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Emirates & SQ Looking At South American Routes  
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8862 posts, RR: 5
Posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 9741 times:
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Both Emirates and Singapore Airlines look somewhat interested in serving the region, perhaps even Colombia. EK's DXB-GRU service launched due to the increase in trade between the Latin American and the Asian economies. And also due to the huge ethnic Arab presence in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, etc. and other nations in the region. In the past, Royal Air Maroc served both GIG and GRU, Middle East Airlines served GRU, and Iraqi Airways served Rio de Janeiro-Galeão in the past as well.

According to Colombia's Aerocivil, "Además, el presidente de la Aerocivil dijo que próximamente llegarán a Colombia firmas israelíes, y confirmó que la alemana Lufthansa regresará al país. También, afirmó que "se dan todas las condiciones para que las aerolíneas de Emiratos Árabes y Singapur comiencen a operar tras los acuerdos firmados el pasado año".

Link in Spanish: http://www.aerolatinnews.com/index.php?sector=noticias&noticia=14591

Also, Emirates has already recently expressed an interest in using Barcelona as a mini hub for its flights to several Latin countries. Río de Janeiro, Buenos Aires, Santiago de Chile, and Lima could potentially operate directly via Brazil, while flights to Bogotá and Caracas, could potentially be served via Europe, probably via Madrid and Barcelona, new destinations that the company intends to open on 1 August (Madrid). With two years of operations, Emirates has consolidated the route to São Paulo, from where the airline expects the majority of its routes to operate at, with Argentina and Chile as targets for the near future.

Emirates already has launched websites for Argentina, Chile and Perú: http://www.emirates.com/

According to elEconomista, "Emirates ha sido una de las aerolíneas que registró un mayor crecimiento mundial en los últimos años y es sabido que considera estratégico el mercado europeo ya que hace dos años, cuando inició sus vuelos desde Dubai a São Paulo (Brasil), reconoció su interés por lanzar vuelos a Latinoamérica desde Barcelona."

Link: http://www.eleconomista.es/empresas-...-Batallajuanola-por-Air-Comet.html

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineThorben From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9253 times:

I can't see SQ flying to any South American destination for at least another ten years, no EZE, no GRU, no GIG, no CCS, no SCL. What would be the benefit of connecting those cities to SIN??

User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6341 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9253 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
I can't see SQ flying to any South American destination for at least another ten years, no EZE, no GRU, no GIG, no CCS, no SCL. What would be the benefit of connecting those cities to SIN??

I don't see it with anything other than a B787/A350. Those are big cities, and could probably justify a flight to Singapore (esp. GRU obviously), but not with a 747-400 or anything nearly that large.


User currently offlinecedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 9217 times:

QR will be the first airline to fly EZE with one stop in GRU


Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offline757MDE From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 1753 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 8833 times:

I don't think any of the Colombia services will happen in the short term.
We're about to choose president and public servants begin saying all kinds of mumbo jumbo to try to win some favors or votes. We might have a bilateral with those countries, but I don't think it means anything.



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User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8422 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8715 times:
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Singapore Airlines will go to South America and when it does it probably will be to GRU or SCL depending which Ocean they go across. SQ could go to GRU as an expansion of its South African services via Durban, they serve J'berg and maybe CPT. Another possibility could be via New Zealand to Santiago or even Buenos Aires. IF SQ wanted to do somehting really pioneering it could go via Africa, say Nairobi, Kenya, and onto Sao Paulo.

User currently offlinecedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 8567 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 5):
IF SQ wanted to do somehting really pioneering it could go via Africa,

MH is the pioneer in this routing



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlinehuaiwei From Singapore, joined Oct 2008, 1116 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 8525 times:

Quoting Thorben (Reply 1):
I can't see SQ flying to any South American destination for at least another ten years, no EZE, no GRU, no GIG, no CCS, no SCL. What would be the benefit of connecting those cities to SIN??

That was what I would have assumed too five years ago, but a whole string of diplomatic and business ties seems to be building up between Singapore and various South American countries, especially Chile, Peru, and Mexico. The air rights already in force are also fairly liberal (especially to Chile and Peru), with expanded ASAs recently signed with Ecuador and Colombia, for eg. So all it takes now is for O&D traffic to build up through greater trade links and business activity, and to market South America as a viable tourism destination for Singaporeans and others in this region.

I would probably give it another five years or so.



It's huaiwei...not huawei. I have nothing to do with the PRC! :)
User currently offlineLipeGIG From Brazil, joined May 2005, 11442 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8160 times:
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I can see EK further increasing their presence in South America, and recently they said that "are looking closer to Rio de Janeiro market" and therefore, due to what is coming, i would say that a DXB-GIG will happen before 2012. If they decide to fly thru BCN, would be good but not the best, as the city demands a urgent link to Asia.

I can see BOG also as one of the first ones to get a service to Middle East.



New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
User currently offlinesw733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6341 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8109 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 8):
I said via Nairobi, Kenya. Decency means presenting the whole facts.

Via Nairobi might work...I stress the might because I'm just not sure. However, other than South Africa (which is, as mentioned, already being used by Malaysia Airlines), I would say Kenya is the best bet for a success if they decided to go via Africa.

Or maybe Windhoek?!?!   I can hope, right? Right? Riiiiight?


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 10, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 8009 times:

well to be honest, can not see any SQ passenger service into LATAM in the near future, yes for cargo (now regular not only ad-hoc flights to UIO, BOG, VCP)

EK, mabye we can see LIM and BOG in the near, middle future.



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3179 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7962 times:

I can see carriers starting service to Brazil. Makes sense, a booming economy. Just why SQ is interested is beyond me.

Curious how Middle Eastern carriers prefer Colombia over Venezuela. Do I smell another thorn in Colombia-Venezuela relations?   



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9894 posts, RR: 15
Reply 12, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7924 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Thread starter):
Both Emirates and Singapore Airlines look somewhat interested in serving the region, perhaps even Colombia. EK's DXB-GRU service launched due to the increase in trade between the Latin American and the Asian economies.

This is old news, 26 August 2009 to be more precise:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ces-deals-with-latin-american.html

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 4):
I don't think any of the Colombia services will happen in the short term.

That is correct, they have told me themselves that South America is not on the charts for the time being.

A388


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5934 posts, RR: 40
Reply 13, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7913 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 12):
Curious how Middle Eastern carriers prefer Colombia over Venezuela. Do I smell another thorn in Colombia-Venezuela relations?

well if actually even LH is suspending CCS and starting BOG



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineSumma767 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 2561 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 7493 times:

Quoting 757MDE (Reply 4):
We might have a bilateral with those countries, but I don't think it means anything.

Certainly as far as passenger services are concerned. Singapore have done charter cargo flights to Colombia, and we might see them again, even on a scheduled basis. EK has a big cargo op, and they could become interested in the colombian market and its flowers for export However, I think that the economic conditions will delay such moves. Dubai is itself in a spot of bother, an Colombia's currency is overvalued and thus will make its exports uncompetitive.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9894 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6800 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 14):
I think that the economic conditions will delay such moves.

You said that right. The economic conditions are making airlines much more cautious in starting new markets now. An operation from Barcelona or any part of Europe is very difficult according to some Spanish members here in the forum as the bilateral agreements between European countries and South American countries are still (very) restrictive, maybe excluding the ones mentioned in the article I posted (?)

A388


User currently offlinetalaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6535 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 15):
You said that right. The economic conditions are making airlines much more cautious in starting new markets now. An operation from Barcelona or any part of Europe is very difficult according to some Spanish members here in the forum as the bilateral agreements between European countries and South American countries are still (very) restrictive, maybe excluding the ones mentioned in the article I posted (?)

Well, if SQ or EK start to operate one-stop flights to South America via Spain they are not the first ones. Air China already serves PEK-MAD-GRU with a 5x frequency that I'm sure won't be long until it becomes daily. As for bilaterals, they do allow for 5th freedom rights and Air China does sell MAD-GRU tickets. SQ has already said that it is looking at flying to GRU from BCN as a tag-on to its current flight to the Spanish city.

In terms of profitability its another story. Air China is public, so it might be making huge losses in their operation to GRU but just to keep the link open will not scrap the flight.

To be honest I cannot see how SQ will tap into such a long-range market flying direct. GRU is big but it's not New York and a daily, all-business class A345 might overkill it, especially with easy connections in Europe. The same goes for EK, although they're probably less worried about profits (plus the flight is shorter) but I still don't see any huge expansion soon. The one-stop flights are bit more feasible although the "mini-hub" operation is too much wishful thinking. I could understand a tag-on the MAD EK flight to some Latin American destinations but, again, competition is fierce and I very much doubt EK can compete in terms of business contracts with IB, LAN, AF or even LH.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9894 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6487 times:

Quoting talaier (Reply 16):
Well, if SQ or EK start to operate one-stop flights to South America via Spain they are not the first ones. Air China already serves PEK-MAD-GRU with a 5x frequency that I'm sure won't be long until it becomes daily. As for bilaterals, they do allow for 5th freedom rights and Air China does sell MAD-GRU tickets. SQ has already said that it is looking at flying to GRU from BCN as a tag-on to its current flight to the Spanish city.

Than I got the wrong impression in those threads about the traffic rights from Air Comet not going to foreign airlines because the bilateral agreements don't allow this. Based on that thread it surprises me that foreign airlines are allowed to have fifth freedom rights from Spain but not that a foreign airline is allowed to take over or buy Spanish traffic rights from a (bankrupt) Spanish airline. Why is this the case or what am I missing here?

Even so, as you also indicate, demand from Asia/Middle East at the moment is probably not enough to warrant a plethora of airline serving those routes, not even via Europe as European and South American airlines already seem to provide sufficient capacity between the continents.

A388


User currently offlinefaucett From Peru, joined Jul 2009, 61 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6408 times:

As for direct flight from South America to the far East, wouldn't Japan make mor sense than Singapore. A 1 stop (or hopefully some day , nonstop) from Tokyo to West South America (like BOG or LIM) could tap on local + Brazil and Argentina market.
I always thought that LA should find a way to start NRT....but that's just me hoping.



faucett
User currently offlinetalaier From Spain, joined May 2008, 490 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6300 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 17):
Than I got the wrong impression in those threads about the traffic rights from Air Comet not going to foreign airlines because the bilateral agreements don't allow this. Based on that thread it surprises me that foreign airlines are allowed to have fifth freedom rights from Spain but not that a foreign airline is allowed to take over or buy Spanish traffic rights from a (bankrupt) Spanish airline. Why is this the case or what am I missing here?

Even so, as you also indicate, demand from Asia/Middle East at the moment is probably not enough to warrant a plethora of airline serving those routes, not even via Europe as European and South American airlines already seem to provide sufficient capacity between the continents.

I'm not very much into the legal issues but from my understanding a bilateral agreement implies return flights from country A to country B from airlines from both countries which require carriers to legally be from either countries, whilst fifth freedom rights imply a flight to a third country (China in this case) so the carrier needs to be from that third country. So whilst a fifth freedom right is merely the authorization to sell the remaining seats from a flight from country C (China) to A (Brazil), the bilateral implies operating a flight between A (Brazil) and B (Spain). I don't know how they are assigned but I'd imagine Spanish carriers can do the same in China by operating a say, MAD-PEK-HND, with rights over the Beijing-Tokyo sector.

Something similar happens with LAN and the MAD-FRA and soon-to be MAD.-CDG tag ons to their SCL flights.


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9894 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6216 times:

Quoting talaier (Reply 19):
I'm not very much into the legal issues but from my understanding a bilateral agreement implies return flights from country A to country B from airlines from both countries which require carriers to legally be from either countries, whilst fifth freedom rights imply a flight to a third country (China in this case) so the carrier needs to be from that third country. So whilst a fifth freedom right is merely the authorization to sell the remaining seats from a flight from country C (China) to A (Brazil), the bilateral implies operating a flight between A (Brazil) and B (Spain). I don't know how they are assigned but I'd imagine Spanish carriers can do the same in China by operating a say, MAD-PEK-HND, with rights over the Beijing-Tokyo sector.

Yes, that I know. I'm also not that into the legal side of bilateral agreements but it's interesting to have some background.

A388


User currently offline777jaah From Colombia, joined Jan 2006, 1403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6071 times:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 14):
an Colombia's currency is overvalued and thus will make its exports uncompetitive.

In fact, estimates is that Colombia will export as much as the country did in 2008, you must take into consideration that number could be reach will almost zero exports to Venezuela, which at the time accounted for more than 20% of the total. Europe and China will take much of that growth, which:

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 14):
Singapore have done charter cargo flights to Colombia, and we might see them again, even on a scheduled basis. EK has a big cargo op, and they could become interested in the colombian market and its flowers for export

might be interested in Colombia if trade grants it, as it seems it will. Also remember a possible free trade agreement between Colombia and the EU...

Quoting A388 (Reply 12):
That is correct, they have told me themselves that South America is not on the charts for the time being

I firmly believe we will not see pax service from EK and SQ in the medium term. Both rely on F and J traffic, and Colombia- Spain traffic, although is big enough for more competitors, don't grant much flow for premium flows such as the ones offered by EK and SQ in F. Of course, I might be wrong....

777jaah



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User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4030 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 5026 times:

SQ Nonstop is not going to happen. If SQ decides to serve GRU, it will have to stop. The likely routes would be through Europe or South Africa.

I think instead they should innovate and do SIN-BOM-GRU. The 777-300ER reach is about 16 hours. That is not enough because BOM-GRU will clock at about 16:45 with the 777.

If they go instead with the A380, the range is just right. They can start 3 x week and develop from there. The A380 is also faster than the 777 so BOM-GRU will take about 16 hours.



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User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8422 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4949 times:
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Quoting sw733 (Reply 9):
Via Nairobi might work...I stress the might because I'm just not sure. However, other than South Africa (which is, as mentioned, already being used by Malaysia Airlines), I would say Kenya is the best bet for a success if they decided to go via Africa.

Nairobi would be the obvious place in Africa's east coast since its the biggest hub between Egypt and South Africa. Its close to 4,000 miles from Cairo to J'berg with Nairobi the biggest between them. At some point SQ needs to serve more of Africa and this would be a way to achieve that as they already serve Cairo and JNB.


User currently offlineairceo From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 98 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 6 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4828 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Thread starter):
Emirates has already recently expressed an interest in using Barcelona as a mini hub for its flights to several Latin countries

This is in fact not correct at all. The company bidding for the skeleton of Air Comet is the Royal Emirates Group not the Emirates Group. Short of the fact that the Royal Emirates Group is chaired by a Maktoum this has NOTHING to do with EK. http://www.eleconomista.es/imag/_v3/...MISTA/Documentos/nota-emirates.jpg



@airceo



blogger at airceo | reach me: @airceo or fly@airceo.com
25 Fly2YYZ : I wouldnt call them pioneers as its more of a political route! I am not sure how much of a profit, if any, this flight is making.
26 Summa767 : But that is exports measured is dollars, not in volume. Increasing prices of oil, coal and other mined products accounts for most of that growth. Cof
27 A388 : Interesting. There was another thread mentioning that all the traffic rights of Air Comet have been offered publicly to other Spanish airlines who ac
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