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What Will Replace Air Transat's A310's?  
User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3052 posts, RR: 2
Posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9609 times:

I was just reading on Wikipedia that Air Transat intends to retire their entire fleet of A310's by 2015, as we all know this isn't a 100% reliable source.

BUT, if they are replacing them, does anyone know what they intend to replace them with?

Air Transat don't usually purchase brand new aircraft and usually pick some good second hand examples to fly, but could they make an exception and order brand new aircraft like the 787 or A330 to replace them with? Just to add to the rumour mill, I was reading on another thread on here the other day, that there was an order for 12 787's with no purchasers name attached to the order... Could this be for Air Transat?!

There are also probably going to be some good used 767 examples, come on to the market by that times, when other airlines replace these with 787's.

Could anyone also answer, which airline flew Air Transats existing A310's before they flew them?

I must say, when I have flown them across the Atlantic, I have always had a good experience them!

[Edited 2010-04-17 11:51:43]

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26129 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9604 times:

Well it was to be the CO 767-200 fleet until that deal fell apart at the last moment.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineBoeing744 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1844 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 9551 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Thread starter):
A330

I'm not sure if this would work for Transat. They already operate a few but they are definitely too big for some of the more obscure routes to Europe and from some of the smaller routes TS flies from Canada down south. Airports like YYJ (with a 7000' runway) which Transat has served before to Mexico would be too small for the A330 in a high density config all the way to PVR or CUN I would think... The A310 seems to work perfectly for TS's current needs really...

Some 767-200s may be about the right size but I think some of them would be even older than TS's current metal.

[Edited 2010-04-17 11:59:33]

User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3052 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9214 times:

That took me by surprise!

I never knew they had been in talks with CO about taking on their 762's, it would make sense as these would be an ideal replacement for the A310's size and capacity wise.

Even though CO's 762's are some of the newest of this type in the air. This type of aircraft has been in production for a similar period as the A310 and would have thought both types would be compariable for operating costs, fuel burn, etc. All Air Transat would benefit from is an aircraft with a lower cycle rate...


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16365 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 9122 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Well it was to be the CO 767-200 fleet until that deal fell apart at the last moment.

I did not know that was even in the works. CO has stated that their 787 order is to supplement, not replace, their 767 fleet.

Realistically, TS will likely slowly replace the 313 fleet with a mix of 332/333 aircraft. Some of the thinner routes cannot handle the 332/333 so perhaps TS will hang on to 4-6 313 for some time (10+ years).



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25983 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 8961 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Could anyone also answer, which airline flew Air Transats existing A310's before they flew them?

Original operator of Air Transat's 13 current A313s and, where applicable (in parentheses) the most recent operator prior to Air Transat. In a few cases, there have been other operators (as many as 6 in one case).

Emirates (x 4, no other operators)
Emirates (Kenya Airways)
Lufthansa (x 2, no other operators)
Lufthansa (Hapag-Lloyd)
Lufthansa (Air Madrid)
Wardair (Air India)
Wardair (TAP Air Portugal)
TAP Air Portugal (x 2, no other operators)

Total 13


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26129 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (4 years 8 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8813 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 4):
I did not know that was even in the works. CO has stated that their 787 order is to supplement, not replace, their 767 fleet.

This deal was to occur a year or two after 9/11, before the 787 was even launched.

In hindsight, CO is probably happy it did not go through as the added 767 capacity has been nicely used to expand in Europe during the subsequent years.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineTK739ER From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 86 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 8479 times:

I still strongly believe that, there is only one replacement for A300/310 is another A300/310   

User currently offlineBoeing744 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1844 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 8177 times:

On a side-note: If TS ever did get their hands on some 762s, do you think they would configure them 2-4-2 in Economy instead of the usual 2-3-2?

Having experienced both Transat's 332 and 310 in high density 3-3-3 configuration, I find it pretty brutal!


User currently offlineKappel From Suriname, joined Jul 2005, 3533 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 8084 times:

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 8):
do you think they would configure them 2-4-2 in Economy instead of the usual 2-3-2?

No doubt, 2-4-2.

Quoting TK739ER (Reply 7):
there is only one replacement for A300/310 is another A300/310

Too bad Airbus doesn't produce them anymore.

This points to a gap in the market. There is no 762/a310 replacement. Both the 788 and a332 are quite a bit bigger. The 752 comes close, but lacks in range. So do the a321 and 739ER. And any eventual replacement is nowhere near in sight. Perhaps the largest of the new narrowbodies will have a suitable replacement at the top end, but that is 10-15 years away.

So either they have to buy newer 762's, or fly with bigger aircraft.



L1011,733,734,73G,738,743,744,752,763,772,77W,DC855,DC863,DC930,DC950,MD11,MD88,306,319,320,321,343,346,ARJ85,CR7,E195
User currently offlineBoeing744 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1844 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7792 times:

Quoting Kappel (Reply 9):
Both the 788 and a332 are quite a bit bigger.

Perhaps in the short run TS could get some more A332s and just not have them in high-density configuration. I am wondering if the more efficient A330 in a normal config would be more or less economical than a high-density A310. I would think a lighter A332 with fuel only to go to Mexico or somewhere could probably operate off 7000' runways alright...

Delta's A332s have approximately the same number of seats as Transat's A310s.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25983 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 7783 times:

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 8):
On a side-note: If TS ever did get their hands on some 762s, do you think they would configure them 2-4-2 in Economy instead of the usual 2-3-2?

Having experienced both Transat's 332 and 310 in high density 3-3-3 configuration, I find it pretty brutal!

2-4-2 on a 767 is worse than 3-3-3 on Airbus widebodies. I expect that's why Air Transat has avoided 767s as the typical Canadian passenger wouldn't fit in the seat of a 2-4-2 767.


User currently offlineATA L1011 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1392 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 7615 times:

I still strongly believe that, there is only one replacement for A300/310 is another A300/310   
[quote=Kappel,reply=9]Too bad Airbus doesn't produce them anymore.

This points to a gap in the market. There is no 762/a310 replacement. Both the 788 and a332 are quite a bit bigger.[/quote

You are right there is nothing out there to replace the 762/310, even though the 310 was based on the 300 the 300 just simply is quite a bit more bird (its actually closer in cabin size to the 332 than 310). Its capacity is more on par with the 788, about the same length and the same 2-4-2 config. Economics just went away for the 2 smallest widebodies in recent years for many, I do hope that they will be around in some passenger form for a while to come!



Treat others as you expect to be treated!
User currently offlineATA L1011 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1392 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7557 times:

I would also assume that the 310 will be around for quite a while, just look at how long they operated the Tristars. Just leaving service a few years ago or so.


Treat others as you expect to be treated!
User currently offlinegilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3052 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7405 times:

I think some used A330-200's would be the best replacement... However their existing 332's have over 100 extra seats on board!

Maybe only have 10-12 of them replace the existing fleet of 15 A310's.

How come their 332's seat more passengers than their 333's? It seems the 333's have a 2-4-2 seat config, similar to schedule carriers. Could this be due to the 333's having a lessor range than the 332's and with a higher config, it would restrict the aircrafts range from Europe to western Canada?

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 2):
Airports like YYJ (with a 7000' runway) which Transat has served before to Mexico would be too small for the A330 in a high density config all the way to PVR or CUN I would think...

I don't think this would be an issue, Monarch here in the UK use to fly their 332's in a high density config from Luton to Orlando non-stop, which is about 4000 miles (?) and LTN's runway is about 7100ft.


User currently offlineBoeing744 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1844 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7355 times:

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 14):

How come their 332's seat more passengers than their 333's? It seems the 333's have a 2-4-2 seat config, similar to schedule carriers. Could this be due to the 333's having a lessor range than the 332's and with a higher config, it would restrict the aircrafts range from Europe to western Canada?

I think this is exactly the reason. TS's A333s are not the extra range version such as Air Canada's.

Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 14):
I don't think this would be an issue, Monarch here in the UK use to fly their 332's in a high density config from Luton to Orlando non-stop, which is about 4000 miles (?) and LTN's runway is about 7100ft.

Interesting... Maybe it's possible then.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25983 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7237 times:

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 15):
Quoting gilesdavies (Reply 14):

How come their 332's seat more passengers than their 333's? It seems the 333's have a 2-4-2 seat config, similar to schedule carriers. Could this be due to the 333's having a lessor range than the 332's and with a higher config, it would restrict the aircrafts range from Europe to western Canada?

I think this is exactly the reason. TS's A333s are not the extra range version such as Air Canada's.

It was my understanding that the 333s are 8-abreast to equal the seating capacity of the 9-abreast 332s (which have one more seat than the 333s) and thus make it easier to interchange aircraft when necessary for maintenance or technical reasons etc. With only 2 aircraft of each model, that's probably a wise decision.

Even at 8-abreast, the TS 333s still have 77 more seats than AC 333s, for example.


User currently offlineSafeFlyer From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 627 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 7054 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
Even at 8-abreast, the TS 333s still have 77 more seats than AC 333s, for example.

Which is really solely because there only is 21 Club seats at 2x3x2 up front, and with 38' of pitch only, that's where the extra 77 seats can be fitted, given otherwise, TS's 333s have an identical config in Y to AC's. They are both 2x4x2 @32' of pitch.

They have 3 332s btw, not just a pair, for a total of 5 330s.

'Safe


User currently offlineBoeing744 From Canada, joined Jun 2005, 1844 posts, RR: 23
Reply 18, posted (4 years 8 months 5 days ago) and read 7032 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 16):
It was my understanding that the 333s are 8-abreast to equal the seating capacity of the 9-abreast 332s (which have one more seat than the 333s) and thus make it easier to interchange aircraft when necessary for maintenance or technical reasons etc. With only 2 aircraft of each model, that's probably a wise decision.

Ah you could be right there. That actually makes a lot of sense.


User currently offlineAirCanada014 From Canada, joined Oct 2005, 1513 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6879 times:

I think Air Transat will order the newer a/c B787 or A350? If I recall they were looking at A350 since they are like Airbus a/c...

User currently onlinelaca773 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 4064 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (4 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 6816 times:
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Will we ever see a long haul widebody shorty, like the 762ER, A313 developed again that are ideal for long, thin routes?

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