stl1326 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 494 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8314 times:
It looks like AA will end service to BOS on July 1 as the carrier continues to pull flights from STL. I guess the competition from Southwest was the major factor in ending the flights. It is hard to compete against a 737 versus a regional jet. I assume it won't be too long before we just have flights to AA hubs in the near future.
jfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2706 posts, RR: 5 Reply 1, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8317 times:
I'm still surprised B6 hasn't entered the STL market yet from BOS or JFK
FWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3223 posts, RR: 1 Reply 2, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8150 times:
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 1):
I'm still surprised B6 hasn't entered the STL market yet from BOS or JFK
Don't bet on it given the B6/AA codeshAAre. Despite Arpey's comments, I feel that AA will buy B6 before B6 enters STL.
surfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2618 posts, RR: 31 Reply 3, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8135 times:
Quoting stl1326 (Thread starter): It looks like AA will end service to BOS on July 1 as the carrier continues to pull flights from STL
There isn't much left to pull! I certainly would have thought SEA would be the next to go - there must be some valuable corporate contract or specific crew clause keeping that one going. Also wouldn't be surprised to see DCA downgraded to Eagle flights, but like the former hubs at BNA and RDU, I'm sure the flights to LGA and DCA will remain. Looks like AA will keep LAX-STL around too, since LAX is now an important "cornerstone". I'm actually quite surprised DL is flying LAX-RDU instead of AA.
Quoting stl1326 (Thread starter): I guess the competition from Southwest was the major factor in ending the flights. It is hard to compete against a 737 versus a regional jet.
And yet UA does this to virtually every market it flies to directly against WN from LAX!
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 1): I'm still surprised B6 hasn't entered the STL market yet from BOS or JFK
You are? B6 failed to make CMH and BNA work, and ORD and PIT are barely hanging on to the flights they have. B6 is a hit on the East and West Coasts, but they just don't seem to be able to make inroads into the Midwest. Looks like they prefer to interline with AA out of JFK rather than serve the smaller markets like CMH, DTW, IND, CVG, ORF, and yes, STL, themselves.
Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10225 posts, RR: 62 Reply 4, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8134 times:
With Southwest in the market, it was only a matter of time.
FWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3223 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8121 times:
Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 3): I certainly would have thought SEA would be the next to go - there must be some valuable corporate contract or specific crew clause keeping that one going
commavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 10225 posts, RR: 62 Reply 6, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8123 times:
Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 3): I certainly would have thought SEA would be the next to go - there must be some valuable corporate contract or specific crew clause keeping that one going.
Boeing.
Their defense business is big in both Puget Sound and St. Louis.
Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 3): Also wouldn't be surprised to see DCA downgraded to Eagle flights, but like the former hubs at BNA and RDU, I'm sure the flights to LGA and DCA will remain.
From what I understand, STL-DCA actually doesn't do all that bad. Back during one of the earlier pull-downs, it was reduced to primarily RJs, and if I remember correctly was returned to all-mainline in fairly short order. Not sure, though.
Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 3): Looks like AA will keep LAX-STL around too, since LAX is now an important "cornerstone".
It's a not-insignificant local market, too.
Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 3): I'm actually quite surprised DL is flying LAX-RDU instead of AA.
To my knowledge, AA has never tried LAX-RDU nonstop, even during the hub days. Even during the heady days of 1999-2001, AA didn't serve that market - the closest that got was the short-lived RDU-SJC flights that lasted for I think only a few months back around 2003. AA just doesn't feel the market is quite large enough to justify a nonstop. With their nonstops to all the hubs and key Northeast business markets, though, AA's brand still retains quite a strong franchise in the Raleigh/Durham area.
flyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 865 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 8053 times:
Quoting stl1326 (Thread starter): It looks like AA will end service to BOS on July 1 as the carrier continues to pull flights from STL. I guess the competition from Southwest was the major factor in ending the flights. It is hard to compete against a 737 versus a regional jet. I assume it won't be too long before we just have flights to AA hubs in the near future.
Isnt Eagle doing a few daily flights STL-BOS and STL-JFK?
stl1326 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 494 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7766 times:
Quoting flyby519 (Reply 7):
Isnt Eagle doing a few daily flights STL-BOS and STL-JFK?
Yes; Eagle is currently flying 2 daily flights between STL-BOS. This will end July 1st the same day Eagle will launch twice daily service from STL-JFK.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14411 posts, RR: 26 Reply 9, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7679 times:
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 1): I'm still surprised B6 hasn't entered the STL market yet from BOS or JFK
I think that B6 could make money on such a route, but I also think that they have bigger fish to fry.
Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 5): What's keeping SEA going is the Boeing contract.
There is NOT a contract between AA and Boeing. Boeing does send a fair number of people along that route, but in fact the SEA-STL flight is timed poorly for business travelers.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Airport From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 1397 posts, RR: 9 Reply 10, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7321 times:
At this point I'm pretty much expecting AA to eventually drop SEA-STL on their own metal, which AS would likely start immediately after.
If another airline wanted to try a hub at St. Louis, I'm starting to think that it's now or never. Now, while AA has shrunken to the point so much that I doubt they'd react while WN hasn't yet expanded to their full potential in filling all of the gaps, or never.
BOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1901 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 7199 times:
Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 3): You are? B6 failed to make CMH and BNA work, and ORD and PIT are barely hanging on to the flights they have.
CMH and BNA are tiny markets compared to STL. At the moment, those should definately work from Boston. Nobody is even on BOS-BNA and they only have DL to worry about on BOS-CMH. They don't need to keep following the "BOS only if JFK works well" rule, of which BWI is the sole exception.
ORD is still doing okay last I heard, and didn't they recently add a PIT flight? Those markets are on par with PIT and those routes have some competition on them. BOS-STL will only have WN on it, and there is certainly room for two.
cessna2 From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 277 posts, RR: 2 Reply 12, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7017 times:
WN didnt have a lot to do with AA pulling some many flights out of STL...They simply are fillling the gap that AA has created. As you can see most of WN's new routes from STL are old AA routes which start atleast a month after AA discontinue's it. Also RDU did have nonstop to SJC but never LAX from AA. Midway flew the RDU-SJC route which did pretty well until the high tech slump in the early 2000's and was hard to profit from after 9/11. But with traffic on the rebound I could see it sometime in the future. Yes AA is still RDU's hometown airline but that is quickly fading away as the new generation and growth of people in the area are now more familiar with WN who carries the most passengers out of RDU now.
B767300ER From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 184 posts, RR: 2 Reply 13, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 6770 times:
When STL was a TW hub it stretched from HNL/OGG to LGW/CDG and all points in between, as well as Canada to south
Florida, Mexico and the Caribbean. I remember STL in the 1990's with the many OD and connecting passengers, but
seriously did any one expect AA to continue in STL when they had to maintain their position in ORD? As far as AA
is concerned STL was doomed as a mainline hub for them. Sorry to see STL and MCI become "ghost airports" of
the 21st century.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14411 posts, RR: 26 Reply 14, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 6653 times:
Quoting Airport (Reply 10): At this point I'm pretty much expecting AA to eventually drop SEA-STL on their own metal, which AS would likely start immediately after.
I'm hoping that is what happens.
Quoting Airport (Reply 10): If another airline wanted to try a hub at St. Louis, I'm starting to think that it's now or never.
I think that the window is already closed, and the prospect of a hub in STL is not a particularly good one anyway. I don't foresee any hubs in STL other than what WN has now.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4746 posts, RR: 15 Reply 15, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 6119 times:
Regarding STL-SEA, as discussed on almost every STL/AA thread, someone always asks why SEA-STL continues to operate, someone always answers, "Boeing", someone then mentions that the timing is poor for the business traveler, then someone else hopes that AA will stop the route so AS can start it. (It's always the same complete progression of posts.)
So this time, I come in and mention that WN will start STL-SEA next month but is ending their service on 8/15. The assumption is that it, like some other WN routes to/from SEA, will be seasonal but we will have to wait until next spring to find out for sure.
It does seem apparent that AA is seeing business that WN does not, presumably Boeing, with or without a formal "contract" (or perhaps a subsidy?), so as long as that arrangement continues, then AA will probably stay in the market year-round. Whether WN sees enough summer-only tourist/cruise traffic to stay in the market remains to be seen.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9): but in fact the SEA-STL flight is timed poorly for business travelers
I disagree with you on this point, BMI'. It seems to me that the r/t is very well timed for the SEA-bound business traveler: depart STL about 9am, arr SEA about noon, have the afternoon and following morning for meetings, then depart SEA at 1pm with a 6-7pm arrival back home in STL. This amounts to the equivilant of about one full business day with only 1 overnight.
If they reversed the flight and had it leave SEA at 8am, the arrival in STL would be around 2pm and that seems a bit late to start doing business. So for the STL-bound business traveler, the flight is pretty much a travel day anyway. It seems to me, given the time change and all, the flights are not that badly scheduled.
flyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1638 posts, RR: 9 Reply 16, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5557 times:
Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 3): You are? B6 failed to make CMH and BNA work, and ORD and PIT are barely hanging on to the flights they have. B6 is a hit on the East and West Coasts, but they just don't seem to be able to make inroads into the Midwest. Looks like they prefer to interline with AA out of JFK rather than serve the smaller markets like CMH, DTW, IND, CVG, ORF, and yes, STL, themselves.
St. Louis is not Nashville or Columbus. Just because B6 failed in those cities does not mean it won't succeed in other midwestern makets. B6 still has much growth potential so I would say that just about anything is on the table. CMH had the Skybus hub at the time and BNA is extremely well served by WN and AA. Just because two markets have failed for B6 does not mean others in the future are doomed.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14411 posts, RR: 26 Reply 17, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 5377 times:
I am almost certain that there is no subsidy either. Boeing is in no way tied to any particular airline. The timing for STL-SEA is alright but the return is not. Often business travelers have a full day of business, meaning either a red eye or ealy morning departure is needed and they can't hang around until 1 and waste a full day traveling.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6373 posts, RR: 34 Reply 18, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5211 times:
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 16): and BNA is extremely well served by WN and AA. Just because two markets have failed for B6
does not mean others in the future are doomed.
But the presence of AA and WN at STL is quite comparable to the presence of AA and WN at BNA. AA serves its hubs, LAX, and the major northeast markets (save BOS from BNA, which was served for many years) from both BNA and STL. And WN is already in the BOS-STL market. WN has many connecting opportunities at STL, while B6 has few connections available at BOS. So why is STL more likely to be a success than BNA was?
stl1326 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 494 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5149 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 18): So why is STL more likely to be a success than BNA was?
The STL-BOS market is more than double the size of BNA-BOS. I don't know how accurate faremeasure is but it shows STL-BOS at 495 pax versus 228 on BNA-BOS route.
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4746 posts, RR: 15 Reply 20, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5140 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17): The timing for STL-SEA is alright but the return is not. Often business travelers have a full day of business, meaning either a red eye or ealy morning departure is needed and they can't hang around until 1 and waste a full day traveling
The AA service is offered as a single a/c turn (in SEA), as I know it was when they served STL-SAN, STL-SFO, and STL-LAS -- with almost identical schedules. (Of course last summer AA flew 2x daily STL-SEA, inc a RON with the early SEA departure. With the STL hub gone, there is no where near the traffic to support 2 AA r/t - even in the summer.)
With only 1 flight in the market, I seriously doubt AA would consider a red-eye e/b -- that would be the end of the route, Boeing or no-Boeing. If they wanted to get a bit more involved in the scheduling, they could integrate the STL-SEA flight with some other turn and then fly SEA-STL in the morning but my feeling on this, especially if, as you say, there is no contract or subsidy, is that AA is barely keeping the route alive, with a single r/t, and therefore keeping it "separate" from anything else. That way, if they decide to kill it, it will be very simple to cut STL-SEA-- turn --SEA-STL.
bond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5098 posts, RR: 8 Reply 21, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5039 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 17): The timing for STL-SEA is alright but the return is not. Often business travelers have a full day of business, meaning either a red eye or ealy morning departure is needed and they can't hang around until 1 and waste a full day traveling.
Well, evidently the timing is fine since I assume most of those pax are on business.
Most folks flying that distance aren't going for a 2hr meeting and wanting to come back same day anyway. The guys that do need to get to SEA for a quick meeting and return to STL ASAP aren't flying commercial airlines... that's why Boeing has a corporate fleet.
Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14411 posts, RR: 26 Reply 22, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 5029 times:
flyguy89 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1638 posts, RR: 9 Reply 23, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4993 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 18): WN has many connecting opportunities at STL, while B6 has few connections available at BOS. So why is STL more likely to be a success than BNA was?
As stated above, St. Louis is almost double the market size of Nashville and there's still a lot more potential capacity to be backfilled. Now I'm not saying that B6 will specifically enter the STL-BOS market, or even STL at all, i'm simply saying that B6 serving STL is still a real possibility despite their past history in BNA and CMH.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14411 posts, RR: 26 Reply 24, posted (3 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4946 times:
The thing is that I don't think that there is much capacity to be bcakfilled in STL. Most of the backfilling has already been done, and I think the service levels are about right for the market.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
25 Cubsrule: And how much more service did STL-BOS have in that period?
26 Flytravel: Are you referring to the metro sizes? According to Nielsen which measures the market, used for TV and advertising purposes, the difference isn't as d
27 mah4546: Television market size is an extremely poor metric to use and entirely worthless for these purposes. Some major metros are split into two television
28 Tommy767: Midway airlines flew RDU-SJC in spring 2001. Not sure if AA took this route over after they went under but I honestly don't think they did.
29 flyguy89: I was referring to metropolitan population, not Nielson ratings market size, should have used a better word than market size. As per mah4546, St. Lou
30 mah4546: AA announced RDU-SJC for an April 2002 launch, but it never started.
31 Cubsrule: If we are going to compare the two, shouldn't we add metro areas that use the airport essentially exclusively? I can't think of any of those for STL,
32 B752OS: Washington, D.C. and Baltimore are split, but Miami includes Ft. Lauderdale. But as you said, TV market is a very poor gauge. For example, Boston ran
33 mah4546: Miami is split into two television markets. Miami-Dade and most of Broward is one market; northern Broward and Palm Beach is another.
34 pvd757: Is it true that AA in BOS is down to 2 763 flights (1 each to LHR and LAX)? No 777s? Only 2 widebodies away from being a narrowbody station? Can that
35 Tommy767: I believe this is what it's come to. I wouldn't feel too bad about it though as B6 really has taken BOS by storm and I'd like to know how the cost st
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