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British Caledonian, How Was It Before It Was Taken Over?  
User currently offlineB-HOP From Hong Kong, joined Nov 2000, 623 posts, RR: 1
Posted (4 years 3 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11023 times:

When Caledonian failed, they were a medium sized player in Gatwick, how were they before they failed? If it is still around today, what you think it would like?


Kev


Live life to max!!!
57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2960 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (4 years 3 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10976 times:
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British Caledonian DID NOT FAIL they were in merger talks with SAS but at the time the ownership limitation remained in force within the EU .

BA however offered a good price to buy out airline giving greater access to Gatwick slots but subject to some limitations and routes being relinquished.

Interestingly these included BCAL feeder routes within the UK .

Scottish routes went to Air UK and Manchester to Dan- Air.

When Dan-Air were on the verge of collapse just few seasons later the Manchester- Gatwick route was recovered and Scottish routes were to return as KLM focused Air UK/KLM UK of feeding Amsterdam rather than Gatwick.


User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4116 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 3 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10962 times:

It was a fine airline before the BA took it over and dismantled it for less competition. Actually British Caledonian was its only real competition at the time, BA I mean.

[Edited 2010-04-24 05:04:31]


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 10879 times:

They were a very good airline and a pioneer in terms of service but BA and successive governments kept them into very limited markets which made them very vulnerable in the mid 1980s. They lucrative route to Libya was stopped in 1984 after the shooting of WPC Yvonne Fletcher, their Nigerian routes, very much the jewel in the crown were hit by the collapse of the Naira in 1986 and at the same time, the transatlantic routes were suffering due to Chernobyl and the threat of Libyan terrorism. From 1986-1987 they were trying to find a merger partner and had a number of offers including British Midland, UTA, Sabena, Air Europe but ultimately BA gave the shareholders the best price.

User currently offlineB-HOP From Hong Kong, joined Nov 2000, 623 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10736 times:

I rememeber their 747 in HK, locally they were known as 'gold lion's, would you see BD going the same way? Or wuld you see their L/H is around today, their L/H operation would be as big as VS in LGW.


Kev



Live life to max!!!
User currently offlineEDICHC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10711 times:

B-Cal were a great carrier. But a number of factors led to them becoming very vulnerable to take over bids. Much stricter government regulation saw B-Cal left with very restricted markets. There was a huge degree of government protectionism towards BA in the early 80s as the Thatcher government wanted to see nothing harm their plans for BA's privatisation.

This left B-Cal with very vulnerable long haul routes. The Falklands war was also a factor as B-Cal had sizeable operations to S America until then. As posted above the Tripoli route disappeared after the murder of WPC Fletcher.

B-Cal were also known as 'The Oil Man's airline' given the markets it served. The oil industry was probably the biggest source of premium revenue to B-Cal. I guess it is safe to say that a medium sized carrier like B-Cal just was not big enough to absorb the varying levels of business from the Oil Execs during a volatile time in the industry.


User currently offlineskymiler From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 522 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 10708 times:

Flew them a few times in the 70's and loved them! Will never forget the sight of the Rock of Gibralter from a BAC 1-11 on my way from LGW to Casablanca!

IIRC they also flew DC-10's in a stunning livery to DFW, JFK and other cities in the US.

A VERY classy outfit -- and great tartan uniforms!



I love to fly, and it shows!
User currently offlinevv701 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2005, 7383 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 10479 times:

Quoting EDICHC (Reply 5):
There was a huge degree of government protectionism towards BA in the early 80s as the Thatcher government wanted to see nothing harm their plans for BA's privatisation.

There was huge government protectionism of BA but in the 1970s and not the 1980s. Everything changed in July 1979 when the (new) Thatcher government published a totally revised civil aviation policy based on competition instead of protectionism.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24804 posts, RR: 46
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10395 times:

For anyone intreseted in BCal I highly recommend the book High Risk - The Politics of the Air by BCal's long time chairman Adam Thomson. Its a bit old now, but well worth a read.
It has lots of insight and details of events inside from BCal since the 1970s including battles for route rights, acquiring widebodies, attempted merger with SAS, and the final BA deal.

In summary in the book Mr. Thomson's makes clear in the book, BCal always stuck as a 2nd class airline much thanks to repeated UK government actions, and struggled to gain a proper footing due to what he feels was improper competitive landscape in the country. BCal always had to fight the government owned(and favored) BA, difficultly in acquiring enough foreign route rights or frequencies especially to the US and Europe, and was hobbled by being stuck at LGW while much of the worlds premium traffic and connections preferred LHR.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10393 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 1):
British Caledonian DID NOT FAIL they were in merger talks with SAS but at the time the ownership limitation remained in force within the EU .

Could you further explain the statement above considering?

1. British Caledonian was shut down in 1988.

2. The EU was not formed until 1993 (Maastricht Treaty).


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8785 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10341 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):

2. The EU was not formed until 1993 (Maastricht Treaty).

I believed he meant the EEC which was the predecessor to the EU



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineadg737800 From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2008, 62 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10276 times:

Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):
Could you further explain the statement above considering?

1. British Caledonian was shut down in 1988.

2. The EU was not formed until 1993 (Maastricht Treaty).

1. BCal was acquired by BA in 1988 after 3i (a major shareholder in BCal) and a few other major shareholders accepted BA's final offer, forcing the hands of the remaining shareholders. There were talks with SAS but the concept of foreign ownership of a British airline became a huge political football (oh how times have changed!!!!). BCal didn't shut down, the assets, licences (except those that were passed to other airlines by the MMC of course on competition grounds) and staff transferred to BA.

2. No EU but there was the EEC/EC. I think the poster was commenting on the fact then that there wasn't the lax controls on foreign ownership of European airlines as there is today thanks to the single aviation market allowed by EU legislation.



Next flights: LCY-EDI-LCY (BA Cityflyer)
User currently onlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2960 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 10197 times:
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Quoting adg737800 (Reply 11):
. No EU but there was the EEC/EC. I think the poster was commenting on the fact then that there wasn't the lax controls on foreign ownership of European airlines as there is today thanks to the single aviation market allowed by EU legislation.

Thats correct the legal framework that formed what we now call the EU already existed in several earlier treaties however thats for another place .


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8541 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 1 day ago) and read 9690 times:
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Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):
1. British Caledonian was shut down in 1988.

BCal did not shut down in 1988 , it was taken over by BA . Would you consider it truthful to say NW was shutdown last year ? or Western was shut down in 1986 , or National was shut down in 1979 ?

[Edited 2010-04-24 13:48:44 by srbmod]


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26845 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 1 day ago) and read 9643 times:

Sadly I never got to fly them but I will always remember them for their Adverts :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8q9zOUMdtg


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2686 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 23 hours ago) and read 9543 times:

Quoting B-HOP (Thread starter):
how were they before they failed?

Loud! Every day at about 5 pm one of their Bac 1-11 flew directly over our house.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Aris Pappas


Surely a reason why my wife keeps on saying "why can't you listen!"  
But once we were lucky and they brought their A 310 to FRA:

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Photo © Hans Resch



User currently offline474218 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6340 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 23 hours ago) and read 9542 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 13):
BCal did not shut down in 1988 , it was taken over by BA . Would you consider it truthful to say NW was shutdown last year ? or Western was shut down in 1986 , or National was shut down in 1979 ?

Yes!

In 1988 British Airways renamed their British Air Tours subsidiary Caledonian and British Caledonian cessed to exist.


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8541 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 23 hours ago) and read 9531 times:
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Quoting 474218 (Reply 16):
British Caledonian cessed [sic] to exist.

Yes , they ceased to exist ... because they merged into BA , but they were not "shut down" which is what you claimed in your previous post .

Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):
1. British Caledonian was shut down in 1988.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26845 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 23 hours ago) and read 9479 times:

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 15):
But once we were lucky and they brought their A 310 to FRA

What happened to their A310's after they merged with BA?


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8541 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 23 hours ago) and read 9460 times:
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Quoting oa260 (Reply 18):
What happened to their A310's after they merged with BA?

At one point I think the A310s ( or at least some of them ) were wet-leased to Libyan Arab Airlines . Sadly we no longer have Trevor to help us out with BCal questions , but I thought that A310s had been completely withdrawn from BCal use prior to the merger ( of course I could be wrong , wouldn't be the first or last time ) .


Edited to add

http://www.planespotters.net/Product...95,TS-IGU-Libyan-Arab-Airlines.php

c/n 295 appears to have left BCal in 1986 and spent most of the last 24 years with Libyan Arab Airlines
c/n 306 appears to have done the same .

I thought that they had 3 A310s but I can only find two in the photo database


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Photo © Tim Rees
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Photo © Bill Sheridan



[Edited 2010-04-24 14:18:31]


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineshamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 4158 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 23 hours ago) and read 9449 times:

Quoting oa260 (Reply 18):
What happened to their A310's after they merged with BA?

Good question actually. I had thought that some of the Canadian charter carriers may have taken them up, but I may be wrong??

I fondly remember the DC-10's though, they were frequent vistors to Shannon for crew training purposes when I was a young lad, along with KLM 747's, SAS DC-10's, BA and AF concordes, and a myriad of less frequent vistors.

It was unfortunate to see the decline of the BCAL brand, as it was progressivly dumbed down to a holiday operator with a cheap looking livery, and eventually phased out altogether.



Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
User currently offlineoa260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26845 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 23 hours ago) and read 9441 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 19):
Sadly we no longer have Trevor to help us out with BCal questions

Yes indeed When we talk about Bcal we will remember him also.


User currently offlineType-Rated From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 4940 posts, RR: 19
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 23 hours ago) and read 9374 times:

I flew BCal IAH-LGW and back in 81'. They were a nice airline. In Houston, I actually became great friends with a couple of their F/A's who liked to party. They mentioned that the tartan that they wore was for each female F/A. Sometimes the match didn't work. They had one F/A friend of theirs who had hair that was very bright ginger, and they gave her an orange tartan.
Coming down the aisle, she was quite the sight!
They flew DC-10's from ATL, DFW & IAH.



Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
User currently onlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2960 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 22 hours ago) and read 9310 times:
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Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 19):

Quoting oa260 (Reply 18):
What happened to their A310's after they merged with BA?

At one point I think the A310s ( or at least some of them ) were wet-leased to Libyan Arab Airlines . Sadly we no longer have Trevor to help us out with BCal questions , but I thought that A310s had been completely withdrawn from BCal use prior to the merger ( of course I could be wrong , wouldn't be the first or last time ) .


Edited to add

http://www.planespotters.net/Product...95,TS-IGU-Libyan-Arab-Airlines.php

c/n 295 appears to have left BCal in 1986 and spent most of the last 24 years with Libyan Arab Airlines
c/n 306 appears to have done the same .

I thought that they had 3 A310s but I can only find two in the photo database


Three ordered only two delivered .

They did indeed make their way to Libyan Arab via Algeria busting sanctions !

They were given Libyan serials however due to sanctions they were officially registered to Air Algerie with Algerian registrations for much of their life


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Photo © Jc.n

G-BKWT would be 5A-DLA


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Photo © LHR Photos

G-BKWU would be 5A-DLB


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8541 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 22 hours ago) and read 9301 times:
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Quoting rutankrd (Reply 23):
Three ordered only two delivered .

Thanks for clearing that up for me , it is a relief to know that I didn't just dream up three for no good reason 



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
25 FlyCaledonian : And this was one of the things that started to hinder BCal in the 1980s. Under previous Government policy it had not been able to develop as a true s
26 26point2 : Sorry, don't remember the quality of service but... KOAK (Oakland, California)-EGKK (Gatwick, UK) on a Caledonian 707 was one of my earliest memories
27 EDICHC : Absolute nonsense! Although not connected with B_Cal, Margaret Thatcher personally intervened to protect BA from prosecution in the US under anti-tru
28 dswilliams64d : On the business side I can't remember but I will say I flew on BCal in '84 to London on one of their DC-10's and it was by far the best service on a t
29 alangirvan : These were some of the earliest A310s ever delivered - Swissair, Lufthansa and KLM were the other early customers. A BCal A310 was used to give a bri
30 B-HOP : Apart from flying operation, do they have other concerns in Gatwick, such as catering and engineering? Would you think if any of their L/H were from M
31 scarebus03 : BCAL were a brilliant airline to fly with. I flew with them several times LGW-LOS-LGW in the mid '80s on both DC-10's and the 747. Of all the airlines
32 Post contains links oa260 : They certainly had an interesting route network. http://airchive.com/html/timetable-a...eland/british-caledonian-1981/7288 http://airchive.com/html/ti
33 vv701 : Absolute nonsense? Certainly not. You need to recognise that the commercial aviation relationship between the UK and the USA was controlled by the Be
34 Andz : DC-10? A310? 747? I remember Caledonian in the OLD days.... I flew them only twice, in July 1971 (Caledonian/BUA) and February 1973. London-Lusaka and
35 Viscount724 : Not quite that OLD, but I flew B.Cal LAX-LGW-LAX on 707s a couple of months after they began service on that route, probably around 1976. Service was
36 david_itl : They did operate a 4 weekly LGW-MAN-JFK service in 1973 using 707s. but it didn't work out and a 2 daily LGW-MAN service was introduced.
37 rutankrd : If memory serves the LGW-MAN link operated with a BIA Herald for some time and even going on to the Isle of Man and yes Blackpool under UK flight num
38 Post contains images Argonaut : Actually, they were a large player at Gatwick...not medium at all. It's touching how much faith some of us seem to have in the squeaky-cleanliness of
39 EDICHC : I quoted that as example of just how far the Thatcher government was prepared to go to protect BA's interests on the run up to privatisation, it was
40 vv701 : Oh! Yes. Of course! Sorry. That must be why in 1981, less than two years after Thatcher became Prime Minister, BD obtained authority to operate betwe
41 Post contains images Argonaut : Oh, of course! Sorry! Of course! But horribly wrong. British Eagle, 1963. Same routes. Look it up. After the sale of British Airways. The coast was c
42 Edina : IIRC the SN codeshare operation was to ATL.....
43 davehammer : BCAL was also hindered by BAA's (in their infinite wisdom) decision to put the North Terminal in the best location for a 2nd runway at LGW and signing
44 babybus : We forget there was a lot of money sloshing around in the 80s. Any airline could be a good airline.The only way to control the market was by buying up
45 diesel1 : Some good memories of a BCal flight to Ibiza back in the 1972 - would have been a 1-11. I recall getting to visit the flightdeck together with my brot
46 pinhammond : BCAL lost £100 million in the 2.5 years up to Aug 1987. To continue it had to sell all its non airline subsidiaries (Hotels, Caledonian Airmotive, Bl
47 GDB : EDHIC, like the conspiracy theories don't you? (If aimed at BA). Not conspiracy, not anything to do with SDI (huh?), just politics as normal. Quite ri
48 vv701 : After? Actual Time Line: 1. BD receives route approval to operate LHR-EDI and LHR-GLA 1981, 5 years plus BEFORE privatisation of BA. 2. First LON-NYC
49 jfk777 : British Caledonian was a very classy operation long before BA was such. IT had to fight for every inch it got, especially to teh USA. IT initially got
50 AirbusA6 : "I wish they all could be Caledonian Girls..." Hasn't LGW beena bit of an airline graveyard, for full fare airlines trying to compete with BA from the
51 offloaded : Ah yes, the LHR LGW airlink with an S76. Wasn't that closed down because the new high speed road link, the M25, was completed around then? IIRC, the m
52 KimberlyRJ : I remember flying from LAX to LGW (and back) and I loved it! The uniforms were great and the cabin crew gave such good service I can still remember it
53 GDB : BA got away with what back then? HM Government policy was the driving factor. What about the ex BCAL employees who went to work for BA after 1988, so
54 Argonaut : Correct...my apologies. rj
55 Post contains images Edina : 2 points here............. - CKT i.e. Caledonian Airways were never the same airline (covered many times here on Anet already); they were merely a re
56 Post contains images leezyjet : They were until Inspirations IIRC took them over and ran them into the ground !!. Using those ex- Air Ops L10-11's on the flight only routes also att
57 dstc47 : "Ah yes, the LHR LGW airlink with an S76. Wasn't that closed down because the new high speed road link, the M25, was completed around then? " IAn S61
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