CZECH380 From Czech Republic, joined Sep 2008, 45 posts, RR: 0 Posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16681 times:
So thanks to DL downsizing their B747 LAX-NRT routes this summer and taking away more than 100 daily seats, we are left with double the prices of their competition and about 300% increase of the prices over a year ago. I changed my FF from UA for this exact reason, UA would take away capacity, cancel routes from LAX-HKG etc...and left us with double the prices compared to the competition. It is now DL doing the same. There were some discussion here of it happening, but all I want to know is WHY. Does DL really think that they can charge $2,400 return economy LAX-HKG while direct on CX costs $1,200? Why is LAX not a hub for any US airline, but rather a focus city? After canceling their S.America flights, and now this, I think I will be giving my business back to One World or UA.
mah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31122 posts, RR: 74 Reply 1, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16551 times:
Clearly Delta was not getting strong results on it's LAX-NRT flight nor strong good bookings on its planned 11x weekly service, so it went to offering the least capacity of any airline on the route. And it's working if Delta is charging double the competition. If Delta can carry, say, 70% the passengers at 90% the revenue, that's usually a good thing.
PHXtoDCAtoMSP From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16495 times:
Quoting CZECH380 (Thread starter): So thanks to DL downsizing their B747 LAX-NRT routes this summer and taking away more than 100 daily seats, we are left with double the prices of their competition and about 300% increase of the prices over a year ago.
After the merger was finalized, Delta planned on cutting capacity on LAX-NRT saying that not having a hub in LAX or being a Japanese flag carrier meant that they should not have the highest capacity aircraft on the route. So in March and April 2009, DL cut the route to an A330-200. Within about a week of operating the A330-200, they realized that the route was 'too' profitable on a 332 and upgauged to a 744 for June onwards (or so I hear).
When they cut the 4x weekly 777 for this summer, I figured the same thing would happen again. Due to constraints that we might not be aware of, they kept the 1x daily flight on a 332 this time. I was wondering whether exactly what you are saying is happening would happen. So...it might be a wait and see thing again. A 332 seems like too little capacity for them. Maybe a 777 or back to the 744 is in the cards after the summer.
DLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3535 posts, RR: 9 Reply 3, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16479 times:
Shenanigans!!
A quick Travelocity search shows Delta flights LAX-HKG RT in July for $882.
I would suggest that the OP needs to try a different date.
DeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8772 posts, RR: 13 Reply 4, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16442 times:
Flying_727 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 428 posts, RR: 5 Reply 5, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16327 times:
Quoting CZECH380 (Thread starter): Why is LAX not a hub for any US airline, but rather a focus city?
UA considers LAX a hub. It's the smallest one, but still a hub. At UA, some employees refer to it as an "ub"
Also, to answer the core question, it is possible that removing capacity and doubling the price can work to Delta's benefit in various ways. Based on basic economic principles, supply and demand curves, DL can theoretically reduce the total seats sold and increase overall revenue. This lowers total cost because of the reduced weight but raises margins. (Being practicle is another story) Also, double the price vs the other carries may cause the others to raise there prices some and then DL just lowers there price to match. It is one strategy to rais the revenue.
Thanks for the reply. I guess you might be right, but isn't it a short-sighted policy, which makes people like myself change the loyalty program and in a long run the airline will loose...? They certainly don't have the best product on the route, although it is competitive. I am gold for the past two years, this year probably over 100K so close to new Diamond. That is fair bit of a revenue that they will loose due to this ridiculous pricing..... Hard to tell, since we don't know the load factors if that is the reason.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22077 posts, RR: 51 Reply 7, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 16249 times:
Hey if true, good for Delta. If they can constrict capacity and manage a nice revenue premium the more power to them.
Actually I think the long run, Delta will manage to change NWA's former Pacific network significantly and get it away from being a notoriously known as the consolidators special airline (esp ex Japan and intra-Asia) due to the need to fill so many large 747s. Shifting to smaller and more efficient equipment will over time get it away from having to chasie hordes of bodies.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Dying to know what dates you put in. I tried everything - from mid-week to weekend only etc. no prices around 882 on DL at all. (travelocity, DL website, orbitz, farecompare)....The closest which would take close to 48 hours and via several cities comes at 1,500. So if you have the dates that you can provide, would love to see it. Even their own website starts at 1400, but it is NOT LAX-NRT-HKG, but several other US cities and at least 38hours.....
SESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3385 posts, RR: 11 Reply 9, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 15952 times:
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 3): Clearly Delta was not getting strong results on it's LAX-NRT flight nor strong good bookings on its planned 11x weekly service, so it went to offering the least capacity of any airline on the route. And it's working if Delta is charging double the competition.
There is nothing "clear" about DL not getting strong results, it more alludes to the fact that DL decided it could reduce capacity and therefore raise fares. Because they're operating the route with a whopping nine seats less than the indomitable AA, they are "clearly" suffering financially on the route. As the A332 has considerably lower costs than the 777 or any other aircraft capable of comfortably operating LAX-NRT with almost identical capacity, could there have been a better decision than DL made? Every airline operates routes with the smallest needed aircraft to match demand, and with DL offering nonstop service from NRT to HNL, PDX, SFO, SEA, MSP, DTW, ATL, and JFK, more than any other US airline, it made logical sense for DL to downguage the less-important LAX-NRT route.
mah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31122 posts, RR: 74 Reply 10, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 15879 times:
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 12): As the A332 has considerably lower costs than the 777 or any other aircraft capable of comfortably operating LAX-NRT with almost identical capacity, could there have been a better decision than DL made?
I'm pretty sure we agree with each other. Not sure why you are trying to start an argument.
SESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3385 posts, RR: 11 Reply 11, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 15801 times:
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 13): I'm pretty sure we agree with each other. Not sure why you are trying to start an argument.
I wasn't trying to start an argument, I was just disagreeing with you saying that DL clearly wasn't getting strong results. NW used the 747-400 on LAX-NRT for years; DL simply employed a different strategy on the route. Without facts neither of us can predict what the results of the route were like.
deltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 8600 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 15695 times:
Quoting PHXtoDCAtoMSP (Reply 4): After the merger was finalized, Delta planned on cutting capacity on LAX-NRT saying that not having a hub in LAX or being a Japanese flag carrier meant that they should not have the highest capacity aircraft on the route. So in March and April 2009, DL cut the route to an A330-200. Within about a week of operating the A330-200, they realized that the route was 'too' profitable on a 332 and upgauged to a 744 for June onwards (or so I hear).
Delta is pulling the same crap UA trys to do. UA likes to pull it down to a 777 only to have the 744 back on the route a few months later.
(and IMHO DL is thinking they are getting LAX-HND, which would be a 744 route, and hints the downgrade(note, I'm not saying Delta got it, is getting it, nor am I saying I think Delta will be getting all the routes they asked for, but I think they will get LAX and maybe SEA....DTW and HNL IMHO wont happen)
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22077 posts, RR: 51 Reply 13, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 15588 times:
Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 15): Delta is pulling the same crap UA trys to do. UA likes to pull it down to a 777 only to have the 744 back on the route a few months later.
Yes but United's aircraft shuffle has logic. 744 = summer, 777 = winter.
Here we are going into the peak season, and DL capacity gets a trim over historic levels. Also SFO-NRT gets the 763 for summer.
Now if these shuffles are done solely on the basis of eeking out profitability that is a good thing. I've never been a fan of just having the largest capacity for the sake of bragging rights. Maybe as I mentioned earlier, DL has realized that the NWA Pacific network capacity was oversized and can be better run with smaller equipment.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Did not hear back regarding the $882 fare, so I presume you must have made a mistake. Nothing even in vicinity of that airfare on competition?! and I tried all date combos possible.
UAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2225 posts, RR: 13 Reply 16, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13553 times:
Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 12): Delta is pulling the same crap UA trys to do. UA likes to pull it down to a 777 only to have the 744 back on the route a few months later.
Sorry we never pull a 744 off just to pull it off, there is always a good reason behind it, like WINTER!
If this is true and DL is really charging this much more than good for them. They found a way to make some good money, go get that money Delta!
PGNCS From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 2516 posts, RR: 45 Reply 17, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 11239 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 7): Hey if true, good for Delta. If they can constrict capacity and manage a nice revenue premium the more power to them.
Exactly correct. Airlines are in business to make money, so managing capacity to generate profits is perfectly sensible.
Quoting CZECH380 (Reply 6): Thanks for the reply. I guess you might be right, but isn't it a short-sighted policy, which makes people like myself change the loyalty program and in a long run the airline will loose...? They certainly don't have the best product on the route, although it is competitive. I am gold for the past two years, this year probably over 100K so close to new Diamond. That is fair bit of a revenue that they will loose due to this ridiculous pricing..... Hard to tell, since we don't know the load factors if that is the reason.
No it's not short-sighted. You decide what's best for you, the airlines all decide what's best for them. If they are more profitable with smaller planes and higher fares, that's the smartest move from their perspective. It's supply and demand.
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 9): As the A332 has considerably lower costs than the 777 or any other aircraft capable of comfortably operating LAX-NRT with almost identical capacity, could there have been a better decision than DL made? Every airline operates routes with the smallest needed aircraft to match demand, and with DL offering nonstop service from NRT to HNL, PDX, SFO, SEA, MSP, DTW, ATL, and JFK, more than any other US airline, it made logical sense for DL to downguage the less-important LAX-NRT route.
Given the fleet options now available to Delta, changes will likely be much more dynamic in an attempt to match capacity to demand.
Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 12): Delta is pulling the same crap UA trys to do. UA likes to pull it down to a 777 only to have the 744 back on the route a few months later.
It's business. The route doesn't belong to a 744; it belongs to whatever UA or DL or whoever wants to put on it. If there is lower demand on a given route and a 744 can be used more profitably elsewhere in the network, how does it make sense not to shift the aircraft accordingly?
Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 16): Sorry we never pull a 744 off just to pull it off, there is always a good reason behind it, like WINTER!
This couldn't have been said any better. Thanks!
Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 16): If this is true and DL is really charging this much more than good for them. They found a way to make some good money, go get that money Delta!
BalkantoDelta From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 33 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9616 times:
As someone who flies LAX to ICN four times a year ( sometimes through SFO/sometimes through NRT to Pusan) all I have to say is this:
Who cares about Delta Anyway. No PTV's on the 744 and terrible service. I just check TRAVELOCITY for July and both carriers are still close, actually Delta is 100$ cheaper. So I dot know where the original posting is getting these 2900$ fares. UA does it better on the 777 that you can catch from LAX and SFO. PTV's, premium economy etc etc.
Delta can charge 3000$ if they want. IM not going !!!
worldtraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 9454 times:
Apparently you missed that DL is using the PMNW 332s on LAXNRT which have nice to tail AVOD.
Let's also keep in mind that DL is the largest airline flying between the US and Japan and has nine mainland US gateways - far more than any other airline, including 5 in the western US alone.
DL partner KE also offers service LAX-NRT.
Given that there are a handful of seats difference between AA's 777 and DL's 332 configuration, I wouldn't get too carried away w/ the difference in aircraft size. A single extra section a month changes the math.
DL is also shifting its network focus from local to flow traffic - LAXNRT on NW relied on carrying a lot of flow traffic. During the summer DL is far more content to carry local passengers - which is probably part of why you are seeing higher prices on DL LAX-HKG vs. CX. DL can make more money carrying two passengers LAX-NRT and another NRT-HKG than it can competing in the connecting market during the summer.
Also, DL is starting DTW-HKG service which is where its focus from the mainland will be this year. The west coast WILL get nonstop service to HKG but it won't be this summer.... and thus DL is not going to focus on maintaining share in the US west coast to HKG market during the peak season. NW didn't have that choice before.
Finally, the 744s have been redeployed to other parts of DL's network including JFK where it will allow DL to offer the most seats between NYC and Japan and to Israel. DL as with all carriers must make decisions that maximize NETWORK benefits.
mah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31122 posts, RR: 74 Reply 20, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 8527 times:
Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 19): Apparently you missed that DL is using the PMNW 332s on LAXNRT which have nice to tail AVOD.
So? Every airline on the route except UA has nice to tail AVOD, and UA is in the process of installing to tail AVOD on its 777s as we speak.
Quoting worldtraveler (Reply 19):
Given that there are a handful of seats difference between AA's 777 and DL's 332 configuration, I wouldn't get too carried away w/ the difference in aircraft size. A single extra section a month changes the math.
That's funny. You got carried away to the point you created a whole topic about it.
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38514 posts, RR: 80 Reply 21, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 8017 times:
Why would anyone fly Delta from LAX across the Pacific when you can fly much more superior airlines such as Singapore, Thai Airways, ANA, JAL, Philipines Airlines, Cathay Pacific, EVA, Air China, Malayasia and even United for roughly the same price?
Delta is fine for short hops from Orlando to Atlanta but would never fly them long-haul. Delta's service just can't compete with other trans-Pacific cariers.
SESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3385 posts, RR: 11 Reply 22, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7857 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 21): Why would anyone fly Delta from LAX across the Pacific when you can fly much more superior airlines such as Singapore, Thai Airways, ANA, JAL, Philipines Airlines, Cathay Pacific, EVA, Air China, Malayasia and even United for roughly the same price?
Delta is fine for short hops from Orlando to Atlanta but would never fly them long-haul. Delta's service just can't compete with other trans-Pacific cariers.
Why would anyone fly any US airline from LAX to Asia based on service, when we all know full well that DL, AA, and UA (whom you singled out for unknown reasons...) have considerably worse service than every Asian carrier? People fly based on things like fare, schedule, frequent flier miles and other things; rarely is service the determining factor.
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 20): So? Every airline on the route except UA has nice to tail AVOD, and UA is in the process of installing to tail AVOD on its 777s as we speak.
I think he was responding to the person above that inquired why anyone would fly on DL with their PTV-less 747s and terrible service, which was wrong as DL will not be operating 747s on LAX-NRT this summer as the thread starter pointed out.
chrisair From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 1774 posts, RR: 4 Reply 23, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7825 times:
Quoting Superfly (Reply 21): Why would anyone fly Delta from LAX across the Pacific when you can fly much more superior airlines such as Singapore, Thai Airways, ANA, JAL, Philipines Airlines, Cathay Pacific, EVA, Air China, Malayasia and even United for roughly the same price?
Because none of the airlines you listed are part of Skyteam......
Superfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38514 posts, RR: 80 Reply 24, posted (3 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7794 times:
Quoting SESGDL (Reply 22): Why would anyone fly any US airline from LAX to Asia based on service, when we all know full well that DL, AA, and UA (whom you singled out for unknown reasons...) have considerably worse service than every Asian carrier?
I think we're saying the same thing.
Quoting chrisair (Reply 23): Because none of the airlines you listed are part of Skyteam......
Ok, Korean Air?
Bring back the Concorde
25 mah4546: In my experience - and as a former elite on Delta - Delta's premium product is significantly below that of AA and UA; albeit at the same time its coa
26 DLPMMM: No, I just went to bed, got up, had breakfast, played golf...I don't spend all my time on the internet. $882 was for May dates (I didn't look at the
27 SESGDL: AA and UA's premium products are also significantly worse than that of MH, JL, KE, NH, OZ, CX, and others. DL's international premium product has imp
28 DLPMMM: Your experience must be very dated. Delta 180 degree Lie Flat J products (77L and 764) can compete with most international J products (save maybe som
29 CZECH380: What two airlines? And please - give me the two dates you searched return in July. Cause if you don't put the dates, and you don't put the exact airf
30 LAXintl: You realized UA's new business class is lieflat also right? So again, how does Delta J "blow" UA away?
31 CZECH380: I just did that. $882 is for travel in winter months. The airfare you are talking about is actually codeshare - not DL metal, and flies via Taipei on
32 PHXtoDCAtoMSP: Personally, I wouldn't use the phrase "blow away" when comparing new DL business class to UA new business class. But I do wonder why CO & UA chos
33 mah4546: Sorry, but DL's J new J product - which is barely on any of its overall fleet - doesn't hold a candle to UA's. And I will fully admit that AA's is ou
34 deltal1011man: UA will be runnign the 744 on LAX-NRT starting in last time you were on a DL plane was? same question as above 744s will go into mod work late this y
36 mah4546: Summer 2007 in business class to Zurich and nothing much has changed based on what I've seen - same old seats, same poor quality food. When's the las
37 UAL747DEN: I don't have a huge problem with the food in J or F on most airlines, I am always amazed that it is what it is being that this stuff flies around the
38 BalkantoDelta: What two airlines? And please - give me the two dates you searched return in July. Cause if you don't put the dates, and you don't put the exact airf
39 Viscount724: I thought the US and Japan were on the verge of an Open Skies agreement? How is a restriction on the number of flights or routes you can operate to a
40 CZECH380: $1498 DL - but it's not LAX-HKG return direct. Look at where it takes you on the way back. If you want to travel direct, it's the price i mentioned.
41 deltal1011man: Yea was looking for a date that it went back to a 744. only 4 HND slots are being given to the US. ATL-LGW 2008. JFK-ATL 2008. (oh and did a pre-flig
43 Superfly: International first class in the A-cabin of a United Airlines 747-400 is the best first class experience of any other domestic(US) carrier. Does Delt
44 viscount724: UA and AA are the only US carriers with longhaul international F class and have been for several years.
45 deltal1011man: thanks. Really the DOT said this? didn't think so
47 Flighty: People get off on saying an airline should make decisions for THEM because THEY have $24,000 or whatever to spend. Airlines know exactly where the mon
48 mah4546: Dude, Delta will be lucky to get just one slot. They aren't getting more. Four slots to four carriers. Use common sense. DOT doesn't have to say it.
49 deltal1011man: If its done right, aka they look at the ATIs/JVs Delta should get more than one.......seeing as our gov. has yet to do anything since oh around Jan.
50 mah4546: But it won't be done that way. Alliances are not going to be taken into consideration and DOT certainly cannot presume that the alliances are going t
51 deltal1011man: It wont, your right. your also right i cant be presumed, and they should get the ATI's done first, If not the do a pretty good job of screwing SkyTea
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From Czech Republic, joined Sep 2008, 45 posts, 
From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31122 posts, 
From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 299 posts, 
As the A332 has considerably lower costs than the 777 or any other aircraft capable of comfortably operating LAX-NRT with almost identical capacity, could there have been a better decision than DL made? Every airline operates routes with the smallest needed aircraft to match demand, and with DL offering nonstop service from NRT to HNL, PDX, SFO, SEA, MSP, DTW, ATL, and JFK, more than any other US airline, it made logical sense for DL to downguage the less-important LAX-NRT route. 
Exactly correct. Airlines are in business to make money, so managing capacity to generate profits is perfectly sensible.
From Thailand, joined May 2000, 38514 posts, 
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