Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
FAA To Airline (crews): Straighten Up, Fly Right  
User currently offlinekelpKID From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 6408 posts, RR: 3
Posted (4 years 6 months 11 hours ago) and read 12383 times:

So, here's the latest edict coming down from the FAA:

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2010-04-25-pilots_N.htm

In summary, the FAA feels that, due to a grand total of one incident, airlines need to crack down on non-task related chitchat during the cruise phase   Okay, I can understand restricting the use of personal laptops and cell phones/pda's/etc, but not conversation.

Anyone else feel that this is a bit harsh? After all, the flight crew was disciplined appropriately (IMHO)-losing their job.

I can understand this during the takeoff, approach, and landing phases of flight, but at cruise? It isn't like there has been a rash of missed radio calls and planes overshooting their destination lately...after all, flight crews are human, and probably like to have a conversation amongst each other every now and again.


Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetmatt777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2812 posts, RR: 33
Reply 1, posted (4 years 6 months 4 hours ago) and read 11826 times:

Knee-jerk reaction.

I like how the FAA says it is voluntary, however not doing so can lead to investigation of your records. That is like my school telling me that something is voluntary, but if I don't volunteer to do it I can get written up for it.



No info
User currently offlinetinpusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 977 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (4 years 6 months 4 hours ago) and read 11728 times:

All this and yet fatigue and rest rule overhaul has been "at the top of the FAA's list" for how many decades? Give me a break! Communication is key to us being able to work together and now they want to curb that, but still let us fly tired! Brilliant!


"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21680 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (4 years 6 months 3 hours ago) and read 11544 times:

The article is kind of vague - it doesn't explicitly say that they want to make the whole flight a sterile cockpit environment (which would be very bad for safety), though it hints at it.

I'm not sure what's gotten into the FAA - I thought Babbitt was a sensible guy, but if that's really what they're proposing...wow. Perhaps it's coming down from above his pay grade.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (4 years 6 months 3 hours ago) and read 11523 times:

As a former FAA employee, I think FAA should shut up and clean their own house.

If FAA thinks more should be done, let FAA facilitate a meeting of the professional fliers, and work WITH, or stay out of the way of those professionals whilst they assess and create solutions to any REAL issues.



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (4 years 6 months 2 hours ago) and read 11383 times:

I don't disagree with the FAA on this one. I don't think that their asking for a sterile cockpit 100% of the time but it has been proven over and over again when things go wrong the sterile cockpit rule is ignored and one of the many contributing factors. I would not mind seeing some very tough wording coming down from the FAA to carriers about the enforcement of the sterile cockpit and at the carrier level it should be taken very seriously and enforced.
As far as at cruise, I think its perfectly fine to have a conversation with your coworker, just keep it professional and make sure that you are still flying the plane before all else. I am with the FAA on getting rid of cellphones, laptops, ipods, and other electronics in the cockpit, its just too distracting and it takes away from what the pilot is being paid to do. You have to remember that the pilots are at work, they are being paid to sit in that aircraft and monitor all the systems for the duration of the flight to make sure things are normal. Just like any other job pilots have to do what they are paid to do no matter how bored they get.

After the recent events I again agree with the FAA and think its time to start enforcing the rules that have made this industry one of the safest and a model for the world. I also think that its time to really find a good way to regulate what electronics go into the cockpit with pilots and how and when they can be used in flight. I am big on technology and thing the EFB is of great use in the cockpit but I think I can live without it if you are using that same computer to update your facebook status and check Anet at FL400.



/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineindolikaa From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (4 years 6 months 2 hours ago) and read 11243 times:

I've often wondered if the people in the FAA who make these kinds of decisions ever spent anytime in a cockpit.

The pilots I know are professionals who take their jobs seriously. They're smart and they're good at what they do. I would certainly think they're skilled enough at their jobs to have a conversation while in cruise flight. And having a laptop open in cruise flight really doesn't concern me that much, especially if both are present in the cockpit and the one behind the keyboard is not actually flying the plane.

I don't know, I tend to subscribe to the theory that the flight crew is competent enough to fly the plane and conduct themselves as human beings at the same time.



Vote for Pedro
User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9155 posts, RR: 76
Reply 7, posted (4 years 6 months 2 hours ago) and read 11178 times:

Quoting kelpKID (Thread starter):

In summary, the FAA feels that, due to a grand total of one incident, airlines need to crack down on non-task related chitchat during the cruise phase

This is the FAA inFO http://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviat...all_infos/media/2010/InFO10003.pdf

I do not think it is a good idea for pilots to be that distracted that radio calls and acars messages are missed for extended periods of time, and I do not believe that "non-task related chitchat", eating a meal etc would cause that. I hate it when the regulator has to come in have dictate what is common sense.

CX issued a notice to our crew to remind us all about this. In my view the number of distractions we get pre-flight are getting worse and not better, and the distractions are coming from ground staff, not the crew. Crew know when the workload is high, "non-task related chitchat" in my view helps with CRM and keeping alert.

Maybe I should pull the letter out next time I have a line check, and see what reaction I get !!!!!



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineaviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1357 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (4 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 11098 times:

Pilots are human beings, not robots, and if anything these draconian pronouncements work * against * safety. The idea that a pilot has to sit there, for hours on end, absolutely one-hundred percent engaged .... that's not only totally unrealistic, it's brain-frying. Distraction is * necessary *. It allows you to focus better when you really need to. Why do other safety-sensitive professions seem to grasp this intuitively, but not aviation?


PS



Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
User currently offlineas739x From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6161 posts, RR: 24
Reply 9, posted (4 years 6 months 1 hour ago) and read 11022 times:

Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 1):
Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 4):

100% agreed.

In my opinion, all my times of flying jump-seat I think that conversation (along with coffee) is the best way to keep you awake and alert. It would be mind numbing to have the crew spend all their time staring at the instruments while the a/c fly's itself.



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 9789 times:

Airline (crews) To FAA: Do it yourself!


"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlineCass From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 28 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9316 times:

This made me think of a CRM class that I took. The yerkes-dodson arousal curve shows that optimum performance is achieved when stimulation is optimal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerkes–Dodson_law

I think having a sterile cockpit in cruise would have a major impact on CRM and alertness. It discourages team building and basically shuts down the brain.

   to the Feds


User currently offlineLuv2cattlecall From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 9316 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Even flying a highly-needy aircraft like the C172 gets monotonous after awhile, and XM radio and/or my Kindle have done a great job keeping my brain at a "ready" state, instead of a half-asleep, lethargic one. At cruise, I could only imagine how "boring" the front office in an A320 could get - I fail to see how this will help more than it will potentially harm.


When you have to breaststroke to your connecting flight...it's a crash!
User currently offlineseven3seven From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 318 posts, RR: 23
Reply 13, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8920 times:

UAL747DEN I sure am glad you dont run things. You'd be a terrible dictator.

I carry my laptop with me on every trip. I am a professional though and it never comes out on the flightdeck. There were already rules in place anyway prior to the Northwest incident which prohibit its use in flight.

You would like to put a blanket rule in place that says I cannot bring my laptop on the road? Or it has to stay in the cabin? Ridiculous. Punish the guys who didn't fly the airplane first. It doesnt matter what they were doing other than that.



My views are mine alone and are not that of any of my fellow employees, officers, or directors at my company
User currently offlineairplanenut From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 658 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8898 times:

Sterile cockpits are used at times when there is lots going on to engage a pilot--busy radios, maneuvering, etc. At cruise, there's little if anything to keep someone engaged--autopilot is flying and the radio calls are few and far between. Pilots shouldn't be staring blankly at a screen and out the window for hours. As has been said, that would drive them nuts and be to the detriment of their ability to stay focused.


Why yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist...
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1992 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8837 times:

IMHO, the FAA is going too far here. They need to find a middle point between the 100% sterile cockpit and having gross distractions in the cockpit. I agree with the FAA in the case of electronic devices, but you can't expect the pilots don't talk about non-work topics for hours and hours. Maybe if you are in a bad weather situation you can reduce the conversation to keep the aircraft flying safely, but I can't imagine a normal crew making a quiet transcon and never talking about his life or contingent topics.
Is just moronic to expect that , unless you put in that cockpit two guys who hate each other ( bye bye, CRM ), or unless you only hire pilots with a personality "ala Sheldon Cooper " ( again no CRM ).... I honestly fail to see how the FAA expects this happening in the real world.

Rgds.

G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21680 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8781 times:

Quoting indolikaa (Reply 6):
And having a laptop open in cruise flight really doesn't concern me that much, especially if both are present in the cockpit and the one behind the keyboard is not actually flying the plane.

   One laptop in use is okay, as long as the pilot using it is kept up-to-speed by the other every so often. Two laptops in use...not so much.

Again, it's pretty much common sense stuff.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2039 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6131 times:

Quoting indolikaa (Reply 6):
especially if both are present in the cockpit and the one behind the keyboard is not actually flying the plane.

What if they're both looking at it?



No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offline727forever From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 793 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6032 times:

This is a pandering overreaction.

Pilots are human beings, not robots, and if anything these draconian pronouncements work * against * safety. The idea that a pilot has to sit there, for hours on end, absolutely one-hundred percent engaged .... that's ludicrous. Distraction is a necessary part of being able to focus when

Quoting zeke (Reply 7):
CX issued a notice to our crew to remind us all about this. In my view the number of distractions we get pre-flight are getting worse and not better, and the distractions are coming from ground staff, not the crew. Crew know when the workload is high, "non-task related chitchat" in my view helps with CRM and keeping alert.

  


I can't tell you the number of times we have to stop and restart checklists because of interuptions from customer service, ramp personnel, flight attendants, etc.

This whole thing is nothing short of politicians mandating the FAA to do something strong to make the government look good. It's all crap. First, the FAA needs to get the flight time and duty reg's overhauled. It's only been at the top of the list for 40 years. Second, rather than more knee jerk regulations, update the Sterile Cockpit rule to something that actually applies to the operating environment of the modern airliner. Sterile Cockpit was designed as a knee jerk reaction in an era when airplanes started and taxied straight to the runway and tookoff. In todays mega-hub and spoke environment taxi times often exceed an hour. The rule states that anytime after commencement of the before start checklist while on the ground and after takeoff until 10,000' and then again from 10,000' until reaching the gate and finishing the shutdown checklist there is to be no eating, drinking, or conversation that does not pertain to the flight. This rule being so inclusive has resulted in the entire thing just being ignored. The rule needs to keep the below 10,000' stipulations but allow for conversation when the aircraft is stopped with the parking brake set.

Additionally if they do go ahead and make the whole flight sterile, they are asking for dissaster. Most times the idle chit chat is the only thing that is keeping the crew awake after getting up at 3:30am, eating crappy airport food, flying multiple legs, sitting in a hot,noisy, very bright environment scanning and making decisions. Yeah, fatigue is very much real. Without something to stay stimulated everyone will be falling asleep much like the Mesa crew a few years ago from HNL-KOA. But hey, at least the FAA will have done something.

727forever



727forever
User currently offlineyodobashi From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2007, 238 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5930 times:

I simply cannot imagine that an aircraft would miss its destination by 150 miles due to pilots not concentrating.

Depending on what stage of the flight this allegedly occurred at, it could've taken at least 15 minutes and possibly much more to overfly by 150 miles .... failure to comply with ATC instructions and to make any attempts to descend for this amount of time would surely have alerted ATC to a possible hijack situation and involved scrammbling of intercept aircraft??



"The World is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page"
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 20, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5893 times:

Apart from the use of unneeded gadgets during flight,Conversation is an important tool to keep alert & awake especially on Night & long duration flights.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinejhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6204 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 5170 times:

Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 1):
I like how the FAA says it is voluntary, however not doing so can lead to investigation of your records. That is like my school telling me that something is voluntary, but if I don't volunteer to do it I can get written up for it.

The IRS says paying your taxes is "voluntary" too, but we all know what that means...



Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offline0NEWAIR0 From United States of America, joined May 2007, 939 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 5008 times:

Quoting jhooper (Reply 21):

Quoting Jetmatt777 (Reply 1):
I like how the FAA says it is voluntary, however not doing so can lead to investigation of your records. That is like my school telling me that something is voluntary, but if I don't volunteer to do it I can get written up for it.

The IRS says paying your taxes is "voluntary" too, but we all know what that means...

The logic behind the tax being "voluntary" is that individuals, not the government, calculate their tax liability. It's BS logic but I believe that is their official position. They also say that "no one is forced to mail in their tax form" but we all know that if we do mail it in nothing will happen to us and if we don't mail it in fines and jail time - in jails that are being paid for by people who did pay their taxes - will follow.



"The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams."
User currently offlinedavescj From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 2307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (4 years 5 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4861 times:

I suspect that NTSB may have some influence on this. Remember a few months back when the train de-railed while the engineer was texting?

in Los Angeles
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN0152835520081002

in Boston a similar incident
http://www.boston.com/news/local/bre..._news/2009/05/ems_49_taken_to.html


I suspect that this is part of the motivation. I'm not saying this will fix the problem. I think what others said about overhauling hours, regs, and other interruptions need a good revision also. But this is the squeaky wheel, so getting the grease.

Dave



Can I have a mojito on this flight?
User currently offlineCOS777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 90 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (4 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4613 times:

Instead of making pilots sit there practically chained to their seat twiddling their thumbs for several hours, why not provide things like DirecTV and laptops with internet? With ADS-B on the horizon, there is the potential of many ATC communications being done using the equivalent of text messages. You can simply have a notification pop up on the screen when you get instructions; can't be that hard to do since MS Outlook does it when I get an email. You can also integrate messages from the airplane computers into the screens as well. I would imagine it would be much easier to enter things into the FMS using a laptop, and you could also use the laptop for things such as checking the weather along the route. Many GPS units tell you when you are approaching a way-point, so similarly if you are too high for where you are on a route, the system can ask you about it, and if no response start sounding alarms.

Yes, I know it's a crazy idea. It would be a publicity nightmare, but it could be a way to keep the pilots attentive in a controlled setting.

"If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."


25 Mir : A lot of those functions are already integrated into EFBs, which will no doubt become more prevalent in the near future. I don't think that televisio
26 indolikaa : Good point. It depends on the material being viewed and the aircraft's current environment. If I'm the PF and I look over at the laptop being operate
27 Post contains images kelpKID : How many airliners still have an NDB receiver built in where you can listen to your favorite AM station using the IDENT function?
28 aviateur : You could do this on any airliner with an HF radio. Many have them. Certainly all long-range aircraft have them.
29 UAL747DEN : I don't disagree with you, I would be a horrible dictator, come to think of it I dont know of one good dictator. As much as you would like to disagre
30 413X3 : quite interesting how quickly the FAA tries to create preventive measures when it comes to anything except work hours, sick, rest, etc. I wonder if th
31 787atPAE : This is the first time that I know of, where the FAA reacted after nobody died. The FAA seems to be getting better, in my experience. As an aerospace
32 lowrider : My first thought after reading this as well. If the FAA wants to create a "safety culture" how about implementing a mechanism to prevent airlines fro
33 DocLightning : You have said it better than I could have. Now, my read of the article did not indicate that the FAA wants no "chit-chat" for the entire cruise, but
34 Post contains links planemaker : Just imagine what it will be like in 15-20 years with only one pilot on board... Unmanned flight tests to advance airline reduced-crew concepts GE Av
35 413X3 : I'm pretty sure this is all still blow back from the Colgan Air crash, the NW pilots falling asleep ahem err I mean on their laptops was just the fin
36 indolikaa : The FAA shouldn't have to step in and babysit, nor should they have to enact draconian rules to ensure the incompetent don't kill other people. They
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
What To Do When Your Airline Goes Belly Up (Varig) posted Mon Aug 28 2006 20:30:05 by 777fan
AR: FAA Makes Exception & Lets 744s Fly To The U.S posted Sat Apr 2 2005 16:34:04 by Luisde8cd
6) Peter Max.. Still Working Hard To Fly Right posted Thu Sep 9 2004 06:35:36 by Iahcsr
Groups Wants FAA To Lift No-fly Zone At Disney posted Sat Jun 28 2003 18:17:09 by Jhooper
What Pictures Make You Want To Fly Right Now? posted Tue Oct 23 2001 01:15:53 by EGGD
To The Yanks: Would You Fly This Airline? posted Sun Apr 8 2001 21:49:21 by Aviatsiya
Delta Using FAA To Delay Flights posted Fri Jan 8 2010 06:08:40 by Boydatageek
UAL Chief Sees New Route To Airline Mergers: FT posted Wed Oct 28 2009 04:57:39 by Jawake
An Introduction To Airline Slogans posted Fri Aug 21 2009 17:25:08 by Psa188
FAA To Pilots: Cell Phones Off, Please posted Wed Feb 18 2009 05:35:00 by Flightwatcher