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Massive WN Expansion In DEN?  
User currently offlineAA777LVR From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 216 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12329 times:

Hi A-netters,

OK. I have been hearing from some of the soon-to-be F9 "Ex pats" (not moving to IND) that WN is plotting a massive expansion of it's DEN operation. As the rumor goes, there will be a major hiring initiiative for the WN operation in DEN. Nothing has been announced, just info via the grapevine. Is there any truth to the rumor? Is UA vacating it's DEN hub anytime soon?

-AA777LVR

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineF9Widebody From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1604 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12225 times:

  

Quoting AA777LVR (Thread starter):
OK. I have been hearing from some of the soon-to-be F9 "Ex pats" (not moving to IND) that WN is plotting a massive expansion of it's DEN operation. As the rumor goes, there will be a major hiring initiiative for the WN operation in DEN. Nothing has been announced, just info via the grapevine. Is there any truth to the rumor? Is UA vacating it's DEN hub anytime soon?


UA's not leaving.



YES URLS in signature!!!
User currently offlinemcofreak From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 12152 times:

In August they will have 17 gates up from the current 12. Im sure they will be adding many flights. From what i hear they have been steadily hiring for a while in DEN.

User currently offlinesurfandsnow From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 2866 posts, RR: 30
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 11692 times:

I do think it's about time WN added service to the sole remaining Western station (BUR) that already does not have a n/s link to DEN, and the Western Texas cities too - ELP, LBB, and MAF. It probably also won't be long until WN links MKE, CLE, CMH, PIT, SDF, LIT, BHM, and ORF to DEN; and maybe RSW, ISP, ALB, BUF, PVD, MHT, PBI, and JAX as well.


Flying in the middle seat of coach is much better than not flying at all!
User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3292 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 11288 times:

Quoting mcofreak (Reply 2):
In August they will have 17 gates up from the current 12. Im sure they will be adding many flights. From what i hear they have been steadily hiring for a while in DEN.

But are they making money in DEN yet? Last I heard, the answer was still a big "no"....


User currently offlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5053 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 11233 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 4):
But are they making money in DEN yet? Last I heard, the answer was still a big "no"....

I think size matters of course. They will eventually make money in DEN, it is just a matter of time. WN was eventually move back into the DEN market, and they just need to maintain.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinesxf24 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1262 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 11155 times:

Where are the aircraft going to come from?

User currently offlinewncrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1472 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 10343 times:

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 4):
But are they making money in DEN yet? Last I heard, the answer was still a big "no"....

Are there ANY sources to support this oft touted "fact"? I'm not doubting it, it's just that I see this over and over and OVER again here on a.net but I never see a source.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlineiowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4403 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10144 times:
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FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting sxf24 (Reply 6):
Where are the aircraft going to come from?

This fall they are pulling somewhere around 60 flights from the schedule IIRC, and this occurs shortly after the time they receive more gates in DEN.



Next flights: WN DSM-LAS-PHX, US PHX-SJD. Return: US SJD-PHX, WN PHX-MDW-DSM
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23019 posts, RR: 20
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 10144 times:

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 3):
It probably also won't be long until WN links MKE, CLE, CMH, PIT, SDF, LIT, BHM, and ORF to DEN; and maybe RSW, ISP, ALB, BUF, PVD, MHT, PBI, and JAX as well.

How is it sensible for DEN to have service to more cities than PHX?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineswacle From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 376 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9878 times:

Quoting mcofreak (Reply 2):
In August they will have 17 gates up from the current 12. Im sure they will be adding many flights. From what i hear they have been steadily hiring for a while in DEN.
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 3):
It probably also won't be long until WN links MKE, CLE, CMH, PIT, SDF, LIT, BHM, and ORF to DEN; and maybe RSW, ISP, ALB, BUF, PVD, MHT, PBI, and JAX as well.

How is it sensible for DEN to have service to more cities than PHX?

Because DEN is a better East-West connection city than PHX, and, despite what you may have heard, WN does do a bit of hub and spoke here and there....

Don



Aircraft Flown: SF3 DH8 DH4 328 ERJ CRJ CR7 CR9 E70 E75 D9S M80 712 72S 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 752 318 319 32
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23019 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9676 times:

Quoting swacle (Reply 10):
Because DEN is a better East-West connection city than PHX,

I'd agree that DEN is a marginally better connecting point, though I think the difference is smaller than a lot of people assert since there aren't that many people between Denver and Phoenix - both are, by and large, connecting from states that touch the Pacific Ocean to points east of Interstate 35 and vice versa.

But what's also surely true is that DEN is a far, far worse local market. Phoenix is nearly twice the size of Denver and (still) growing more rapidly, and PHX has a much better competitive environment than DEN.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25260 posts, RR: 85
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 9136 times:
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Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
How is it sensible for DEN to have service to more cities than PHX?

Aren't they just doing what many Southwest supporters said they would do after they lost the auction for Frontier - a scorched earth policy at DEN?

Whatever the reason for it, they seem absolutely determined to be #2 in size at DEN (which some say they already are), and possibly #1.

mariner

[Edited 2010-04-12 20:40:39]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineairfrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8861 times:

Quote:
Phoenix is nearly twice the size of Denver and (still) growing more
rapidly, and PHX has a much better competitive environment than DEN.

Denver has a much higher propensity to travel, a much better airport, both in terms of customer satisfaction, and in operations. It has a larger physical catchement area. It also has three carriers hubbing there.

Key word is hub. Its a better north south hub as well as east west.


User currently offlineDeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1651 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8070 times:

Why would anyone choose WIN over F9 if given the choice? Not that F9 is all that and a bag of chips, but at least on F9 you get PTV, pre assigned seats, etc....

User currently offlineatrude777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5692 posts, RR: 52
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7398 times:

Quoting Deltaflyertoo (Reply 14):
but at least on F9 you get PTV, pre assigned seats, etc....

Gotta pay for the PTV, not exactly free.

Pre-Assigned Seat, not until day of check in, which you also do for WN.

I flew F9 twice, had a wonderful time, but I saw no difference between them and WN. I didn't use PTV, was not willing to pay for it. That even includes getting to sit in STRETCH.

Alex



Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23019 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 6116 times:

Quoting airfrnt (Reply 13):
It has a larger physical catchement area.

Let me know when you find 4 million people for whom DEN is the home airport. I'll grant you that we probably need to add in 400,000 people or so to the MSA population since Boulder is a separate MSA, but given that the population of Colorado is only 900,000 more than the population of the Phoenix MSA, you aren't going to find that.

Quoting airfrnt (Reply 13):
Denver has a much higher propensity to travel,

Source?

Quoting airfrnt (Reply 13):
It also has three carriers hubbing there.

Let's assume that DEN is a third bigger market than PHX (even though it's pretty clear that's not true). Which is better: 50% of the smaller pie or 33% of the larger one?



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineairfrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5912 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
Source?

I'll dig up the exact reference - I believe it was a DoT report, but the takeaway that is that Las Vegas had the highest propensity to travel in the nation while Denver is second.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
Which is better: 50% of the smaller pie or 33% of the larger one?

Hmm. Denver is the fifth busiest airport in the nation (PHX is ninth), and tenth in the world (PHX is 10th), fourth by movements (PHX isn't in the top 10).

Clearly the airlines pick the smaller origination market (with a higher propensity to travel), with the benefits of the best run airport in the nation (according to Time, Fortune, Business Travel magazine), recently number two in the nation is best airports in the nation, etc. Add on top of that that Southwest's big thing right now is to move as many people away from long haul transcons, towards connecting flights, and Denver's location and hubbing advantage, I think it's pretty easy to see what WN continues to build up there, and remove traffic from other parts of it's system.

I do think that WN thinks that UA is going away in DEN at some point, and want to be positioned to take over the number 1 carrier status at the market.


User currently offlineMrSkyGuy From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1214 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5856 times:

Quoting surfandsnow (Reply 3):
I do think it's about time WN added service to the sole remaining Western station (BUR) that already does not have a n/s link to DEN, and the Western Texas cities too - ELP, LBB, and MAF.

I couldn't agree more. But where would they put them? With JetBlue and USA/Mesa at the far end and SWA occupying almost the entire remainder of the terminal, where would they put them? BUR doesn't even have the ramp space to "bus-and-load" I don't believe, so what then? Bump American out? Alaska? I don't see that happening, and even if they somehow could, it wouldn't yield but a gate or two more.

SWA has long hailed the virtues of BUR, but they've also been quick to point out that the airport is badly in need of more space for growth.. and SWA has not been gun-shy about financially supporting that growth. I'll bet the NIMBYs in the area have more to do with that decision than anyone else.

Burbank is the Los Angeles area's airport of convenience.



"The strength of the turbulence is directly proportional to the temperature of your coffee." -- Gunter's 2nd Law of Air
User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 564 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5834 times:

[

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
Let's assume that DEN is a third bigger market than PHX (even though it's pretty clear that's not true). Which is better: 50% of the smaller pie or 33% of the larger one?

While I agree with you, here, DEN, is were WN wants to be and is investing their time, money, and attention. Originally I was in th camp that they were taking on UA as they opened in DEN, SFO, and IAD in short period of time. Now I am going back to conventional thinking they are going to wage war (not an understatement considering a few conversation with WN pilots and posts by various WN folks on here) on F9 and use their balance sheet accordingly.


User currently offlineJayinKitsap From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 769 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5776 times:

F9 found DEN a great hub location and built it up to near its economic limit, it seemed that it was only when F9 needed to grow away from DEN that it got indigestion.

Being in SEA when flying east, it seems that AS is the only airline with directs. Once going thru somewhere, DEN is a great point as it is less out of the way than PHX, Dallas, ATL or MSP. Even DC, NYC, and BOS don't seem bad via DEN.

The same can be said for most of the west coast going east.

I'm sure WN's computers are spinning figuring out the best routes and hubs to gain share.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23019 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5489 times:

Quoting airfrnt (Reply 17):
I believe it was a DoT report, but the takeaway that is that Las Vegas had the highest propensity to travel in the nation while Denver is second.

I was more curious about where PHX is - if PHX is number 4, that's much different than if PHX is number 20. I'm well aware that Denver has a higher propensity to travel than Phoenix, but I'm curious about your use of the word "much." Obviously, too, propensity to travel says nothing about inbound traffic.

Quoting airfrnt (Reply 17):
Hmm. Denver is the fifth busiest airport in the nation (PHX is ninth), and tenth in the world (PHX is 10th), fourth by movements (PHX isn't in the top 10).

What does that prove? ORD is busier than MDW. Should WN move its hub to ORD?

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 19):
While I agree with you, here, DEN, is were WN wants to be and is investing their time, money, and attention.

  

My argument is that it isn't a rational choice.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 564 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5401 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 21):
My argument is that it isn't a rational choice.

They must believe they can drive either UA or F9 out of DEN for it ultimately to be rational.


User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23019 posts, RR: 20
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5065 times:

Quoting PlaneAdmirer (Reply 22):
They must believe they can drive either UA or F9 out of DEN for it ultimately to be rational.

I'd agree. But at this point, does adding more flights make UA or F9's departure more likely? I'd argue no. If DEN is performing acceptable for UA today, WN adding BUR-DEN or CMH-DEN isn't going to make it perform unacceptably. DEN will cease to be a UA hub when UA liquidates or (perhaps) when UA merges with CO - though I think what happens to DEN in a UA/CO merger is an interesting and complex question. DEN will cease to be an F9 hub when RAH ends its branded flying experiment.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinePlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 564 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 1 week 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 4971 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
DEN will cease to be an F9 hub when RAH ends its branded flying experiment.

May that day never come. I like F9 too much. Besides haven't all the originals been squeezed by the majors on their contract terms over the past few years? If so what choice does RAH really have other than to go branded?


25 TOLtommy : Holly Hegeman at PlaneBusiness.com quoted WN leadership from an earnings conference call. But as I said, it was last year. They may now, but it's har
26 FWAERJ : With F9 adding 15 new cities (not sure if they're from DEN or MKE), I could see WN doing at least two of these things from Denver: -Flooding, TV, prin
27 mariner : I'm not sure that it is - or needs to be - rational. LOL. I mean, it is "rational" in the sense that Southwest wants to be King of Denver and is work
28 FlyPNS1 : If you can accelerate the blood loss to a point where the hub becomes too big of a burden for UA/F9, then maybe adding more flights makes sense. And
29 mariner : As Sun Tsu wrote in "The Art of War" - if you can't destroy the enemy you must contain the enemy. The auction should have been that - Southwest shoul
30 Cubsrule : Agreed in principle, but how will adding destinations accomplish that? I don't see it happening.
31 SJC4Me : Thinking outside the box here, could F9 just pack up and relocate their hub to MCI? They could concede DEN to WN and in the interest of self-preservat
32 Post contains images mariner : Why would they do that? They had an 84% plus load factor at DEN last month. And since Southwest is a major presence at MCI, what difference would it
33 joeljack : [ While I agree with you, here is were WN wants to be and is investing their time, money, and attent Yeah...WestPac tried this changing from COS to DE
34 SlcDeltaRUmd11 : If WN keeps expanding like crazy out of DEN the fares will generally be low especially the last munte fares will tend to be lower on more routes. WN w
35 ADent : Have you been to MCI? It is a terrible place to connect since every few gates has its own TSA. Even WN who has shoe horned its operations into one TS
36 AirframeAS : To WN, it does. To me, I could care less if my airline (F9) was #59 in DEN. All that matters to me is that we are profitable, in which case.....we cu
37 nonrevman : Don't forget the two free checked bags. Look at Denver and see what kind of a destination it is. Colorado is highly recreational. You have skiing in
38 FlyPNS1 : They had similar loadfactors when they were filing for BK. You know just as well as anyone that high loadfactor is pretty meaningless without a lot o
39 mariner : Republic has said it was a record (March) for both airlines, at DEN and at MKE. Remembering too that MKE load factors are generally a tad less than D
40 Post contains links FlyPNS1 : F9's LF in March 2008 was 84.4%. http://frontierair.tekgroupweb.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=4297 Read into it what you like.
41 mariner : Yes. And oil was at $120. I can only repeat Republic's statement that the March load factor was a record, for both airlines. mariner
42 Post contains images surfandsnow : UA isn't going anywhere. DEN is too important from a network standpoint - it is a Western gateway for UA's many loyal Great Plains pax in OMA, TUL, D
43 Cubsrule : Of course, but there aren't many potential paper cuts remaining. Here are UA's service levels from DEN to WN stations without DEN service (that WN ma
44 FL787 : Bigger as an airline, but not bigger in DEN than ever. That's fine with F9 though.
45 XT6Wagon : WN is building DEN over PHX for the simple reason that DEN is a far better "hub" for thier route network. They try to maximize the number of 1 stop f
46 mariner : You bet. When I first started following Frontier, they had 8% share at DEN - and they were profitable. mariner
47 Cubsrule : Why does it matter how far west I stop if I'm going to California? PHX is too far west to connect people to SLC, ABQ, and BOI. None of those three is
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