA running 3-4x weekly on LAX-GRU would initially not make money. I never argued otherwise. I said AA has long-term viability on the route, not that
61 cslusarc : If LAX - GRU is low yielding, couldn't it work for a charter airline like G4 with a very high density seating configuration?
62 incitatus : Similar service is already in the market - Copa offering LAX-GRU via PTY on those comfy 737s with very affordable pricing.
63 LipeGIG : And CM offers LAX-GIG, LAX-CNF and LAX-MAO thru PTY.
64 deltal1011man : Ok and yet again, What does AA have that Delta doesn't? but AA would make it work because of Japan.......Man you pick sides like this one DL lover I
65 mah4546 : Stronger local presence in Los Angeles and Sao Paulo. I'm not repeating myself again. You are arguing for the sake of arguing. Enough is enough alrea
66 Post contains images Transpac787 : Ah, so "as far as you know", people use those carriers?? Now that's evidence you can take to court!! And because AA holds a good portion of the Japan
67 crAAzy : OK while I'm clearly and AA supporter here I was just wondering how much the KE flight played into DL's success out of LAX. I'm wondering if one of th
68 mah4546 : Nobody sane is going to fly Brazil-Australia via Los Angeles. There is plenty of service between South America and Australia/New Zealand, including o
69 LAXdude1023 : I hate to play devils advocate, but I dont think AA could make LAX-GRU work. I dont buy the alliance feed either because you get that in NYC. In my o
70 Post contains images commavia : I think the optimal solution would be a well-timed flight by a restructured and strengthened JAL 773, 3 times per week, continuing to and from NRT.
71 mah4546 : It would certainly not work if it were just feeding Tokyo. If it were to feed Nagoya and Osaka as well, I think it could work. Nagoya is actually the
72 incitatus : I don't know if that is the case currently because the Brazilian immigrant community around NGO pretty much evaporated. Lots of businesses in NGO cat
73 LipeGIG : DL already covers Japan with MAO, GIG and GRU. In my view DL would do better with 9 or 10x weekly ATL-GRU with large equipment the days they offer ju
74 Post contains links Transpac787 : *sigh* http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=870 How curious. You've been saying exactly the opposite. See below: So now that we've proven DL
75 mah4546 : AA does carry the most passengers, even more than JAL, between SAO and TYO. It's ability to connect outside of TYO is, obviously, weak. However, given
76 LipeGIG : As mentioned by Mark, AA is the leader on Brazil-US market. They are one of the two airlines flying to the main destinations Brazilians fly : Miami a
77 Jetlanta : Delta competes all around the world with that airplane. The negative attributes you associate with the aircraft are real, however they are simply NOT
78 LipeGIG : I agree with your view. But the best performances seems to come from markets where the 76L does not face competition, with of course some exceptions.
79 Post contains images Jetlanta : The 76L performs best on markets that is the right size for. The reason that 76L's are on so many markets where there is little competition is becaus
80 incitatus : Great points.
81 worldtraveler : that is not correct. DL carries 50% more passengers between NRT and SAO than AA and gets more than 80% more revenue. DL's average fares are substanti
82 OA412 : Agreed. Let's also keep in mind the fact that both JFK is the most direct route between NRT and GRU and is only 1 mile off the great circle route. In
83 mah4546 : We don't know a hypothetical best solution until we see who flies LAX-NGO/KIX. The best solution is the carrier that can offer online connections bet
84 C010T3 : It's actually YYZ, but the difference is really marginal... There are discrepancies between the old and the new GCM. If you use Google Earth, you can
85 incitatus : In half an hour an airplane will cover almost 300 miles at cruise speed. In this case of Japan-Brazil the "better" located point is pretty much as go
86 C010T3 : I fully agree. I was just talking about the distance itself...
87 OA412 : I was actually talking about US points, but I wasn't specific. Still, it's interesting to know that YYZ is the most direct route.
88 Post contains images incitatus : In my map the shortest route is through IAD. YYZ is just for the Canadian version of geography.
89 C010T3 : That's when you depart from CGH, not GRU.
90 worldtraveler : You need only look at on-time stats for DTW vs other east coast hubs and see that the advantage in the market lies with the fastest flight time, not n
91 C010T3 : Well, there is nothing stopping AA from launching ORD-GRU.
92 Neo : Delta and GOL have requested Brazilian and American governments to initiate code-share operation between them. This is a very important development fo
93 Post contains links Jetlanta : Gol's press release in English: http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GOL-an...le-prnews-3753080485.html?x=0&.v=1
94 deltal1011man : right, because AMR is just that good remind me.....how much money was made last year? oh wait......thought so. And you said AA would do it because of
95 klkla : Whoo Hoo! Good for me, at least. I was worried that Delta would not be able to get a partner in Brazil. Interesting that GOL isn't staying exclusivel
96 Post contains links mah4546 : Why do I need to explain myself multiple times to you? The market will work if it feeds into multiple online, one-stop Japan connections - NGO, NRT,
97 deltal1011man : FAT,PSP,SAN,SJC,LAS,RNO all had a Delta code(as Delta codeshares, for now, with MQ, RNO on AS and they fly LAX-LAS 6x daily) AUS/DEN would be better
98 worldtraveler : The simple fact is that AA not only did not apply for LAX-GRU as MAH expected but they did not object to DL's transfer of the frequencies to DTW. AA
99 Post contains images deltal1011man : yea DTW is likely a better place to try it, small local market but no AA and CO and B6 to kick there butts (read JFK)
100 MaverickM11 : I don't know why everyone focuses on GRUJapan so much. It's a shrinking market, that is already more than adequately covered by US carriers even thou
101 klkla : Doesn't AA have unrestricted frequencies that they only use seasonally now? AA could start LAX-GRU, ORD-GRU or ANYPLACE-GRU at anytime with creative u
102 worldtraveler : except that DOT data shows that, somehow, DL manages to get 80% higher average fares than AA on the same Japan to Brazil traffic - and DL is the larg
103 mah4546 : Wrong. I clearly stated that I did not expect AA to do anything such. AA has filed with DOT to have Delta's application for 5w DTW-GRU dimissed. Clea
104 MaverickM11 : Do you think that really even passes the smell test? You actually think any carrier is getting almost DOUBLE the fare of another major player in the
105 OA412 : I'm not focusing on GRU-Japan. I'm simply making the argument that if AA wants to connect passengers between Brazil and Japan, why bother even going
106 worldtraveler : Yet, AA DIDN'T object to the 2 frequency transfers which ARE available now. Given that there is no mechanism to "reserve" slots for future use, AA is
107 MaverickM11 : You honestly think DL gets almost double the average fare on GRUNRT that AA does? Why don't you try that again. No idea, but if the magnitude was sim
108 OA412 : As I recall, the data posted suggested that DL was receiving an average fare in the $500 (or high $400) range for JFK-MXP while AA was receiving aver
109 mah4546 : I forget the quarter, but yes, in one quarter AA's average local JFK-MXP fare was around $980 while Delta's was around $550.
110 LAXdude1023 : Why would AA object to that?
111 mah4546 : Same reason it objected to, and successfully blocked, Delta's transfer of JFKBOG frequncies to ATLBOG: it could potentially lock Delta into the marke
112 bobnwa : Is there a legible thought or question in this startement somewhere?
113 Post contains links C010T3 : Delta was granted the exemption for DTW-GRU by the DOT, so essencially, Delta is now able to transfer the two LAX-GRU frequencies to DTW-GRU. Link to
114 C010T3 : DELTA DID IT AGAIN!!! Delta proposed to reliquish 4 of its 10 restricted frequencies to American, so that both requests are no longer mutually exclusi
115 MaverickM11 : So what happens if they're able to transfer LAXGRU, but not shuffle the additional DTWGRU frequencies?
116 mah4546 : It is actually quite clever, since Delta says it will use the frequencies to "fund" its existing Northeast services until they can be used to GRU. Ho
117 C010T3 : It really is and will most certainly aggravate American. In summary: 4 Delta's current restricted frequencies are transferred to American for MIA-BSB
118 LAXdude1023 : I must be more dense than the average poster. Why will it aggravate AA if they get everything they wanted anyway? Is it because they are offering res
119 mah4546 : The argument AA will make is to show how poorly DL uses the ATL-BSB/MAO/FOR frequencies as is, sometimes using as few as five of them at a time. Thou
120 C010T3 : Because if this proposal goes through, they will have less long-term flexibility then they would if they received unrestricted frequencies.For exampl
121 mah4546 : You answered your own question. AA rather have the non-restrictive ones, of course. In the last proceeding, AA applied for unrestricted frequencies t
122 cpqi : Frankly I think Delta are bang on the money with these new routings. They were the only American airline to have the foresight to fly from the US to F
123 C010T3 : I don't understand why you are congratulating them, when what they just proposed will cause them to abandon either FOR, MAO or BSB before the World C
124 worldtraveler : because there are restricted frequencies that can serve every one of the routes AA wants to fly, just as it was with CNF. There are not unrestricted
125 mah4546 : What foresight? Its services to the Northeast perform horribly. Recife was dropped; capacity to Manaus cut significantly; and FOR often operates only
126 MaverickM11 : Made it clear by not flying and/or dropping markets? How does that strategy work? The second biggest carrier to Latin America has little presence in
127 Frostbite : You could have said just the same of about any of DL's CentAm/SouthAm markets at some point in the past. CCS....GIG....SCL....SAL....PTY....all were
128 cpqi : Thank you Frostbite for saving me from the wolves. Indeed foresight in business does require a longer term view. ATL FOR started its routing at the b
129 worldtraveler : yet, you and others continue to believe that flying markets that are a VERY long ways from being profitable is an acceptable use of corporate resourc
130 mah4546 : No, I wouldn't. You said it yourself: the Northeast markets are much, much smaller than those. All routes are dogs in the first year, but those marke
131 MaverickM11 : And dropping two of the routes completely, and more seasonally depending on which way the wind blows. Great strategy. In any case, any growth of the
132 mah4546 : There's a strong VFR component from Broward. It's where most Broward's Brazilians come from, while those in Miami tend to come from Rio and Belo Hori
133 cpqi : I have been informed here in Brazil by a senior government official that there is a reciprocal arrangement in that if a route is given to a foreign ai
134 mah4546 : The Brazilian airlines have plenty of ability to expand. For every frequency a U.S. carrier has, a Brazilian carrier has, but it is not tied to secon
135 Neo : What??????????? Honestly where did u get that????
136 MaverickM11 : I don't think it's big enough to sustain much of a nonstop, and all the double-ticketing people thought would come out of the woodwork, hasn't.
137 mah4546 : Historically South Florida has maintained non-stop service to Fortaleza 1-2x a week on Varig 767s. I guess we'll just see. I'm willing to bet Delta i
138 Neo : Seems DL's is always a step ahead of AA when it comes to DOT request maneuvers.. at least we have to acknowledge that!!! Rgs, Neo
139 C010T3 : Well, if AA had applied for daily JFK-GIG and daily DFW-GIG, that wouldn't have happened...
140 incitatus : The last time I was on MAO-MIA the vast majority of bags on the carrousel seemed to have come from FOR - single ticketing. I am going to guess double
141 C010T3 : That's because you flew TAM. TAM-TAM double ticketing is really not big at all.
142 worldtraveler : And if AA can face its shareholders and explain why they are carrying passengers who bring them two-thirds of what they bring on comparable distance
143 LipeGIG : Now is very clear to me that DL is not looking to more Brazilian services to secondary markets but rahter, will focus all they can in Sao Paulo. Funny
144 mah4546 : You have zero idea of how the flights are doing, as much as you would like to convince yourself and others otherwise. While AA continues to grow and
145 incitatus : This is not AA vs DL. It is ATL vs MIA. The carrier that has the MIA hub would take it all, no matter what the two letters are.
146 worldtraveler : Felipe, willl all due respect, the goal of airlines is not to build loyalty or put dots and lines on a map if they can't make money. AA is apparently
147 mah4546 : I'm not really sure why you think it is over. It's not. If AA chooses to apply for more, it can. Nothing has been awarded. It's a nice spin, but it w
148 Post contains images MaverickM11 : What exactly is DL doing then in REC/FOR/MAO/BSB, because it's not building loyalty, or profits, but it certainly makes a lot of dots? I don't know w
149 C010T3 : No, G3 and JJ were technologically isolated from foreign airlines in many levels. It's only now that JJ is becoming solidly integrated in universal p
150 mah4546 : But they didn't. It wasn't even until about a year ago that Gol started interlining with international carriers.
151 MaverickM11 : G3 interlining has been more recent, but not JJ, which has been able to route you beyond their Brazil points with US service on JJ metal or a combina
152 C010T3 : No, up until the second semester of 2008, JJ only offered very limited low class fares for these connections. It was only around the time that the LH
153 CompensateMe : And what amazes me is that although there's no indication AA's pursing ORD-GRU at this time, several a.net posters are insinuating this route's a rea
154 MaverickM11 : Seriously? You've been able to price on kayak/pricline/etc very competitive JJ interline routings for a while now, at least a couple years, no?
155 SESGDL : It's almost comical that you are claiming he has zero idea how flights are doing and then insist that AA is succeeding. Succeeding in achieving profi
156 mah4546 : Nothing comical about it. CNF was a rocket out the gate and SSA/REC started slow, but after a year are exceeding AA's initial annual projections and
157 commavia : Well, while not specific to the northeast Brazil markets, AA overall as recently as 3Q09 (the most recent data I have) was generating passenger yield
158 SESGDL : All of that may be true but you've not taken into account DL's considerably lower costs, as well as differences in how each carrier allocates costs d
159 Post contains links C010T3 : Unfortunately, yes. Check this out: http://www.breakingtravelnews.com/ne...distribution-agreement-with-sabre/ Yes, since 2008.
160 commavia : Well yes, AA's costs are higher than Delta's. That's what happens in bankruptcy. Nonetheless, AA attracts a substantial (minimum of 9.5%) revenue pre
161 mah4546 : Keep in mind that while AA's overall labor costs are higher, AA has a substantial number of Latin America-based flight attendants - bases in BOG, EZE
162 commavia : Plus, again, on the question of cost and profit/loss: AA's operating profit per ASM in Latin America in 3Q09 was $0.42, while Delta lost an average o
163 jetlanta : Comm, you know damn well that those are not apple-to-apple numbers. Carriers all prorate and report their revenue and expenses differently. I don't k
164 commavia : On an operating basis, it's not profitable overall, and I never said it was. We all know AA lost money, so how could it be? AA in 3Q09 made an operat
165 jetlanta : But it is a NETWORK business. The Latin markets could not be supported without the domestic feed. How AA prorates revenues and expenses across those
166 LipeGIG : WT, in my view is just a case where AA seems to know how to obtain a profit and has been able to wait longer than DL. You and all of us know that Del
167 worldtraveler : Actually, thanks to the amount of data that is available, yes, I do and so do execs at AA and DL....the airline industry exchanges a huge amount of d
168 Post contains links B377 : Seems US is opposing DL's application. However, requests it be reopened if DL's view that these frequencies could be used in the future for GRU is sus
169 worldtraveler : I'm not sure what DL really thought they would gain by filing the "advance request" for future GRU frequencies but I don't think anyone realistically
170 LipeGIG : And for sure US would not be the only one. Well, DL is becoming specialized in requests to structure frequencies. It's the second time now. The fact
171 mah4546 : Very unlikely. DOT refuses to consider anything but the applied for routes. AA's MIA-BSB and JFK-GIG would have likely gotten priority, and DL would
172 LipeGIG : Mark, my mistake, i completely forgot that AA applied for 11 and not 9. Thanks for the remark, which i fully agree.
173 worldtraveler : gven that DL applied for ATL-GIG last year w/ the hope they could undoubtdly free up the unrestricted frequencies and lost to CO and US, I'm sure the
174 Post contains links and images Commavia : No they don't. What they confirm is that AA is losing money. They don't confirm that AA is losing money to Latin America, specifically. Indeed, AA's
175 worldtraveler : yes, it does confirm that AA is losing money... lots of it... and money losing airlines don't continue to develop new routes. problem is that the sam
176 Commavia : Really? I guess Delta circa 2006-2008 didn't get the memo, since they seemed to grow quite a bit and develop lots of new markets while they were losi
177 worldtraveler : and you know full well that DL added so much int'l capacity because they were moving int'l capable aircraft to int'l routes while reducing domestic c
178 MaverickM11 : Over the last 3 years DL/NW have added about 70 international markets. They've canceled about 65 as well.
179 Post contains links and images incitatus : Commavia - your wheels have been spinning in the same mud for a while Here is a flashback to two years ago: US-Brazil Reach Expanded Air Service Agre
180 Rafabozzolla : With JL leaving JFK-GRU, would that free up any slots at GRU for American carriers? I know the authority is for JL, but would slots be available for A
181 worldtraveler : No. Japanese carrier slots are for Japanese carriers and are separate from US carriers. DL already has the largest slot portfolio among foreign carrie
182 B377 : Why do you constantly post of Delta's greatness... Well could you at least keep the discussion to the topic. This one is about Brazil not Japan
183 Post contains images worldtraveler : because DTW-GRU is being clearly started in order to link DL's Japan and Brazil route systems and because DL's entry into DTW-GRU is coming within wee
184 Commavia : I actually did respond, although I'm not surprised that you ignored it. As I said - AA is larger to Latin America than the #2 and #3 carriers combine
185 worldtraveler : actually, it depends on how you define Latin America... if the Caribbean is included, yes. If the definition is pure Latin America, then DL and CO co
186 cws818 : So, you don't know whether AA is making money in Latin America or not. This stands to reason, particularly since Kiev is a city and Brazil is a count
187 LAXintl : Don't over estimate the flow this might generate. Japan-Brazil traffic via the US has steadily declined, and there are already existing options on De
188 worldtraveler : which is why I broadened the analogy to include Eastern Europe, a market REGION which DL has grown in and is by far the "dominant" airline (can we us
189 incitatus : Should DTW-GRU do as well as UA's ORD-GRU, or worse, or better - assuming it is daily?
190 LipeGIG : Easier to see AA getting the feed from JL than any other else, and in this regard, JFK-GIG helps more by allowing AA to offer more space on JFK-GRU In
191 worldtraveler : CLT doesn't have GRU service, Lipe. DFW and IAH don't compete with east coast gateways, either. As I said previously, the majority of UA's traffic co
192 incitatus : Air Canada tends to be the price leader for Canada-Brazil. While Canada traffic may help fill DTW-GRU, by no means it will enhance its average fare.
193 worldtraveler : but that doesn't stop any US carrier from matching their fares... and when starting a new route, the object is more about "butts in seats" than gener
194 worldtraveler : DL's DTW-GRU service has been loaded As per 01MAY10 GDS timetable display, DELTA from 21OCT10 launches 2 weekly Detroit – Sao Paulo service with Boe
195 Post contains links DAL767400ER : Official PR: http://news.delta.com/index.php?s=43&item=1015
196 Post contains links PSU.DTW.SCE : Approved, and as mentioned above, available for sale, flights start on October 21st. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Delta-...es-prnews-1997806023.html?
197 n7371f : Tickets are for sale now... Let's have a little fun at Delta's expense...how many times do you think Delta will change the schedule (days, times, etc.
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