Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Regional/Feeder Fleet Of Combined CO/UA?  
User currently offlineCrosscheck007 From Poland, joined Jan 2010, 278 posts, RR: 2
Posted (4 years 5 months 4 hours ago) and read 4091 times:

Since everyone and their cousin are creating threads addressing each and every potential outcome of the (potential) CO/UA merger, I feel it is high time to address this concern: What will the consolidated regional fleet look like? During the merger will they outright purchase any of the major/minor regional carriers to bring regional flying in-house (what appears to be the new trend in the industry). Any thoughts?

Cheers,

007

[Edited 2010-04-24 08:48:08]


Je l'attends pas un homme. J'apporte le parti, j'apporte le feu d'artifice.
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 3935 times:

Continental Express:
214 ERJ-145 Expressjet
20 ERJ-145 Chautauqua

Continental Connection:
16 Q-200 Commutair
14 Q-400 Colgan (+15 orders)
10 Saab 340 Colgan
54(?) C-402 Cape Air
2 ATR-42 Cape Air Guam
21 B-1900 Gulfstream


United Express:
14 CRJ-200 ASA
7 Saab 340 Colgan
22 ERJ- 145 Expressjet (32 after May)
25 CRJ700 GoJet
20 CRJ700 Mesa
37 E170 Shuttle America
29 E120 Skywest (parking?)
65 CRJ 200 Skywest
65 CRJ700 Skywest
20 ERJ-145 Trans States


I think when all is said and done the only players left will be:

Expressjet
Skywest/ASA
Colgan
Cape Air
GoJet
TSA (possibly with their 50+50 MRJ orders)

[Edited 2010-04-24 10:31:29]

[Edited 2010-04-24 10:32:02]

[Edited 2010-04-24 10:32:30]


These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 3921 times:

All depends on whether the CO or UA scope clause prevails. CO's = goodbye 70 seat jets.

[Edited 2010-04-24 10:33:54]

User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 3862 times:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 2):
All depends on whether the CO or UA scope clause prevails. CO's = goodbye 70 seat jets.

Good point. I dont know specifics of UA scope clause, but could they re-negotiate a scope clause for the new carrier limiting regional aircraft at 70seats? (goodbye CRJ900s and E170s)



These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
User currently offlinescorpy From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 400 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (4 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 3835 times:

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 3):
Good point. I dont know specifics of UA scope clause, but could they re-negotiate a scope clause for the new carrier limiting regional aircraft at 70seats? (goodbye CRJ900s and E170s)

UA don't have any 900's and their E-170s only seat 70 because of FC and E+.


User currently offlinemtnwest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2458 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (4 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 3819 times:

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 1):
Continental Connection:
Quoting flyby519 (Reply 1):
54(?) C-402 Cape Air

Only the Micronesia servcie is flown under CO Connection. No 402 routes are anymore, if I decipher CO's route map correctly.



"If it ain't broke, don't fix it!"
User currently offlineflyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 1147 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 3819 times:

Quoting scorpy (Reply 4):
UA don't have any 900's and their E-170s only seat 70 because of FC and E+.

AH right, I dont know why I thought they had some 900s flying around. The E-170s are certified with 76 seats, so that would limit them in a scope clause. If the scope clause only limits by the number of seats actually being used on the airplane we could have Gojets flying 757s with 30seats, not good!



These postings or comments are not a company-sponsored source of communication.
User currently offlinenws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 897 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 3783 times:

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 5):
Only the Micronesia servcie is flown under CO Connection. No 402 routes are anymore, if I decipher CO's route map correctly.

I believe that's correct. We interline with Cape Air on the C402 routes, but I think we only codeshare on the Caribbean routes.


User currently onlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2760 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (4 years 5 months 2 hours ago) and read 3749 times:

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 2):
All depends on whether the CO or UA scope clause prevails. CO's = goodbye 70 seat jets.

I doubt the 70 seat aircraft would completely disappear. The airlines operating them have legally binding contracts, and unless management at the regional is monumentally stupid, there's some sort of clause guaranteeing the contract in the event of mergers and acquisitions involving the legacy carrier. It could easily see the number of jets over 50 seats being capped at the current number, but I can't imagine them completely disappearing.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlinepilotpip From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3150 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3511 times:

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 6):

AH right, I dont know why I thought they had some 900s flying around. The E-170s are certified with 76 seats, so that would limit them in a scope clause. If the scope clause only limits by the number of seats actually being used on the airplane we could have Gojets flying 757s with 30seats, not good!

The 170s are certified to 76 seats. Our agreement is to fly them with 70 seats. While we were getting new aircraft a few years ago we "borrowed" 822MD from Republic, with 76 seats in single class. It could only be used as a DL codeshare bird.

If there were to be a merger there wouldn't be a cancellation of any contracts based on scope. This is one of the reasons you still see CHQ flying aircraft in AA colors.

The combined effort wouldn't be able to limit the scope back to 50 seats, unfortunately (and I fly a 70 seater). Once it's given up, it's gone.

[Edited 2010-04-24 15:54:18]


DMI
User currently offlineThePinnacleKid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 725 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3363 times:

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 9):
The combined effort wouldn't be able to limit the scope back to 50 seats, unfortunately (and I fly a 70 seater). Once it's given up, it's gone.

It really is amazing how if you actually ask most of us RJ drivers... we wish that our mainline brothers/sisters would never have given up scope... it has really led to the detriment of a lot of things in the industry.. both for customers and our airline professions... rampers, flight attendants, pilots... everyone involved. Too bad the cat is out of the bag and I don't really see a way to get it back. It would take a visionary CEO that realizes the value of once again having everything in house. With the current CEO revolving doors and "good ol' boys" network.. it's something we'll never likely see.



"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
User currently offlineFlyDreamliner From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2759 posts, RR: 15
Reply 11, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3161 times:

To some extent, isn't that what AA has with Eagle in-house?

There are good and bad regionals, obvious more bad - but I'll agree, the system is not stacked in a good way - regionals competing on price for contracts that come and go leads to a lot of corners getting cut.



"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
User currently offlineThePinnacleKid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 725 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3151 times:

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 11):
To some extent, isn't that what AA has with Eagle in-house?

AA and AE have a strange relationship compared to most "in-house" arrangements.... They are both actually separate entities and owned under the same corporate umbrella AMR. So more or less Eagle and American are sister companies that just happen to "compliment" each other....

That said, yes, by keeping it in the corporate umbrella they are able to keep the product to a similar standard; but it still would be better to just have 1 company, single management teams, single labor groups and support staff



"Sonny, did we land? or were we shot down?"
User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3753 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3132 times:

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 1):
Continental Express:
214 ERJ-145 Expressjet
20 ERJ-145 Chautauqua

Continental Connection:
16 Q-200 Commutair
14 Q-400 Colgan (+15 orders)
10 Saab 340 Colgan
54(?) C-402 Cape Air
2 ATR-42 Cape Air Guam
21 B-1900 Gulfstream


United Express:
14 CRJ-200 ASA
7 Saab 340 Colgan
22 ERJ- 145 Expressjet (32 after May)
25 CRJ700 GoJet
20 CRJ700 Mesa
37 E170 Shuttle America
29 E120 Skywest (parking?)
65 CRJ 200 Skywest
65 CRJ700 Skywest
20 ERJ-145 Trans States

One minor error: ASA will have 20 CR2s for UAX by year's end.

That being said, after all is done, I see five regionals for "Uninental":

Pinnacle Airlines Holdings (Colgan): 7+10 SAAB 340+29 Q400=46 frames. Maybe more Q400s if pilots can agree, and 9E could enter the mix for more 70-seat RJ flying.
ExpressJet: 214+32=246 ERJ-145s. Not going anywhere.
SkyWest Holdings (OO, EV): 65+20 CR2, 65 CR7=150 frames. EMB-120s would be parked, but not going anywhere.
Trans States Holdings (Trans States/GoJet): 20 ER4, 25 CR7=45 frames. Possibly MRJs in the future, for room to grow.
CommutAir: 16 Q200s and possibly growing. Planes move from CLE/EWR to West Coast to fill in for EMB-120s.
Total of 502 frames staying (84% of combined Uninental regional fleet), IMO

Gone might be:

Republic Airways Holdings (RP, S5): 20 ER4s and 37 E170s gone due to rivalry with Republic-owned F9 in DEN. UA could transfer E170s to themselves to avoid future F9 growth.
Mesa Air Group (YV): 20 CRJ-700s. If Tilton hates YV's on-time performance, Smisek would be furious.
Gulfstream International Airlines: As goes the CLE hub, so go the 21 B1900s.
Total frames gone: 98 (16% of Uninental regional fleet)



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlinetlhgator From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3095 times:

Quoting ThePinnacleKid (Reply 12):
Gulfstream International Airlines: As goes the CLE hub, so go the 21 B1900s.

While the B1900s might be out of CLE, they still serve a purpose in Florida, for the intra state flying as well as to the Bahamas from MIA/FLL all under the CO banner


User currently offlineTOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3292 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3084 times:

Scope and the regionals may turn out to be the deal breaker. I doubt the CO pilots will give up on the 50 seat limit. The UA group may actually join CO because it gives them a way to claw back on scope. But I don't know how expensive it would be for the combined carrier to break contracts for any 50+ seat jet flying. The cost may be prohibitive.

User currently offlinejolau1701 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2923 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 13):
SkyWest Holdings (OO, EV): 65+20 CR2, 65 CR7=150 frames. EMB-120s would be parked, but not going anywhere.
CommutAir: 16 Q200s and possibly growing. Planes move from CLE/EWR to West Coast to fill in for EMB-120s.

I'm not sure if this wil be the case for OO's EMB120s mainly because of SkyWest's Pro-Rate flying for UAX. Additionally, OO pretty much dominates UAX flying west of DEN in an area where CO has mostly mainline presence. If CommutAir moves westwards with thier Q200s, it's going to have to be either routes that OO isn't flying pro-rate or the Q200's are going to have to be given to OO somehow.


User currently offlineFL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1541 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2872 times:

There are a lot of incorrect numbers here. Here is the UAX fleet by the end of the year as far as I can tell:

S5 38 E70s
OO 70 CR7s, 81-83 CR2s (65 are contract), 30 EM2s (9 are contract)
YV 20 CR7s
GJ 25 CR7s
XE 32 ER4s (10 are used for summer only)
AX 24 ER4s
EV 14 CR2s
I don't know Colgan but that's pro-rate anyways

CO:

XE 206 ER4s
RP 15 ER4s
9L 14 DH4s with 6 delivered by year end
16 Commutair DH2s

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 13):
One minor error: ASA will have 20 CR2s for UAX by year's end.

Where did you see/hear that?



717,72S,732/3/4/5/G/8/9,744,752/3,763/4,772/3,D9S/5,M8/90,D10,319/20/21,332/3,388,CR2/7/9,EM2,ER4,E70/75/90,SF3,AR8
User currently offlinenws2002 From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 897 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2834 times:

Quoting pilotpip (Reply 9):
The combined effort wouldn't be able to limit the scope back to 50 seats

Why not? The pilots and company could agree to bring

Quoting TOLtommy (Reply 15):
Scope and the regionals may turn out to be the deal breaker. I doubt the CO pilots will give up on the 50 seat limit. The UA group may actually join CO because it gives them a way to claw back on scope. But I don't know how expensive it would be for the combined carrier to break contracts for any 50+ seat jet flying. The cost may be prohibitive.

Could they agree to allow an expanded scope until the current contracts expire? After that anything over 50 seats must be mainline, and during the grandfathered period management wouldn't be allowed to sign any new contracts with regionals for more than 50 seats.


User currently offlineJBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2343 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2785 times:

My take on the regional breakdown:

SkyWest and ASA aren't going anywhere. SkyWest is too large a part of the United Express network to be cut or even reduced.

The same goes for ExpressJet with Continental.

Cape Air's Guam operation will be kept.

Colgan's pro-rate flying may likely be cut (the Saabs = gone), but the contract flying with the Q400s will most likely stay.

Republic: The 50-seat flying with Chautauqua may be cut, but the E170s with Shuttle America will most likely stay. In spite of what many here believe United's opinions about the Republic/Frontier situation to be, I think UA/CO may continue their relationship with Republic simply because a healthy Frontier is that much more competition for Southwest. If UA/CO cuts off Republic to avoid "helping" Frontier, it could potentially open the door to more direct competition with Southwest.

It's not unlike Northwest partnering with Midwest to help protect MKE.

CommutAir: There isn't really anyone else to replace the 30-seat lift out of CLE, and I doubt they would distribute SkyWest Brasilias out east. CommutAir will most likely stay.

Mesa: I think everyone here would like to see Mesa get cut just because it's Mesa. I think whether or not Mesa stays depends on how much need there is for CR7 equipment and whether or not it will all be handled by OO, or if either Mesa or GoJet are kept for the additional lift.

GoJet: Either GoJet or Mesa are cut.

Trans States: Could also very well be cut on account of having so much 50-seat lift already.

Gulfstream: May see some service reduced, but won't be elimiated entirely. 3M serves a niche in Florida that is not likely to be cut.



I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
User currently offlinedeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9425 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2692 times:

Quoting flyby519 (Reply 6):
AH right, I dont know why I thought they had some 900s flying around. The E-170s are certified with 76 seats, so that would limit them in a scope clause. If the scope clause only limits by the number of seats actually being used on the airplane we could have Gojets flying 757s with 30seats, not good!

No, they have a max aircraft wieght(I don't know 100% about UAs of it may be MTOW like Delta or it may be something else)

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 8):
I doubt the 70 seat aircraft would completely disappear. The airlines operating them have legally binding contracts, and unless management at the regional is monumentally stupid, there's some sort of clause guaranteeing the contract in the event of mergers and acquisitions involving the legacy carrier. It could easily see the number of jets over 50 seats being capped at the current number, but I can't imagine them completely disappearing.

Doesn't work that way. If they end up with CALPAs scope then thats it, thats the end of the above 50 seat jets. They will pull the contracts, no way around that.



yep.
User currently offlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 23021 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2674 times:

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 20):
No, they have a max aircraft wieght(I don't know 100% about UAs of it may be MTOW like Delta or it may be something else)

It's seats plus MTOW, but it's only 16 frames that may go up to that limit. Other than that, they are to CR7/E70-sized aircraft.

Edited to add: also, only ZW may operate the larger aircraft.

[Edited 2010-04-25 15:16:12]


I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineManuCH From Switzerland, joined Jun 2005, 3011 posts, RR: 46
Reply 22, posted (4 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2499 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

There is now an official thread to discuss this. Please continue discussion there:

Possible UA/CO Merger: Impact On Fleets & Routes (by Moderators Apr 25 2010 in Civil Aviation)

This thread will now be locked.

Any additional posts that are made to this thread after this post will be removed for housekeeping purposes, as this may happen due to a short system lag.



Never trust a statistic you didn't fake yourself
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
CO-UA Merger--Fleet Outcome posted Thu Feb 7 2008 08:13:20 by CB777
Possibility Of CO/UA Codeshareing Soon posted Sat Jan 13 2007 20:48:08 by LAXdude1023
Hubs, Focus Cities, And Fleet Of A Merged DL/CO posted Sun Jul 30 2006 19:34:51 by 1337Delta764
CO/UA Livery Post Merger? posted Fri Apr 23 2010 06:51:27 by cb777
Why All Of Sudden CO Down To 1X DSM? posted Mon Mar 15 2010 10:57:26 by evanbu
CO V. UA J Seat--Same Seat? posted Wed Feb 17 2010 19:48:50 by rjpieces
CO/UA Venture In Jeopardy? posted Wed Feb 10 2010 09:24:04 by apodino
OAG Changes 1/22/2010: AA/AM/CO/UA/US posted Wed Jan 20 2010 10:03:59 by Enilria
CO-UA-ANA Anti-trust For Pacific posted Wed Dec 23 2009 16:49:56 by Globaldude
CO/UA To Offer Reciprocal Domestic Upgrades posted Tue Nov 17 2009 08:02:29 by United1