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Why Take A LearJet From California To Europe?  
User currently offlineua777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 18837 times:

Was looking through the flight pattern of a LearJet 60.

There were several pictures of it both in the states and overseas.

Just came back last month from SNN to VNY via YQX and STP.

Question is:

This is one of several similar trips this aircraft has taken overseas. Why would an owner/operator want to take a LearJet 60 that far with so many stops when, say a Gulfstream G150 or Falcon 50 could do it in two stops with similar costs? Also, at just under 12 hours of flight time and 15 hours of travel time, how can a two-man crew do this trip?

Thanks!


"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineN104UA From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 915 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 18501 times:

It could be that he could not afford to buy a bigger a/c and wanted to take his own. With the flight crew, they most likely trade off at the fuel stops.


"Learn the rules, so you know how to break them properly." -H.H. The Dalai Lama
User currently offlineKELPkid From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6388 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 18308 times:

Quoting ua777222 (Thread starter):
This is one of several similar trips this aircraft has taken overseas. Why would an owner/operator want to take a LearJet 60 that far with so many stops when, say a Gulfstream G150 or Falcon 50 could do it in two stops with similar costs? Also, at just under 12 hours of flight time and 15 hours of travel time, how can a two-man crew do this trip?

Thanks!

maybe money's an issue? Seriosuly, a Gulfstream costs a lot more coin than a well-heeled Lear 60 that the guy/company/whoever already owns....

As to the crew hours, if the aircraft is owned by the said party, then it is a Part 91 flight (the general operating rules). Part 135 covers commercial operations (i.e. another party, not the company itself, is paid by another party to do the flying), and Part 121 covers scheduled airline operations. Anyhow, the Part 91 rules are much more relaxed than 121 or 135...



Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
User currently offlineua777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 18103 times:

I'm aware of the FAR/AIM coverage of the flight, but the question really is just why?


"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8273 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18088 times:

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 3):
I'm aware of the FAR/AIM coverage of the flight, but the question really is just why?

Because that's the equipment the guy has!



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User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25356 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18069 times:

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 3):
I'm aware of the FAR/AIM coverage of the flight, but the question really is just why?

You use what you have. Maybe they had to make multiple stops in Europe, and the convenience of being able to do that on your own schedule more than offset the fuel stops on the transatlantic legs.


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4006 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 18054 times:
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Quoting ua777222 (Reply 3):
I'm aware of the FAR/AIM coverage of the flight, but the question really is just why?

Hopping around once in Europe perhaps? All in all, that costs less than chartering a bigger bird to cross the Atlantic and another one within Europe.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 17937 times:

A business class seat on a widebody aircraft would have been a lot more comfortable then any learjet and probably faster too?

User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8273 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 17911 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 7):
A business class seat on a widebody aircraft would have been a lot more comfortable then any learjet and probably faster too?

Working off somebody else's schedule is never faster, and if you're talking airspeed, the newer lears will keep right up with the heavies, and they usually fly higher.



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User currently offlinebriboy From Canada, joined Jul 2001, 366 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 17879 times:

May have been doing patient transport. I know there are Lears that operate rather regularly from YYZ to Europe that are doing medial reparation.


next up: YYC, SFO, SYD, AKL, WLG, CMB, BKK, SIN, FRA, VCE, JFK
User currently offlineincitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4015 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 17822 times:

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 7):
A business class seat on a widebody aircraft would have been a lot more comfortable then any learjet and probably faster too?

It is a difference similar to that of traveling on a bus and traveling on a car.

Sometimes people who do heavy use of business jets get on commercial flights, but most of them hate it, especially having to deal with crowds and the long distance from the curb onto the airplane in most large airports.



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User currently offlineua777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 17807 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 10):
Sometimes people who do heavy use of business jets get on commercial flights, but most of them hate it, especially having to deal with crowds and the long distance from the curb onto the airplane in most large airports.

The absolute horror.



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offline2175301 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 1071 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 17702 times:

Quoting ua777222 (Reply 11):
Quoting incitatus (Reply 10):
Sometimes people who do heavy use of business jets get on commercial flights, but most of them hate it, especially having to deal with crowds and the long distance from the curb onto the airplane in most large airports.

The absolute horror.

It's not the distance: Its the time wasted and the hassle.

You also get better baggage handling (as I scratch my head in wonder about the damage done to my main luggage on Friday - no human could have done that; it had to get caught in some kind of machine or something). Guess its time for another new (not cheap) Samsonite case: but, at least it stayed intact enough to keep the contents inside the case.


User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 829 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 17612 times:

Folks fly all sorts of smaller types to Europe too. Many single engined props make the crossing during the summer.

I once saw and N registered C-182 in Florence, Italy. Getting there is half the fun I suppose.


User currently offlineua777222 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3348 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 17186 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 13):
I once saw and N registered C-182 in Florence, Italy. Getting there is half the fun I suppose.

Obviously any Cessna had to be delivered from KS. Its my understanding that a lot of owners and operators of smaller props will register their aircraft out of the states but they are based in Europe (not making multiple trips across the pond).



"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 17094 times:

Quoting incitatus (Reply 10):
Sometimes people who do heavy use of business jets get on commercial flights, but most of them hate it, especially having to deal with crowds and the long distance from the curb onto the airplane in most large airports.

Good point. And i guess its still a relatively short flight for a long haul. those couple of refueling stops are probably less time then the airport waits and it wont take long to refuel a learjet. 10 mins maybe?


User currently offlineSLCGuy From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 15713 times:

A bit much for a Lear 60, but that's what they have. Bet the guy wishes he had a G-550 which could do eastbound nonstop and westbound with one stop at most. Says a lot about the hassle of flying commercial with super elite, business deluxe, premium class, ultra modern, compartimentailized laydown at weird angle seats, that you can't see out the window of, even if the F/A's did let you open the shades. And purple mood lighting as well.

Yeah, I'd take the Lear too!

[Edited 2010-04-20 06:36:16]

User currently offlineN6238P From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 14314 times:

Is it just me or there just a general misconception on the purpose of corporate flight departments and corporate flying in general or even how it works?

I'm not trying to put down anyone in this thread or forum, this is just a thought.



To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 14138 times:

Quoting ua777222 (Thread starter):

What makes you think the person was on board during the over ocean flight...? Maybe they wanted the plane in Europe while they traveled around Europe.. then took a 1st Class airline flight while the plane ferried empty back to the states.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4006 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13976 times:
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Quoting N6238P (Reply 17):
Is it just me or there just a general misconception on the purpose of corporate flight departments and corporate flying in general or even how it works?

No kidding. The general public still believes that it's just an expensive toy for rich fat cats and politicians only.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13360 times:

Quoting SLCGuy (Reply 16):
ays a lot about the hassle of flying commercial with super elite, business deluxe,

The thought of having to share a cabin with some of those spoiled brat frequent flying elite status passengers is enough to push me to the private jet as well! If only to avoid the tantrums some of those elite passengers start on with when they can't get their own way!  

That's often part of the reason people go for private jets, even if it means a lot of stops along the way.


User currently offlineDiamondFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 1547 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 13194 times:

I've spent a little bit of time working in an FBO, and we had a couple of jets based out of there. We had a Hawker 800XP and a Citation Excel, that from the Central US went to Europe. Not sure the exact routes they took, but they both did it. It came down to them wanting to visit various locations within Europe, and it was just going to be easier for them to take the smaller jets, than to use one of the alternatives.

-DiamondFlyer


User currently offlinedl767captain From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2539 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 12332 times:

Quoting SLCGuy (Reply 16):

strangely enough i'd rather go with the 747 and funny lie flat seats haha


User currently offlineLufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3213 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 11739 times:

Quoting dl767captain (Reply 22):
strangely enough i'd rather go with the 747 and funny lie flat seats haha

Actually me too...and have stand up size bathrooms and multiple ppl to serve me drinks (hopefully some good lookers... yes i like to fly EK!). And i know some corporate jets have that but most smaller ones dont. And you'd have heaps of change!

So i guess it depends what you use it for. If you're somebody like, say, Hillary Clinton, it would be a logicstical nightmare trying to both clear security and keep to their agenda using commercial. And for some extremely busy ppl, like heads of certain banks, certain intergovernment bodies (UN types) and even somebody like branson, at times, the schedule is just too tight and too busy to wait for commercial service. Especially if it would involve making multiple connections. Something like trying to get from the south of italy to Gothenburg in sweden (lets say ur in the car parts or dishwasher business...mulitple plants) you'd lose the best part of day travelling by the time you did 2 connections. Of course if you can fly direct....

That being said, if all other things were equal first on the 747 is more comfortable then any Lear. Now if you had a Gulfstream however.... that changes everything.


User currently offlineN6238P From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 508 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 11740 times:

A lot of time, flight departments use their planes as shuttles just to fly executives, engineers, management from the offices in lets say California to one of their plants in say Tennessee or Mexico or China. Long or short, these trips are numerous and many are done in a week just go get many people to many different places in little time. Most of these companies don't have facilities that are remotely close to a airport with any sort of air service. A lot of times these trips need to be made right away. Talking to many corporate pilots, sometimes notice of a trip across the country or even internationally can come within 2-3 hours before take off. Corporations do not have the time to deal with the unpredictability of the airlines or travel to or from an airport. Business is done in seconds not days. That fact that a G-V or Falcon 900 or Lear 60 is nice inside have nothing to do with why these flights are occurring.


To actively root against anybody is just low, and I hope karma comes back at you with a vengeance
25 ua777222 : NetJets has a great system if you ask me. Not sure if they still partner with LH, but the deal is if you're in California and say in a C750, you fly t
26 mNeo : Doesn't that defeat the purpose of having a private jet? It seems like this would be at least 2-3 hours longer than just taking a direct NetJets flig
27 Gulfstream650 : Some people like to take a PJ because it allows the to have a bit of a party with friends on the trip. Half a case of red wine, beer, bourbon and a pa
28 Post contains links blueflyer : But it is much more expansive to fly NetJets from end to end than to go commercial, even in First, over the Atlantic, unless you have a party of seve
29 xdlx : The basic concept of flying.... is to travel between two points with the most efficiency possible. The arguments listed above of Bussiness or Lie Flat
30 Post contains links and images etherealsky : A professor of mine likes to tell the story of a friend of his who used to ferry Skyhawks from the continental US to Hawaii; Apparently all the seats
31 ua777222 : Its geared towards members who have shares of smaller aircraft that don't have the legs to get there. Gulfstream owners will hop the pond all the tim
32 tomascubero : A Guatemalan Learjet 45XR, TG-ABY, made is journey from MGGT to LLBG (GUA-TLV) don't have the stops though but that is also a hell of a trip! There ar
33 YXXMIKE : I thought if I ever won the lottery I'd buy a PC XII and ferry it from Switzerland myself, again half the fun is the journey! I once knew a PC XII own
34 474218 : But when you fly commercial you fly on their schedule!
35 26point2 : I know what you mean but this statement is not true. Reims France had a licensing agreement with Cessna for many years and produced C-152, C-172, C-1
36 ua777222 : Then that further reinforces the concept that they don't make the trip across the pond but are registered in N. America. Thanks for the clarification
37 SEPilot : Because he can.
38 CFBFrame : Yep!!! And if you have to ask why, any explanation here will never help you understand.
39 nra-3b : Hey Guys, I put this question to my son, a former Lear 60 driver and current Challenger 300 captain. He flew the Lear for several years before his com
40 UTAH744 : I will tell you WHY the boss uses a corporate jet vs. commercial. The airliner leaves on their schedule and the corporate jet leaves WHEN HE SHOWS UP!
41 26point2 : I've flown mid-sized biz jets from California to Europe many times. It can make sense for certain people with certain needs. Travel time is actually f
42 Aesma : Are private jets becoming cheaper ?
43 2175301 : When you look at the time value of some people... Private Jets are very cheap indeed. I personally know a guy who charges $10,000 per hour - and gets
44 SEPilot : In the machine tool business down time can be extremely expensive; one machine down can stop an entire assembly line. It is not unusual for a company
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