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European Airline Ops To The Caribbean  
User currently offlinewill777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 174 posts, RR: 0
Posted (4 years 4 months 2 hours ago) and read 5840 times:

Seeing all of these pictures from SXM of AF, KL, and Corsair planes landing, and knowing that BA sends large wide bodies to various islands in the caribbean, and looking earlier and seeing a China Airlines 744 in Costa Rica (not sure if this is still an existing service), and just being on flight aware and seeing that AF sends a 77W to both Guadalupe and Martinique (a combined population of less than 1 million). How can airlines sustain these services with such large planes to such small places?

What are loads like?
Where are the passengers coming from? Is it really that touristy?



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26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAirJamaica From Jamaica, joined Aug 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (4 years 4 months 2 hours ago) and read 5875 times:

Quoting will777 (Thread starter):
How can airlines sustain these services with such large planes to such small places?

The Gvt. of some of these islands pay the carriers subsidies to operate there. Eg. BA to SKB.



greenheart
User currently offlineweb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (4 years 4 months 2 hours ago) and read 5834 times:
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I know that KLs flight aren't daily for one, and it is a triangle route ie AMS-SXM-CUR-AMS. Also some of those islands aren't nations in thier own right but oversees teritories of European nation. Cargo probably is very high on those flights. Just my 2 cents.


Boiler Up!
User currently offlineweb500sjc From United States of America, joined Sep 2009, 735 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5722 times:
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Are there any other reasons than the ones posted above as to why this happenes?


Boiler Up!
User currently offlineAirJamaica From Jamaica, joined Aug 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5639 times:

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 2):
Also some of those islands aren't nations in thier own right but oversees teritories of European nation.

Correct. So there exist strong historical ties. Many islands in the Caribbean have some historical British connection before they became independent. Jamaica being one of them. Of course we are also a tourist dependent country so BA for example has been here for well over 60 years serving both KIN ( VFR ) & MBJ ( Leisure ). Additionally VS also serve both cities as well, and a variey of charters operate into MBJ from Europe. Other islands such as BGI historically has been popular with British vacationers.



greenheart
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8801 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5569 times:
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Quoting web500sjc (Reply 2):
I know that KLs flight aren't daily for one, and it is a triangle route ie AMS-SXM-CUR-AMS.

KL operates into CUR daily. KL operates AMS-SXM-CUR-AMS 3x weekly, AMS-AUA-CUR-AMS 2x weekly, and AMS-CUR-AMS 2x weekly. KL also operates into BON 6x weekly during the high season: AMS-BON-GYE-UIO-BON-AMS 5x weekly and AMS-SXM-BON-AMS weekly. The BON routings are fuel-stops for KLM.

Quoting web500sjc (Reply 2):
Also some of those islands aren't nations in thier own right but oversees teritories of European nation.

Regardless, for Winter 2010, AF will operate CDG-HAV 9x weekly, CDG-PUJ 5x weekly, CDG-SDQ 3x weekly. UN will operate DME-PUJ 5x weekly, VS will fly both LGW-HAV and LGW-POP twice weekly, etc.


User currently offlinebananaboy From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 1577 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5523 times:

As has been mentioned, there are strong historical and political ties between the Caribbean and Europe

In addition to the scheduled carriers that you have mentioned, there are many charter flights from Europe too which are (usually) packed to the gills with tourists. There are destinations which, as far as I am aware, have no major business or cultural link, but have developed on the basis of the major european travel companies building up huge businesses based on the back of low room rates at all-inclusive properties.

For example, Thomson alone have flights to Puerto Plata, Punta Cana and Casa de Campo, all in the Dominican Republic.

As well as land-based tourism, the UK cruise industry regularly charters flights to (usually) Barbados to enable clients to embark and sail in the Caribbean and avoid the extended immigration lines and sailing times from Miami or Fort Lauderdale.

Mark



All my life, I've been kissing, your top lip 'cause your bottom one's missing
User currently offlineSlinky09 From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2009, 827 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5523 times:

Quoting will777 (Thread starter):
What are loads like?
Where are the passengers coming from? Is it really that touristy?

Huge holiday traffic and lots of wealthy people with second homes.
Some flights meet cruise ships.
Immigrant populations in European countries with families in the Caribbean.
'Empire'-era relationships, there are still a number of British, French and Dutch dependencies in the area for example.
Occasional banking, e.g. Cayman Islands. and other business.

VS for example flies 400+ seat 747s to Havana, San Juan, Kingston, Montego Bay, Barbados, St Lucia, Antigua, Granada and Tobago. Some are hops from other stops however. These are among the most popular and successful routes.


User currently offlineAirJamaica From Jamaica, joined Aug 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5481 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 5):
VS will fly both LGW-HAV and LGW-POP twice weekly, etc.

LGW - POP ? If this is a new destination of theirs, when will it start ?



greenheart
User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1840 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5457 times:

Guadeloupe, Martinique, and part of St Marteen islands are French territories (other part of St Marteen is Dutch), explaining the traffic.Huge touristic and ethnic traffic. And you mentionned only AF flights to these destinations, but you need also to add Corsair and Air Caraibes who are operating multiple weekly services, even daily between ORY and these islands, with A330 or B747.

User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 880 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5401 times:

Guadeloupe and Martinique are French departments, at the same level as Normandy or Brittany. A lot of French people from Guadeloupe and Martinique are living in continental France. That's why AF has a least a daily B77W flight ORY-PTP (Guadeloupe) and ORY-FDF (Guadeloupe), sometimes increased to two daily flights for each island. Plus don't forget French Guyana, there is a daily ORY-Cayenne in AF A343/B77W.
As mentionned before Air Caraibes and Corsair are also operating at least a daily flight on these routes.
It's the same thing with Reunion Island (RUN) between Mauritius and Madagascar: it's a French department and there is a daily AF B77W ORY-RUN, a daily Air Austral B772 CDG-RUN and a daily Corsair B744 ORY-RUN.
There is a huge VFR, ethnic, tourist and cargo trafic between Paris, French cities and these French islands in the Caribbean and Indian Ocean.


User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8801 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5358 times:
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Quoting AirJamaica (Reply 8):
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 5):
VS will fly both LGW-HAV and LGW-POP twice weekly, etc.

LGW - POP ? If this is a new destination of theirs, when will it start ?

This was announced last November, "García Fernández anunció el acuerdo de cinco años al que arribó con la línea Virgen Atlantic, a través de su empresa touroperadora, Virgen Holliday, para la apertura de dos nuevos vuelos a partir del invierno del 2010 en la ruta Londres-Puerto Plata."
Link in Spanish: http://www.caribbeannewsdigital.com/...hina_israel_y_canada_en_el_turismo

Also, Aeroflot Russian Airlines will launch a new weekly non-stop service between SVO and PUJ next month.


User currently offlineAirJamaica From Jamaica, joined Aug 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4839 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 11):

Interesting. OK.



greenheart
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 13, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4734 times:

Quoting AirJamaica (Reply 4):
Many islands in the Caribbean have some historical British connection before they became independent. Jamaica being one of them. Of course we are also a tourist dependent country so BA for example has been here for well over 60 years

Of the 11 Caribbean islands served by BA (plus Bermuda), all except the Dominican Republic were once British colonies, and 3 still are (Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Turks & Caicos). Several were the source of large-scale immigration to the UK so there is VFR as well as tourist traffic. Several are also significant financial and offshore banking centers, especially Bermuda, Bahamas and Cayman Islands, so there is also some business traffic.


User currently offlineAndaman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4727 times:

Quoting Slinky09 (Reply 7):
Huge holiday traffic

Yes, even Finns are ready to travel 12-13h (via YHZ) to Dominican Republic and Cuba, on Finnair's cramped B752...


User currently offlinecesarv777 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 26 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4555 times:

Quoting SCL767 (Reply 11):
Quoting AirJamaica (Reply 8):
Quoting SCL767 (Reply 5):
VS will fly both LGW-HAV and LGW-POP twice weekly, etc.

LGW - POP ? If this is a new destination of theirs, when will it start ?

This was announced last November, "García Fernández anunció el acuerdo de cinco años al que arribó con la línea Virgen Atlantic, a través de su empresa touroperadora, Virgen Holliday, para la apertura de dos nuevos vuelos a partir del invierno del 2010 en la ruta Londres-Puerto Plata."
Link in Spanish: http://www.caribbeannewsdigital.com/...hina_israel_y_canada_en_el_turismo

Also, Aeroflot Russian Airlines will launch a new weekly non-stop service between SVO and PUJ next month.

Any thoughts as to why VS chose POP to start service in the Dominican Republic. Would think PUJ would see a greater demand. AA has significantly reduced service to POP while increasing service to PUJ (along with STI, LRM, and Samana).


User currently offline8b775zq From St. Kitts and Nevis, joined Aug 2005, 228 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 4555 times:

AirJamaica you need to check your facts before you post. Our Govt do not pay any subsidies to BA or to any other airline for that matter to fly to our federation. The BA flight is an add-on to the ANU flight. Matter of fact BA has just recently added a 2nd weekly flight in addition to the existing saturday flight.

User currently offlineAirJamaica From Jamaica, joined Aug 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4214 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
Of the 11 Caribbean islands served by BA (plus Bermuda), all except the Dominican Republic were once British colonies, and 3 still are (Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Turks & Caicos). Several were the source of large-scale immigration to the UK so there is VFR as well as tourist traffic. Several are also significant financial and offshore banking centers, especially Bermuda, Bahamas and Cayman Islands, so there is also some business traffic.

  

Quoting cesarv777 (Reply 15):
Any thoughts as to why VS chose POP to start service in the Dominican Republic. Would think PUJ would see a greater demand.

Many including myself would have thought PUJ would be on VS's route map before POP.

Quoting 8b775zq (Reply 16):
AirJamaica you need to check your facts before you post. Our Govt do not pay any subsidies to BA or to any other airline for that matter to fly to our federation. The BA flight is an add-on to the ANU flight. Matter of fact BA has just recently added a 2nd weekly flight in addition to the existing saturday flight.

I know that BA fly to SKB via ANU and have recently added a second weekly flight as well. Just that prior to them serving SKB there were several news paper articles stating that it was going to be a subsidized operation. If that isn't the case then I stand corrected.



greenheart
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 18, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3945 times:

It has been a few years - near 30 - since I was stationed on Antigua in the US Navy.

At that time there were almost 20,000 arrivals and departures per week of tourist on the island during the main season - November to April. 12-10,000 arrivals and departures per week the rest of the year.

That is a LOT of airplane seats filled by tourist. We had 2x daily service from New York and Miami by Pan Am. Daily service via San Juan by American. Daily service from the UK by a BA 747. I think four times weekly by Air Canada from Toronto.

People who lived on the island would complain about the difficulty of booking reasonably priced seats off the island because of the heavy load factors during the tourist season.

Update to 2010 and you have the European practice of twice or more as much vacation time as we folks in the United States. A very large percentage of European workers as compared to their counterparts in the US make a practice of taking a vacation for a week at a resort every year, or every two years.

That is a lot of seats, and the Caribbean islands market themselves heavily in Europe. Much more so than in the US.


User currently offlinechepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6213 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3717 times:

The IB SJU route for example (which at the moment is 3 X weekly) is largely there due to the historical ties between Puerto Rico and Spain. It also serves as the islands only scheduled link to Europe, in addition it is widely used by the Spanish community residing in the island and Puerto Ricans who live in Spain (mostly studying abroad or whom might have relatives still living there). I dont think the route gets much tourist traffic as Puerto Rico's tourism pales in comparison the DR and Cuba.

Regards,

Chepos



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8801 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3664 times:
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Quoting cesarv777 (Reply 15):
Any thoughts as to why VS chose POP to start service in the Dominican Republic. Would think PUJ would see a greater demand. AA has significantly reduced service to POP while increasing service to PUJ (along with STI, LRM, and Samana).

Currently, there are only 2 weekly flights between LGW and POP; whereas there are 4 weekly flights between LGW and PUJ. Also, AA doesn't operate into AZS.


User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3051 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3630 times:

Shame VS's weekly flight to SJU is over. Any news as to how the loads were?


"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offline8b775zq From St. Kitts and Nevis, joined Aug 2005, 228 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3558 times:

Ok AirJamaica we all make mistakes, if your info came from one of our local newspapers then you have to be careful as most tend to be filled with propaganda but just to go a little further on the subsidy issue... our govt is heavily in debt and has started curtailing spending. WINAIR sought subsidies in order to continue service to SKB but was denied. Only NEV complied with the request. The thing to keep in mind in this case is that WINAIR flies the SXM-SKB route which is quite busy and in my guess lucrative as LI has some 6-7 daily flights not to mention the many shoppers who go to SXM. WINAIR was also the designated airline to bring connecting passengers from SXM that would have connected from an AF flight that was to specifically target visitors to SKB however as of this dateI have no idea what has become of this arrangement. DL if I recall correctly probably had some subsidies in the initial stages but in recent months the loads seem to have been picking up as these flights arrive mostly full.

User currently offlineAirJamaica From Jamaica, joined Aug 2006, 2515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3522 times:

Quoting 8b775zq (Reply 22):
if your info came from one of our local newspapers then you have to be careful as most tend to be filled with propaganda but just to go a little further on the subsidy issue... our govt is heavily in debt and has started curtailing spending. WINAIR sought subsidies in order to continue service to SKB but was denied. Only NEV complied with the request. The thing to keep in mind in this case is that WINAIR flies the SXM-SKB route which is quite busy and in my guess lucrative as LI has some 6-7 daily flights not to mention the many shoppers who go to SXM. WINAIR was also the designated airline to bring connecting passengers from SXM that would have connected from an AF flight that was to specifically target visitors to SKB however as of this dateI have no idea what has become of this arrangement. DL if I recall correctly probably had some subsidies in the initial stages but in recent months the loads seem to have been picking up as these flights arrive mostly full.

Yes atleast one of the previous articles I read prior to BA's service to SKB was from your local newspaper. So it is really DL who initially was offered a subsidy. Non the less it is good that the BA service has been successful and that they have increased the frequency to 2x weekly.



greenheart
User currently offlineSCL767 From Chile, joined Feb 2006, 8801 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (4 years 3 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3500 times:
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Quoting 8b775zq (Reply 22):
WINAIR was also the designated airline to bring connecting passengers from SXM that would have connected from an AF flight that was to specifically target visitors to SKB however as of this dateI have no idea what has become of this arrangement.

WINAIR and Insel Air recently entered into a new partnership thus WINAIR has upgraded its website to allow passengers from the islands of Saba, St Eustatius and St Maarten to purchase tickets on Insel Air. Also, WINAIR will soon add all Insel Air routes to its travelling public.


25 Post contains links hummingbird : You need to check these quotes from your P.M.... http://www.sunstkittsonline.com/news...s-cost-of-services-affordable.html
26 cesarv777 : Thanks for the clarification. Could have sworn AZS had Eagle from SJU.
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