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Flight Ready Concorde?  
User currently offlineconcorde007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 10 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 16 hours ago) and read 21384 times:
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I was just wondering how close some of the stored Concordes are to flight ready status. I know some are on static museum display, those werent the ones I was asking about. Is it a paperwork problem flight certificates, D check, etc...? Or is maybe a logistical issue, location, crew, etc...? Or is it a mechanical issue? I was think I remembered one of the main reasons for retiring the Concorde was that they were becoming a nightmare to maintain, and the cost was sky high... What would be the "step by step" procedure for returning the Concorde to a ready to fly status?? Cheers!

74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7345 posts, RR: 32
Reply 1, posted (4 years 16 hours ago) and read 21314 times:

I would say that they all are at least $20-40 million away from flight status. If they still have the engines.

User currently offlinewolflair From Mexico, joined Sep 2007, 169 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 15 hours ago) and read 21106 times:

On top of those 20-40 million, manufacturers have withdrawn support for the a/c, so some degree of tech support is required before the a/c is back flying. Further, I believe I read somewhere that the airworthiness certificate was withdrawn, which is much more of an issue to have the Concorde back flying.

I may add that then you also need to train crews again (they may have lost their type rating)



JMM -A319,A320,A321,A333,A343,AT45,AT72,B462,B722,B737s from -200 to -800,B744,B752,B762,B763,BE35,DC91,F70,Ju52,MD80,S3
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13046 posts, RR: 78
Reply 3, posted (4 years 14 hours ago) and read 20947 times:

More like £100-150 million.
No joke.
Not going to happen, trust me.


User currently offlineflyingAY From Finland, joined Jun 2007, 697 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 14 hours ago) and read 20847 times:

Quoting wolflair (Reply 2):
On top of those 20-40 million, manufacturers have withdrawn support for the a/c, so some degree of tech support is required before the a/c is back flying. Further, I believe I read somewhere that the airworthiness certificate was withdrawn, which is much more of an issue to have the Concorde back flying.

All kind of really old veteran planes are flown in different kind of events. For example, are all these things you mention available for things like Avro Vulcan?


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8875 posts, RR: 40
Reply 5, posted (4 years 12 hours ago) and read 20462 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 3):
Not going to happen, trust me.

It was done with the Vulcan. Concorde has a much bigger support base.

It could happen. But not anytime soon.

[Edited 2010-04-21 11:39:12]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineconcorde007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 10 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 11 hours ago) and read 20131 times:
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Im not asking if it will happen, I know that one day maybe, but never any time soon. I want to know the process, what would it take?? How would you go about it??

User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13046 posts, RR: 78
Reply 7, posted (4 years 11 hours ago) and read 20065 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 5):
It was done with the Vulcan. Concorde has a much bigger support base.

Not to be a grinch, but untrue on both counts.

Many times more Vulcan's were built, many times more people therefore had experience on them.
It was far less complex than Concorde too.

Concorde was a tiny fleet, operated by an equally small number of people, one example, take all those who flew a Concorde, from first flight of the Prototype to the last BA flight, including flight engineers, from BA, AF, BAC, Aerospatiale, Braniff, there have still been twice as many astronauts.

Many BA Concorde staffers had been with the fleet much or all of their working lives, from BAC to BA.

The spares stock is gone.
For various museum aircraft, at auction for charity fund raising.

One reason BA, despite spending months in 2003 investigating the idea, did not run past service ending, a 'Heritage Flight' Concorde (which would almost certainly have been G-BOAG since it combined being the lowest of the BA fleet in hours and cycles, with completing a major maintenance input in late 2002 - the second from last one done), was that it was apparent that running this one non pax, subsonic only, air-show performer, would cost almost as much as running the whole fleet in a normal service.
And that was getting too expensive too.

Any new Concorde flying would have to re-build that whole support network, gone since 2003.
That's how the costs I gave above are estimated.
That's why it's not going to happen, less likely each passing year, even if the descendent manufactures and the airworthiness authorities agreed to allow it's Certificate Of Airworthiness back-and they won't.

These are the facts, not me being a party popper, based too on experiences on the fleet, including right up to the end.


User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (4 years 10 hours ago) and read 20058 times:

Quoting concorde007 (Thread starter):
I was just wondering how close some of the stored Concordes are to flight ready status. I know some are on static museum display, those werent the ones I was asking about.

Your question is flawed. There are no Concordes "stored". All the surviving aircraft are placed in museums or as outdoor static displays.



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6109 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (4 years 10 hours ago) and read 19994 times:

There are people who are trying to do it. The money would be available. However, Airbus is not committed, it appears they even have destroyed the maintenance books.

Considering it would be an airshow only, subsonic aircraft, I find it's for the better, Concorde should be supersonic or not be.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (4 years 10 hours ago) and read 19911 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 7):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 5):
It was done with the Vulcan. Concorde has a much bigger support base.

Not to be a grinch, but untrue on both counts.

   Excellent post. I miss Concorde, but it's past time for the fans to face reality. The only very distant and unlikely hope for revival would be something along the lines of the Tu-144LL, being used as a research platform (at a cost of some US$350 million). That project with the Tu-144 yielded the desired data...so what more could testing with a Concorde yield?



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7387 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (4 years 9 hours ago) and read 19752 times:
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Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 8):
Your question is flawed. There are no Concordes "stored". All the surviving aircraft are placed in museums or as outdoor static displays.

Not really. G-BOAB is stored, at LHR, not on display, no access to it.



Made from jets!
User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (4 years 8 hours ago) and read 19621 times:

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 11):
Quoting TeamAmerica (Reply 8):
Your question is flawed. There are no Concordes "stored". All the surviving aircraft are placed in museums or as outdoor static displays.

Not really. G-BOAB is stored, at LHR, not on display, no access to it

Let's clarify what we mean by "stored". I mean preserved, as we see with aircraft parked in the Arizona desert. Is G-BOAB anything other than an outdoor display? Every photo I've seen of it (spare results from the A.Net photo search) show a parked aircraft with no provisions for preservation in the sense I mean it. I recall there is a Concorde similarly parked at CDG...not stored, just waiting on a permanent placement for exhibit.



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlineTeamAmerica From United States of America, joined Sep 2006, 1761 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (4 years 8 hours ago) and read 19521 times:

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 11):
Not really. G-BOAB is stored, at LHR, not on display, no access to it

There is a concurrent thread on this very issue:
G-BOAB Any News?

G-BOAB is not "stored". It's a shell.  



Failure is not an option; it's an outcome.
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 39
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 hours ago) and read 19085 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 5):
It was done with the Vulcan. Concorde has a much bigger support base.

It could happen. But not anytime soon.

Forget it, won't happen - EVER.

GDB is pretty good when it comes to anything Concorde related. If he says it isn't going to happen, then believe him, because it won't. The closest to it is F-BTSD in France, but even so - the talk of that starting up caused an unholy riot on the ConcordeSST forums - with endless name calling and fights from the usual suspects (it looked really unprofessional).


User currently offlineirobertson From Canada, joined Apr 2006, 601 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 hours ago) and read 18827 times:

I think we'd have a higher chance of seeing a Convair 880 or 990 fly again. Or even a Delta L1011 sitting in the desert. It's terrible, it's sad, but she's gone. Like the passing of a loved one, there's sometimes just no bringing them back.

Maybe we should be looking to the future a bit more instead of dwelling and mourning the past.


User currently offlinePellegrine From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 2217 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 hours ago) and read 17401 times:

Quoting irobertson (Reply 15):
I think we'd have a higher chance of seeing a Convair 880 or 990 fly again.

I'd love to see a Convair 990 fly again, heck I'd even put some money up.    Didn't that thing have a cruise speed of like Mach 0.91??? Wonder how much it would take to make one of those babies flyable again...      



oh boy!!!
User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 680 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (4 years 1 hour ago) and read 16275 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 14):
The closest to it is F-BTSD in France, but even so - the talk of that starting up caused an unholy riot on the ConcordeSST forums - with endless name calling and fights from the usual suspects (it looked really unprofessional).

Interesting. Why?


User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3007 posts, RR: 48
Reply 18, posted (4 years ago) and read 15915 times:
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HEAD MODERATOR

So, if I understand the replies correctly, the 2 issues stopping Concorde from flying again (even only once, for an airshow) are the following:

- too expensive
- missing airworthiness certificate

Now, let's assume that a billionaire with an extravagant hobby comes up with the entire sum needed to do it, regardless of how high it is (short of starting a new project from scratch, obviously).

At this point, I assume that a temporary airworthiness certificate could be issued (just how it is done for homebuilt airplane kits). Would this be enough? Is *money* the key, or are there missing pieces that can't be "bought"?



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
User currently offlinegkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24815 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (4 years ago) and read 15847 times:

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 18):
Now, let's assume that a billionaire

And he'd need to be a billionnaire, I would imagine to get 1 Concorde flying again, you'd be looking at £700m quid to get if flyying and keep it flying. May as well buy a fleet of A350s or B787s



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineFlyWhisperjets From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 81 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (4 years ago) and read 15798 times:

IIRC Sir Richard Branson wanted to purchase some concordes from BA and they were not for sale.....I would like to see Boeing or Airbus build a new SST. With the technology gained since the Concorde's day, WOW what a jet that would be...


1st. time Eastern Lockheed L-188, 1st. jet Delta Convair 880
User currently offlineBeakerLTN From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2009, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (4 years ago) and read 15648 times:

Was it originally planned to have G-BOAB strung up in the main concourse of T5? - or did I just dream that?


300/319/320/321/330/732/733/734/73G/738/744/772/77W/146/EMB135/EMB145
User currently offlineEGTESkyGod From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1712 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (3 years 12 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13953 times:
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Quoting FlyWhisperjets (Reply 20):
IIRC Sir Richard Branson wanted to purchase some concordes from BA and they were not for sale...

This is something that brings a groan to everyone who ever had anything to do with Concorde. The Branson "offer" was a publicity stunt and Branson knew he would gain from doing so. The fact is the CAA would never have allowed Virgin to fly Concorde, Airbus would only ever maintain Concorde for the two airlines that had experience on the type due to the highly complex nature of the aircraft and Branson KNEW that BA would say no. Think about it if you are BA. Why would you give your flagship, your most highly valued aircraft, your most prestige customers, your most elite flying crew to your national rival who you are in direct competition with? It makes no sense.

If Branson was serious about getting hold of Concorde he would have approached Air France for theirs, the airframes had less hours on them, he wasn't in direct competition with Air France (unless he started flying from Paris), and he could have REALLY made a dent on BA's profits with Concorde. However the issues with the CAA and Airbus I mentioned before would still have been there hence Branson didn't follow up on the single "e-mail" he sent to AF regarding their Concordes. He KNEW BA would have to say no, he knew he would make BA look like the bad guys and look like they were grounding Concorde when in reality they had planned to fly them til 2008/09 themselves, the retirement came early because AF wanted out and so did Airbus. He knew that by publicly announcing he wanted to keep them flying he would look like a saviour and that BA would look like the evil ones for saying no. In reality if Branson had got hold of any Concorde (British or French) then all he could have realistically done is painted them in the Virgin Atlantic logo before sending it to the museum.



I came, I saw, I Concorde! RIP Michael Jackson
User currently offlinebwvilla From Germany, joined Jan 2008, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12518 times:

Quoting EGTESkyGod (Reply 22):
The Branson "offer" was a publicity stunt and Branson knew he would gain from doing so.

If I recall correctly, Branson offered one pound per aircraft and also said that he wanted to be given the slots. Was just an easy way of getting Virgin on the front pages of the newspapers and portraying himself as patriotic..



lhr-sin-bru-cgn-???
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 39
Reply 24, posted (3 years 12 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 12399 times:

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 17):

Interesting. Why?

Don't know to be honest. Especially since the fighting people are most definitely not 15 year old kids!

Otherwise - the F-BTSD plan to restart the plane into what seems to be taxi demonstrations will take a lot of money to achieve, and will need a huge commercial sponsor. It can certainly be done with the right sponsorship money.


25 Woof : True, but I believe the wording he used was along the lines of "we've offered to pay BA the original purchase price of each aircraft" - which sounds
26 fcogafa : I wish BA would have called Bransons bluff and said OK. It would have been great to see him squirm out of that one!
27 aircellist : Between whishing to wee Concorde flying again and whishing to see Montreal win the Stanley Cup again... Tough morning.
28 mirrodie : Concorde007, you're talking to one of the world's biggest Concorde lovers. I flew on it, was interviewed for a TV show about it, I own a pair of seat
29 Post contains links bwvilla : But he asked for the slots and other things to also be handed over to him for the seven quid he was offering, so I guess maybe he knew that that effe
30 Post contains links rfields5421 : There are some planes we will never see fly again - the Concorde is one, the CV-990 is another. I never got to see the Concorde and the only Convair
31 GDB : I will admit that while the reasons I and others above have given, to why a Concorde won't fly again are sound, for me, deep down, it was always about
32 Pellegrine : Never seen a CV-990 either, but I think in photos at least it was more beautiful than the 707 or DC-8. Oh well.
33 Post contains images TeamAmerica : All these aircraft have a similar planform, which lives on in the A340. If we want to discuss airliners that ought to be preserved as flying examples
34 fbgdavidson : The designing of T5 was well underway by the time the Concorde retirement announcement had been made. I think GDB understands the situation with Conc
35 Viscount724 : The latest Nimrod version, the MRA4, rebuilt from earlier models, hasn't even gone into service yet. Latest date mentioned is 2012 (almost a decade l
36 AirframeAS : I would really, really assume it is both, but it is more of the latter as one poster has already stated....... With this in mind, there is no point i
37 Eagleboy : I had perhaps dreamed the same thing. I had heard/rewad that the idea was to have the shell strung up so all BA pax had to walk under Concorde as the
38 cpd : Branson's bid was a disgusting PR stunt. There was no chance in the world for him to start up with it. No expertise at all in running it, for starters
39 Post contains images asgeirs : Wouldn't it be possible for a group of enthusiastic volunteers to get one Condorde into airworthy condition? And regarding the certification issues -
40 TeamAmerica : Thanks for this...somehow I thought the MRA4 had been cancelled entirely. Reading a bit, I see that the order was reduced to only 9 units, but it is
41 GDB : I too went to the last Farnborough, my first for many years, in part to see the Vulcan. Those running it were saved by a large single donation in 200
42 Aesma : Well, a sponsor for that kind of thing is not really easy to find.
43 Post contains images MSY772LR : I'm curious as to what became of the notion to roll out F-BTSD, start up two engines, and allow her to taxi? It was last being reported (most prominen
44 exFWAOONW : I recall reading the same reasoning and excuses over on the railroad forums about steam locomotives, and yet there is an A3 Tornado steaming down the
45 tdscanuck : Locomotives don't have to be certified, and they cost an order of magnitude less to purchase, operate, and maintain than aircraft. Tom.
46 cpd : Oh, but that are just as political however - which is a lot of the difficulty. Some of those preservation groups act like little children - and when
47 exFWAOONW : Uh, last time I checked, a steam locomotive had a boiler (pressure vessel) that requires all kinds of certifications and tests before it can be used.
48 tdscanuck : "Certification" in the pressure vessel context is a very different thing than "certification" in the airplane sense. Tom.
49 EGTESkyGod : Absolutely correct. And you cannot compare a steam locomotive with a unique Supersonic Airliner that was so specialised.
50 Post contains images MadameConcorde : I just got back from Argentina, had no computer on hand during all the time I was gone with no chance of seeing this thread. As things are now I don't
51 SEPilot : Some people are very good at spending other people's money. Corporations are viewed as having large amounts of money to throw around, but they really
52 cpd : Yet they can give a CEO an $80,000,000 golden handshake (the total value of the package). That's quite obscene. Some corporations do sponsor plane re
53 BA174 : SD is not that near airworthy. It still has it's fluids etc but a lot would need to be done. G-BOAF/C are probably the two BA birds nearest to airwor
54 Post contains images MYT332 : Tornado is technically a new build Peppercorn A1 Pacific. The Flying Scotsman is a Gresley A3 Pacific but is being overhauld at the moment. Well not
55 Post contains links and images MadameConcorde : British Airways has retained ownership of all the decommissioned Concordes that were sent to Filton and to the different museums after they were reti
56 mirrodie : Sounds like this would be one of the better kept Concordes to see. I just perused a relatively new book on Concorde by Jonathan Falconer. While it ha
57 tdscanuck : Yes, really. I'm not really sure how to easily explain this if you don't already have a background in both pressure vessel construction and aircraft
58 Post contains images MadameConcorde : Most unfortunately, "Last to Fly" Air France Concorde F-BVFC is suffering from corrosion. The Concordes that are being kept outside have much less ch
59 mirrodie : So in your opinion, what are the top 3-best preserved Concordes? Ah, I finally recall what I forgot to originally post. In Falconer's book, I remember
60 BA174 : G-BOAA- in a new hanger at east fortune and has a great internal/external tour. Has the BA 1992-2000 concorde seats G-BOAC- Manchester, has a brand n
61 ClassicLover : When we went the starboard side cockpit window had shattered and was an opaque glass smashed panel. They did say they were getting it replaced. Appar
62 MadameConcorde : I would think it is F-BVFA at the NASM Udvar Hazy Center near Dulles Airport. She is clean as anything and she is the superstar in the whole place. I
63 mirrodie : From what I recall reading, it was from water getting in there and freezing. I've love to see that happen.
64 BA174 : I would stick with my origional list of G-BOAA/C/F with SD in France. I am not a fan of the two "on legs" AF concordes I have to admit.
65 MadameConcorde : I can only agree with you. Turning two Concordes into statues was not the best idea - that and the fact that corrosion will take its toll. I hope the
66 BA174 : I think that would be up to AF to take them down.
67 Post contains images MadameConcorde : The Concorde at Sinsheim was given to Germany for the symbolic Franc. They felt obligated to this after the F-BTSC crash. The crashed Concorde was ch
68 sovietjet : The only reason I see it being possible is that NASA and Tupolev restored and flew a Tu-144 back in the mid 90s. By then the Tu-144 hadn't flown for a
69 HT : Hmm, maybe someone could talk Mr. Mateschitz into this ... ?! Those a/c he has flying "Flying Bulls" do exactly what was mentioned above. -HT
70 BA174 : I have never really been impressed with the two BA concordes in the US. For some reason they have blocked the seats of with plastic. The G-BOAE hanger
71 tdscanuck : It's because they don't want people sitting in the seats. It blocks the thing up and degrades the artifact. Tom.
72 GDB : As someone who was on G-BOAE's last flight, to retirement in BGI, that's good to hear, I've heard others comment positively on it too. A relief, we d
73 mirrodie : True. There is a great preserved Concorde replica at the Cradle of Aviation Museum in Long Island. It was the one that was poised over Times Square B
74 BA174 : The G-BOAE hanger in BGI looks fantastic. Yes at booklands, Manchester, Filton and Barbados the visitors can it in the seats and often watch a DVD sbo
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